In 1976, the English poet Dom Moraes met Dr K.V. Puttappa in his house Udayaravi in Vontikoppal, in a brief encounter which shows that Kuvempu wasn’t quite the rigid mascot of Kannada chauvinism his self-appointed spokesmen have turned him into.
***
Dr K.V. Puttappa was at one time the Vice Chancellor of Mysore University, but this is not his main claim to distinction, since he is one of the generation of Kannada writers, like Bendre and Karanth, whose work is now being recognised all over the country. He is a stocky man with white hair.
We met him in his, quiet, comfortable house, and there he talked in a quiet and comfortable voice.
“My earliest poems,” he said, “while I was at college, were written in English, and influenced by the English romantic poets. They have now been collected, some at least, in a book called Alien Harp. I wrote in English until I met an Irish poet, James Cousins, who was living in Adyar. He came here on a lecture tour, read my poems, and told me, “Why don’t you write in your own language?” So I started to write in Kannada, even though I thought Cousins was wrong.”
His output, to date, includes some 20 volumes of Kannada verse, which I am incompetent to criticise, though an epic poem Ramayana Darshanam has won a national award. This work is being tanslated, Dr Puttappa said, into Hindi, English, and for some reason Sanskrit, a language I would have thought few people read nowadays.
However, Dr Puttappa seems very keen on Sanskrit: “Some of my lyrics have been translated into Sanskrit,” he told me, “and I have sent them to Sanskrit scholars in Japan, the USA, and Holland.” An audience of Sanskrit scholars would seem, to me, a somewhat limited audience, but Dr Puttappa seemed happy with it. “Because I had an intimate knowledge of English metre,” he said, “I was able to write sonnets in iambic pentameter in Kannada. I was the first poet to write sonnets in Kannada. Of course, others are now trying.”
During his time as Vice Chancellor of the University, betwen 1956 and 1960, he introduced Kannada as a teaching medium, and produced books of instruction in Kannada.
“Generally,” he said, “students are now far more intelligent and conscious of the world than they were in my day. The old frustrations are not there any more: the old values are not in favour. But now the better people want to emigrate. They go abroad and then they stay there. Suppose they had stayed here, what prospects would they have to earn well and live a better life? My own son and daughter are abroad: my son in Australia, my daughter in the USA.
“‘If we create a situation where they can stay here and prosper, as we may be able to since the Emergency, the better people will stay here.”
Shortly after this we left him in his quiet house, fenced in by photographs and awards, silent.
***
Excerpted from The Open Eyes, a journey through Karnataka by Dom Moraes, illustrations by Mario Miranda. Published by the Government of Karnataka, 1976
nothing in this post is news. And in any case, I cant see how this can justify a pompous,
“…which shows that Kuvempu wasn’t quite the rigid mascot of Kannada chauvinism his self-appointed spokesmen have turned him into….”
EnakkEn sambandha editru saahEbrE?
LikeLike
@ sisya, pls read the sentence ‘“and I have sent them to Sanskrit scholars in Japan, the USA, and Holland.”… isnt that news enough ???? guess he didnt find good indian sanskrit scholars who matched his high standards …as usual ‘white is right ‘
LikeLike
The advise by Cousins would have ignited the mind of Kuvempu to write in Kannada. Even if he were to have continued with English, what is wrong with it? Cousins advice could be jeevanadhalli ondu thiruvu..
His keeness for translating his epic into Sanskrit shows his respect and understanding of the great language which is commendable.
Good to know his views on brain drain, but at the same time did he question or oppose the root cause openly? not sure on that
LikeLike
as if you don’t know!
It is only these OraTagaras who have misappropriated him as the patron saint of their OraTas!
LikeLike
Kuvempu bagge tilkolloke namage yavano Dr Moreas barda yavudo article beka? Anyways there is nothing new in the article..Why don’t you guys read what kuvempu had written? Tejaswi ‘annana nenapu’ pustakadalli bareda haage, kannada vishaya bandaga avru englishannu pootani antha jaridaru..aadre knowledge vishaya bandre englishna agatyda bagge yu maatanadidaru’ I don’t remember exact lines….Kuvempu is a more complex character..It’s foolish to think you understood kuvempu by reading an article .. Kuvempu believed in “manuja mata, vishva patha” (mankind’s religion is the universal path of all people), a philosophy reflected in several of his poems and essays…But Kuvempu also said, ‘elladaru irru, enthadaru iru, endendigu nee kannadavagiru’.. Vishvamanavanaaguvu ellavannu bittu alla, nammatanavannu ulisikondu…
LikeLike
@ Kiran, if u look at the year of this interview ( 1976) I dont think that the issue of brain drain had some much traction which it has today and dom moraes in all probability wouldnt have questioned him on it ( of course this is a guess as I dont have access to the book which might have the full interview , the book incidentally costs 30 USD !!!!)
LikeLike
( This comment is strictly for kannadigas and anyone non kannadigas …Move over bro. )
This post is just irrelevant and some words ‘wasn’t quite the rigid mascot of Kannada chauvinism his self-appointed spokesmen have turned him into’
is only whip up passions and discussion on irrelavant topics.
If you want more hits on your blog there are several burning issues which are more social and economical in the country that can be raised.
For the past few months posts has been made on ‘Kannada chauvinism’
, KRV ,Casteism ….neevenu Kannada Karnataka Udhara maadbeku anthidheera athava Kannada Janaralli odaku moodisbeku anthidheera .
You Could have had serious discussion on the Cauvery and how the judgement could affect the Mandya and Mysore district basin. People would have posted facts and figures and everyone could have learnt about its past and how in future could affect irrigation and drinking water projects.
Instead you chose to raise issue on KRV and their methodology .
Namma Jana nae namage muLLU .
If you really want to discuss on literary works in kannada .Post some wonderful prose or quote from the rich kannada literature of these giants.
Lets all enjoy and do some reviews . With not many people reading kannada literature these days atleast it will be refreshing .
Otherwise contribution on your blog are just
1. Naanu MOORU Huli Nodidhe ( I saw three Tigers )
2. naanu Vontikoppal nalli Kaalu murukonde ( I broke my leg in Vontikoppal)
3. Yaav paper navru yaarna ODDHU aachaegae haakidru( Which Journo was kickedoff in a coup)
4. Yaava Karnataka Business man yaar jothe Maligidha ( which Ka.businessman was caught sleeping with whom?)
5. Building kallu hodudhru , Rasthe block maadidhru , Photo chennagidhya etc etc .
If you only want hits on your BLOG . Resort to Porn stuff that will make you more popular .
LikeLike
Let us leave Bendre,Karanth,Kuvempu and Masti alone where they are .
LikeLike
DG and others…some times the truth is uncomfortable. I cannot for the life of me imagine Kuvempu writing anything in English–whatever may be his abilities in writing in English. I am sure he would not have made any sense to readers like me who are Kannadigas. If Cousins gave him the right advice, we should be happy and thankful, that he did. And he saw through Kuvempu’s bad poetry in English! Cousins gey nanu chiraruni.
That said, …”Kuvempu wasn’t quite the rigid mascot of Kannada chauvinism his self-appointed spokesmen have turned him into…” words were provocative…:)
I also get this strange feeling that the same literary greats felt it was their duty to master English and create literature in English! That explains, Kuvempu’s English affectations.
LikeLike
DB : Maybe jeevarathna,athamsakshi,bapu or gauri satya or whoever read English Poetry of Kuvempu should judge his quality .
But on a different note , Whats Churumuri upto these days? Incite passions
get more Hit ? Is this responsible journalism?
Swalpa Thogoli saar :-)
LikeLike
I also have this good feeling that, Cousins may have been familiar with RK Narayan’s literary output. He must have thought, “My God! One RK Narayan for a millennium is sufficient. I must save this nice Kannada man, Putts from taking the same ‘Railway Clerk’s English’ route.”
LikeLike
DG
Eega office alli iddheeni thagollakke agalla!
Kuvempu English poetry nanu odhheney helthini—astu chennagiralikke illa.
Aaaga kaala haagitthu–English gotthilla andhrey yenu mujugara! adhakkey namma Putts kooda English Krishi madthayiddhey antha helikey kottiddhu!
Ivarella original English poets Byron, Shelley, TS Eliot ivarannu copy athwa nakalu madi adhey feelings ittu bariyo anthawaru.
LikeLike
…”jeevarathna,athamsakshi,bapu or gauri satya or whoever read English Poetry of Kuvempu should judge his quality…”
Ivarella yawa English odidhharey antha nanigey gotthilla saar
Jeevarathna Mysore Gazetteer poorthi aredhu kuddhu bittidharey
Bapu yawaglu Star Of Mysore gey letters baritharey
Gowri Sathya Mysore samasye bagge heltha irtharey
LikeLike
Lets Ask Karnataka Lover ( KL) then …… :)
DB .nimdhu yaava time jonu??
LikeLike
Kanditha! Please ask KL
Namdu Mountain Time Saar!
LikeLike
KL, MedhaLge kai haakthare…che Brain ge spoon
1 Hour hindhe..
LikeLike
I think the Churumuri Team and some readers are PRO-BENDRE and Anti-Kuvempu . Going by all previous posts .
LikeLike
DG
Ayyo, irli bidi saar. IMLO, writing poetry is quite easy! If some one says, Bendre is a greater poet, I say, “why not?”
We don’t have to defend Putts. Awara sathay awarenney kapadutthey!
I sent word through NM…awaranna keli
Firstu, thumba pro-RKN idhru. Naanu swalpa aa illusion kadimay madiddhini
LikeLike
adhu ‘sathya’ irbekithhu
LikeLike
mAnya dhIrendra goOpal mattu doDDa buddhiyavare,
namma mEle yAke svAmi kOpa!
LikeLike
Rathajeevi awarey
Kopa yelli saar? Sumney swalpa maja
LikeLike
Rathnajeevi awarey
Kopa yelli saar? Sumney swalpa maja astey!
LikeLike
why do we worry?
Chief honcho of KRV wants to put his moothi on all banners and propaganda materials… pray all good people are spared from this ignominy of misappropriation of their photos/sketches/quotes.
This is turning from OraTa on behalf of khannada para shangaTanes to war of buDakaTTus. :|
LikeLike
>>”@ sisya, pls read the sentence ‘“and I have sent them to Sanskrit scholars in Japan, the USA, and Holland.”… isnt that news enough ???? guess he didnt find good indian sanskrit scholars who matched his high standards …as usual ‘white is right ‘”…
No. That is not news. It is not even news material. Even if it was, can you please explain to me how it will lead one to ‘logically’ conclude that “kuvempu was not the rigid mascot of kannada chauvinism….” . Do you mean that because Kuvempu sent his works to Sanskrit scholars abroad for review(cant see what could be wrong with that?) or because he started off his writing career with English poetry(this ‘news’ is as stale as it can get), he was NOT a proud Kannadiga? EnakkEn sambandha ree swami?
Having said that, yes, Kuvempu certainly is not/was not the mascot of Kannada chauvinism, for ‘Kannada chauvinism’ is an oxymoron in itself. Just because a person with an agenda makes gratuitous use of the word ‘chauvinism’, doesnt mean he’s right. If he’s pointing to the likes of KRV and calling it ‘chavinism’, then I dont know what to say. KRV if anything, represents everything that a proud Kannadiga ought to emulate.
And somebody said , “OraaTagaararu”. Self effacing sarcasm apart, he’d do well to realise that Kannada still survives thanks ‘only’ to these ‘OraaTagaararu’ and their ilk. They’ve kept the language alive by “speaking it”. If only they had parents as well read and/or as socio-economically well off as yours were, they too probably could have put up the faux accent many of your ilk put up(accents of many ‘ohh so cool’ Kannadiga girls in Bengaluru is a case in point.)
‘OraaTagaararu’ anta vyangya aaDteeralla, adu innobbaranna baiyakke prayatna paDtideerO, illa nim pratishTe hecchaskoLo prayatnavO? Kannadakke neevu kisdirOdu En swami?
aa ‘OraaTagaararige’ irOdralli kaal bhaaga kaaLji-abhimana nimma so called ‘hOraaTagaararige’ iddiddre, ivattu naDu, nuDi, jala, gaDi antha ishtondu pardaaTa irtirlilla. haraaj haaki tammanna taavu maarkoMDirOdu yaarO… kai tOrsOdu yaarannO. kOti beNNe kaddu mEke mootige orsittaMte. huh.
The biggest danger that India faces today is not corruption, not illiteracy, not environmental degradation, not ‘chauvinism'(sic). None of those. It is infact, ‘elitism’. ‘Elitism’ threatens to be the next casteism. And this evil is being spearheaded by the likes of TOI and NDTV and most of the English channels. Subservient editors like KP are just adding to it. To what avail? Nobody knows. Shame on the TOIsation of the Indian media.
LikeLike
Sisya
Chennagh heldhey bidu siva!
Namigey eega KRV ildhey hodhrey yella sarwanasha aag tha itthu!
LikeLike
Sisya Quotes
“The biggest danger that India faces today is not corruption, not illiteracy, not environmental degradation, not ‘chauvinism’(sic). None of those. It is infact, ‘elitism’. ‘Elitism’ threatens to be the next casteism. And this evil is being spearheaded by the likes of TOI and NDTV and most of the English channels. Subservient editors like KP are just adding to it. To what avail? Nobody knows. Shame on the TOIsation of the Indian media.”
100% True
LikeLike
svalpha narayanha ghowdra bhaasaNa khELi biTThu maatanaaDhi shahebre!
nAnenu nan mootina pustakada mudreesi adanna “pradaanha manthri”ge koDbekaa? athava mooru hottu camera munde hallu ginjtaa avaranthe avara madhuravada bhasheyalli svayamprashamse maaDikoLLabekA?
kuvempuravarDene vyavaharisiddini, nangotthu avaru hegiddru antha, haage ee mahashayara jottegu vaartalApa maaDideeni adakke hELiddu ee vichaarana.
aa vaTal nagaraja nODi asht baayi badkotare adre avara kshetra yaava stithinalli ide?
kannaDa, karnatakapara nijavaagi duDDidyoru alooru venkatarayarathara irabeku,
idee karnAtaKada yellarnu uddhara maaDakke horaTa avaru, tamma constituency kade svalpa gamnisadara kELi… bekkidre hOgi nODi yentha sustithili ide aa jaaga antha.
LikeLike
Aythu bidi swami ..bari ‘RAYARU’gaLu maathra Karnatakkakke dudiyodhu .
Yaake andre sabhya bhaashe maathadtharalla adhikke .
vorataagi maathadho KRV,KANNADA senae yenu kisyalla…
Neevu Politeaagi maathaadi Kannadana uLisi BeLasi .
aadhre Kuvempu,bendre,maasthi,karanthara bagge maathadokke yaargu yogyathe yilla
..avaranna avara paadige bittu bidi
LikeLike
“svalpha narayanha ghowdra bhaasaNa khELi biTThu maatanaaDhi shahebre!”
kELidini. Eneega? a-kara ha-kara uchcharaNe sari iralla… Eneega? aadare avarige irOdralli ardhanoo abhimana nimagilvE! avarugaLu yaarU nim “h”OraaTagaararaMte software companyli duDD eNastirOr alla… anEka jana avarugaLa paiki dinagooli maaDOru… kannadada kelasakke dinagooli biTTu bartare… tam mEle ‘attempt to murder’ casegaL haakaskotaare, courtu kacheri alitaare… ishtaagoo kannadada kelasa aMdre muMd baMd niltaare… iMthavaranna loafers annO thara portray maaDo nimage, nimmanthavarige dhikkaarvirali.
hOgali, nim “h”OraaTagaarraadaru, kaDedu guDDe haakirOdEnide? avarugaLige hOraaTakkoo bhanuvaaranE barbEku… ishtaagi dinagoolinoo alla. aa bhanuvaarada dinanoo bengaLooralli irO saavira software companyna pratinidhisO haage companyge talaa obbaraMte kooDa sEralla/sEralilla. thoo nim “h”OraaTagaarra janmakke.
LikeLike
Ravi – do you understand the word grammar at all? Don’t wash your dirtly linen in public! Grammar is a compilation of the nuances of a language AS THEY EXIST, and NOT AS THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO EXIST – according to a handful few.
It’s high time people like you understand that the so-called “ha-kaara – a-kaara bheda” does not exist on the tongues of more than half of Karnataka. Nor does the concept of a “mahaapraaNa”.
Just because a few “baavi kappe’s” write down how kannada ought to be, kannada doesn’t become what they prescribe!
For a first course on Kannada Grammar, refer Dr. Shankar Bhat’s “Kannadakke Beku Kannadadde Vyakarana”.
And as to KRV and Narayana Gowda, take it for granted that it is they who speak the real Kannada. The likes of you are contaminated by Sanskrit, but alas not a drop of its spiritual literature has had any influence on you!
KRV is on a roll. Narayana Gowda is on a roll. Stop them if you can!
LikeLike
Kannada vyAkaraNa pitaamaha Ravi avare, modalu nimma kaalige aDDa beeLabEku. ondu gaade kELiddeera? “hottege hittilde hodru, juttige mallige ante…”.
karanatakada janara aLivu, uLivige sankata bandiro samayadalli, neevu bereyavara mataado grammarru, avaru haakoLLo batte, avara chitra anta tamma paanditya toriso kelasa maaDa badalu, atleast KRV horaatagaararu haakoLo chappali tayaariso kelsa maaDidre swalpa oLitu ansutte. yaakandre eshTo jana horaatagaararu, tamma chappali kittuhogOdannu gamanisade Kannadigara aLivugaagi horaadtaa nadestiddaare.
nimma yogyate/paanditya enu/eshTu mattu elli upayoga eMdu tiLidu maataaDuvudu oLLe abhyAsa anta tiLkoLLi.
LikeLike
ravi saahebare, kannada-karnatakakke ivattu bekiruvudu mundaalatva. mundaalatva endare nimage tilidideye?
ondu kanasu / gurigaagi ella kannadigarannu samghatisi jaagruthagolisuvudu, kannada-karnatakakke anyaayavaadaga pratibhatisuvudu, naadina ella varga / stharadha janarannu jotege tegedukondu hoguvudu, praamanikavaagi raajiyillade siddhantakke bhaddhavaagiruvudu, ee ella kelasigaligaagi tamma jeevanada bahu mukhya bhaagavannu mudupaagiduvu, itare, itare. ee ella gunagalu Narayana Gowdaralli ide. adanna nodi.
adu bitttu, mudranavaada karapatradalli avara photo irodhu sariyilla, avara uccharaneyalli dosha ide – iste aagoytala nimma aalochane, swalpa beliri swami. its time that you grow up. bahala baalishavaagide nimma maathu.
LikeLike
i was wondering how long before someone referred to bhaTTara KBKV.
as academically rewarding as shankara bhaTTara thesis is on KBK vyaakarana, empricism shows that concious rejection of sandhis has resulted in some very phonetically crude shravana in public discourse. there is nothing in his thesis that fundamentally challenges the genius of paNini and his asthaadhyaya, and bhaTTaru prolly never meant to challenge it. but i was sure that revisionists would exploit it these phyrric semantic battles and sure enough rameshe gowdru promptly supplies.
he ought to enlighten us if the gaambheerya that written kannada has could be sustained without this universalizing traasa bhedaaatita grammar?
even in spoken kannada why should the phonetically variant dharwad kannada or karaavaLi kannada accept norms based in politics? naavu hoppOdelli (hodogodu+elli sandhi-ize that) antha neevu namage heLoda?
KBKV would be called revisionism if it were not aligned to certain agenda.
maNNU maNNe, kongru tindru antha naavoo tinnabaaradu.
don’t get me wrong, traasa mukti bagge atyanta kaaLaji ullavanu naanu. aadare bareva kannadakke iruva advithiya gaambheerya uLiya bekaadare
traasaatheeta vyakarana beku.
LikeLike
i have no problems with n gowdru’s ucchaara. peddling bhaTTara KBKV in the garb of protecting kannada is what got my goat.
LikeLike
Swamy Ravi avare,
Nimma maathu keLi nagabeko athava aLabeko nanage gottagta illa. Narayana gowdaru uccharaNe sariyaagi maadolla aMta heLi nimma bhaasha paanditya toriso neevu avaru maado keLsada bagge maatra maatadolla. Ivattu kannada cinemage theatres sigtaa ive andre avattu KRV maadida horatadinda. Ivattu beLagaaviyalli MES baala mudirkondu ide andre adu KRV inda. Idannu artha maadikolluvashtu saamanya jnaana beLisikoLLi amele nimma bhaasha jnana torisi. Get your fundamentals right before commenting on topics like this!!!!!!!!!!!!
LikeLike
nimma gamanakke illi ondu email attach maadta ideeni. oDDoDDagi maataaDo ka.ra.ve. yaava reeti kannada uLisiddaare nODi.
TAN avara naalige sariyaagi horaLadirabahudu aadare avara hesarau mattu sangatane hEge kannaDada kelasa maaDistive nODi.
elli neevu shuddavaagi samskruta maataaDi enu kisiddiiri hELi.
keLagina email odi. ka. ra. vE jotegooDi.
Vasant wrote:
To: it_kannadigaru@yahoogroups.com
From: Vasant
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 11:51:02 +0530
Subject: [it_kannadigaru] Big Bazaar Katriguppe li aad experience
snehitare,
ninne dina,, naanu beLigge Big Bazaar, Katriguppe kadey hogidde,, aa hottalli alli bari hindi haadu haakidda,, naanu hogi billing counter li kannada haaDu haakoke kELide,, adakke aatha nayavagi Customer Support Desk ge call maadoke hELida. naanu hogi call maaDida mele aatha kannada haaDu haakida. I was really suprised to see his immidiate response. Then, I spoke to that billing desk person ( who was also a accha kannadiga),, he said,, last week there was a big fight at big bazaar as few customers insisted on playing kannada songs…fearing that they might be from Ka,Ra,Ve,, these big bazaaris played our songs. aadree 1 vishaya diTa.. yenandre,, naavella voggaTTagi hejje itre yentha anya bhashikara daaLi nu himmeTTisbahudu antha…
vandanegaLu
Jai karnataka
Vasant Shetty
Bengalooru
LikeLike
@@RAVI,
Dont just talk rubbish without knowing things properly..
Karnataka Rakshana Vedike is the only honest pro-kannada organization which is striving hard for the state.
We are fortunate enough to have Karnataka Rakshana Vedike and its leader T.A.NaarayaNa gowDa.
KRV and Narayana gowda, All true kannaDigas are with you….Go ahead with your great work
LikeLike
@Ravi
Your comments on the “A-kara- Ha-kara” shows your lack of understanding of the language and its growth. Its lefts no wonder that you too hail from the wagon who are imperialists to Sanskrit.
The language has many diversions, for your kind information the words which use “HA kara” were once originally had something else. For example “HAALU-milk was once PAALU, the same word you can see in Tamil and Telugu. The variance in the language is very much valid. Try to accept the fact and get a life rather blowing the same old whistle …
@Churumuri
Unnecessarily criticizing the activits may get some visitors to your blog,but thats too cheap.if you are planning for google ads,try something better.
LikeLike
ravi..yelli guruve ..berae kade post maadtheera ..yee kade thale nu haakila
LikeLike
tarle subba wrote –
as academically rewarding as shankara bhaTTara thesis is on KBK vyaakarana, empricism shows that concious rejection of sandhis has resulted in some very phonetically crude shravana in public discourse.
my reply:
Pls answer the following questions:
1) Does Bhat argue that sandhis should be consciously rejected? If so, where?
2) What in the whole wide world is “phonetically crude sharavana in public discourse”? This one stumped me. What is this?
tarle subba wrote:
there is nothing in his thesis that fundamentally challenges the genius of paNini and his asthaadhyaya, and bhaTTaru prolly never meant to challenge it.
my reply:
You are right in thinking that Bhat never meant to challenge it. I don’t know from where even such a doubt arose in your mind! Bhat only shows how Panini’s grammar (or any Sanskrit grammar) doesn’t apply to Kannada; very rightly, he doesn’t even talk of Panini’s grammar, let alone challenge it.
tarle subba wrote:
but i was sure that revisionists would exploit it these phyrric semantic battles and sure enough rameshe gowdru promptly supplies.
my reply:
I request you to write in plain english without an overdose of words for which normal human beings need the Oxford Dictionary of English. I simply don’t understand your statement above.
tarle subba wrote:
he ought to enlighten us if the gaambheerya that written kannada has could be sustained without this universalizing traasa bhedaaatita grammar?
my reply:
Gambheerya is second to understandability. Juttige mallige hoovu is second to hottege hittu.
tarle subba wrote:
even in spoken kannada why should the phonetically variant dharwad kannada or karaavaLi kannada accept norms based in politics? naavu hoppOdelli (hodogodu+elli sandhi-ize that) antha neevu namage heLoda?
my reply:
Foolish statement. Who is talking of politics here? I was trying to prove that Ravi’s classist remarks (about hakaara/akaara) are rooted in lack of understanding of the very meaning of Grammar. Obviously when I said Grammar is a reflection of WHAT IS (and not what OUGHT TO BE according to a few), the correct Kannada Grammar will not prescribe for Dharwad what is spoken in Mandya.
tarle subba wrote:
KBKV would be called revisionism if it were not aligned to certain agenda.
maNNU maNNe, kongru tindru antha naavoo tinnabaaradu.
my reply:
For heavensakes, can you stop the traasa-grasta english? What in the name of god is revisionism?
tarle subba wrote:
don’t get me wrong, traasa mukti bagge atyanta kaaLaji ullavanu naanu. aadare bareva kannadakke iruva advithiya gaambheerya uLiya bekaadare
traasaatheeta vyakarana beku.
my reply:
Advithiya gaambheerya is second to achieving basic communication. Juttige mallige hoovu is second to hottege hittu (again).
LikeLike
SwamigaLe….Thamma yellara Kannada vyakaraNa kaaLaji bagge
namo namaha . yilli avaryaaro ravi annovru thale kettidhe antha yeneno andhru antha ..vyakarna paata shuru maadbedi . kai mugeetheeni .
Mandya bhaashenu kannada …karavaLi bhaashenu kannada…haage dharwad bhaashe nu kannada . yelladhannu naavu respect kodoNa.
Yaake andhre bhaashe janagaLannu uttu goodisbeku adhu bittu biruku beda.
yaavdhu ondhu section of society naavu ‘HAAKARA’ maathadtheevi naavu shresta andre…yellargu gothirodhe ..yivathu addressgilla ‘HAAKARA’dhoru.
yeega ‘maLe’ go ‘male’ gu vythyaasa yidhe …haage ‘heLu’gu ‘helu’ gu vyathyaasa yidhe( naanu helbakagilla) .
Kannadigaru yaaru yee bhaashe mathadolla ( be mandya,mangalore or dharwad) …mathadidhre belyo ‘makkaLu’ athava ‘Kongru’ .
Yeega KRV avara skreeya pathra bagge gaourava yirli ( see my above posts) .nimma kayalli aagadhidhanna avaru maadthayidhare .namma bembala sadha KRV ge .
Kuvempu / Bendhre bagge sumne avara hesranna yeLithare..adhrallu jaathi rajakeeya maadthare . avara paandithya avarige..yaaru shresta antha yenilla. Yibbaru kannadadha kaNmaNigalu ..astakke bidona .
LikeLike
tarle subba wrote –
i have no problems with n gowdru’s ucchaara. peddling bhaTTara KBKV in the garb of protecting kannada is what got my goat.
my reply –
You do have a problem with hakaara – akaara bheda. That’s your whole problem in life, admit it. I’m not the one trying to protect Kannada or anything. There’s nothing to protect Kannada from.
On the other hand, it’s the likes of you who think are trying to “protect Kannada” by ensuring “Advithiya gambheerya” even at the cost of defeating the first and foremost application of language – communication, at the cost of forgetting the very definition of Grammar (I’m including Ravi’s comment in this blame).
No wonder you fantasise that Bhat says something about Panini’s grammar. This shows how many pages of KBKV you’ve actually gone through and understood!
No wonder you think I’m doing what kongru did.
Get real, mister! Drop your Advitheeya Gambheerya and ask whether your (and not my) written Kannada is inline with the basic function of language – which is to communicate.
Get real, mister! Drop the classist feeling of Advitheeya Gambheerya you get when you use un-understandable Sanskrit words in Kannada (which by the way spills over to your English) and achieve communication first!
Get real, mister! Find your Advitheeya Gambheerya in the Kannada spoken in the villages, where there is no hakaara-akaara bheda, where there is no Mahaapraana!
LikeLike
Gowdre..yenu gudsi saarsi …rangoLenu haakbitralla .
yelli swamy thamma beedu ?? thammanthavara santhaana hecch beku
LikeLike
Gowdre…
There is absolutely no way for me to prove to you that I have no problem with hakaara and akaara. My current favourite song is noDayya kuaTe lingave beLLakki joDi kunthave. I might have written a line or two about how much I liked the ‘saahitya’ in this song in another forum. Other than that you have to take my word for it.
I am not an academic to show you papers establishing my stand. However, I take interest in spoken languages and I picked KBKV 5 years ago exactly for that reason. The main thesis of KBKV is that there are certain nuances to Kannada grammar that have been ignored. I agree with that. But it is an entirely different thing to ask for purging samskrutha influence as is done directly and indirectly through out that book. Well, DNSB, might not personally hold those opinions, and I might have read more into it than what was written, but when you have a title like KBKV there is no other way establishing the main thesis other than denigrating the other. You will also notice that KBKV has left out certain aspects of the grammar such as meters. If you have any idea as to why please let me know or if you have any references on kannada meters please let me know. (korike)
You are right about ‘as is’ and I agree with your point about communication. These are true for oral communications, which necessarily happen face to face, and are two-way. So if you don’t understand either the language or the information, you can go back and forth or you can use different methods to communicate. I have seen a telugu speaking ajji and kannada speaking ajji converse for hours.
But written communication is more difficult – it is one way and information flow is generally more dense. So things like spelling become important, language itself becomes important. That is why the written form has to cross all traasa, shabda, sandharba sootka and embody certain ‘gaambheerya’. (Krishne gowdru even wrote a whole guest column on exactly this the other day in VK-although he wrote about the humour that arises due to this). And as I understand, the purpose of grammar is to facilitate exactly this at least for written materials such as informational articles, journals, legal documents etc. It is not meant to dictate oral communication between yenka seena and naaNi.
Finally, as far as grammar is concerned I think ashTaadhyaaya provides the BASIC STRUCTURE for context free grammar in phonetic languages. There is a definite case to be made about localization but you cannot take away from the fact that the meta grammar already exists. I want to say this, not pull paaNini’s authority, but as a matter of fact that there are only two works in linguistics that are considered seminal (moola kruti) one is by paaNini and the other by Chomsky. There is no point in reinventing the wheel.
Your point about samskruta words themselves is moot. That is vocabulary and different from grammar, IMO.
Reading your other post I feel you might have taken my original post as combative. I wrote that late in the night and was not careful. Hopefully, this one comes out better. This whole discussion again illustrates the point about written communication.
LikeLike
TS , Parvagilla . KRV bagge nimma abhipraaya yenu?
LikeLike
DG,
this is a discussion forum where in we come to evolve our ideas and notions. tappo – sarino. tappidre sari maaDkoLaNa sari idre dhruDa maaDkoLaNa.
playing bhaTTangi to reduce disussions to debates nimage salladu.
ondaadru discussion post bariri shiva.
LikeLike
tarle subba,
1. From now on I take your word that you don’t have the hakaara/akaara bias.
2. You simply don’t seem to understand what KBKV is. Do you think the book is a Grammar of Kannada? No sir, the book only advocates that Kannada “should have” its own Gramar. The main thesis is not that “there are certain nuances to Kannada grammar that have been ignored”, but rather that the Grammar of the Kannada language has to be rewritten from scratch without subscribing to the flawed subscription of earlier Kannada grammarians to the thinking that Kannada Grammar is a “localization” (to use your word) of Sanskrit Grammar.
3. About KBKV you say “there is no other way establishing the main thesis other than denigrating the other”, but I must point out that you are simply blind to the near mathematical proofs which Bhat gives for his arguments. Show me one sentence written by Bhat anywhere in any of his writings where he “denigrates” Sanskrit or its Grammar. You are making a very serious allegation – so better provide proof.
4. As to why KBKV has left out certain aspects of Grammar such as meters, I must point out once again that you’re wrong in thinking that KBKV is a Grammar of Kannada! No, it’s not a grammar. It’s a book which argues that there ought to be a Standalone grammar for Kannada. If you’re seriously interested in Kannada meters, pls refer “Kannada Chandahsvaroopa” by Dr. TV Venkatachala Shastri, DVK Murthy Publications, Mysore.
5. Your argument that oral and written communication are basically different is flawed. There are languages which have different oral and written styles, and those languages are said to have what’s called as Diglossia. Kannada’s Diglossia is unnatural and an artefact of overworship of Sanskrit by writers. So I don’t buy the argument that written Kannada needs to be different from spoken Kannada. Written English is no different from spoken English. One gets the same “Advitheeya Gambheerya” kick by speaking and writing the same stuff in English.
6. You’re repeating your mistake in arguing that grammar necessarily has different roles to play when it comes to spoken and written Kannada. This need not be. This needs to be only when one goes with the flawed “Advitheeya Gambheerya” crap.
7. After all the lecture about the sanctity of written communication, you fail to reproduce the name of Panini’s seminal work correctly: it’s Ashtadhyayi and not Ashtadhyaya.
8. You make the gravest of mistakes in your post when you bring Context Free Grammar on the table. What do you understand by CFG? Do you know what it means? You speak as if Panini’s Grammar (which is a CFG alright) is a Language (and not Context) Free Grammar! I suggest you read up about CFGs before you continue this thread! Your argument is as absurd as saying “Someone described the Fortran language using the Backus-Naur CFG, therefore it anticipates everything in C++”! Absurd! Panini’s CFG applies only to Sanskrit, mind you, and to no other language in the world. It’s foolish to think Panini’s grammar anticipates those of other languages! So a new Kannada Grammar wouldn’t be reinventing the wheel. If Panini’s grammar is a wheel, the Kannada Grammar is a light-bulb (two different things).
9. I request you to do more research before coming up with half-baked sentences using words which you don’t understand at all – “Advitheeya Gambheerya”, “Panini’s Grammar”, “Ashtadhyaya”, “KBKV”, “Context Free Grammar”…etc. First understand what those words mean and then talk.
I’m okay with combat, but I’m not okay with combat using blunt arrows. We need to unite and sharpen our arrows against the real enemy. The real enemy can’t be won with blunt arrows…
LikeLike
Dheerendragopal, naanirodu Germany nalli.
LikeLike
namganthu namma halli baase nae istha..yaav vyakarNanu yilla yaava thakraaru yilla…yaava ‘HAAGE ..HEEGE…KAAGE GOOBE’ nu yilla .
Manasnindha bandha maathu hyaagidhre yenu …manasaalondhu bayallondhu yirdhidhre saaku .
RG, yenu saar kannada vyakarNa bagge samshodhanae maadthidheera athava neevu Bhaasha jNaani na? .
Nange namma halliya bhaashe uLibeku anno aasae . muvathu varshadhindha namma halli bhaashe sogadu krameNa hogthayidhae annisuthe.TV bandhu yeega namma haLLi nalli english padha baLakae maadthare . aa oratu bhaashe mathadovre yilla .
Namma haLLi bhaashe vayvidhyathe yelladry yaaradhru dhaakalisdhaara?
LikeLike
Ramesh Gowdrey!
wie gehts Ihnen!
Thumba adbutha wagidey nimma vadha sarini.
Maanya Mahajanagaley, gelayarey mattthu gelathiyarey (howdhu),
Eega naanu namma Kannadadha kanmani Ramesh Gowdarigey ondhu Mysore Peta haaki sanmana madabeku antha vinanthisi kolluttheeni.
DG Awarey!
Namma gramya bhashey sogadu ballawarey ballaru!
Mandya Kannada, Tumkur Kannada, Hassan Kannada, Dharwada Kannada, ithyadi…
Nanagey eegalu, “asteya isteya…” antha Hassanadha bhashey kelisdrey kannali neeru barutthey–nanna thayi Hassan district Alur
Vishwasa Irali
LikeLike
Gowdre…
I have saved your post. It commands detailed response, especially about KBKV, that I will not be able to write currently due to work. I will continue with generics. Thanks for that reference. Thanks for that correction on Ashtadhyaayi, my mistake.
I am only saying Ashtadhyaayi’s contribution is that it has identified the principal components of grammar. In that sense it is a meta grammar. Most of these components are operant in kannada too. It is not as if a unique grammar component itself exists in kannada. Using an example from KBKV, that I remember, I am only saying Kallu+uppu is kalluppu in kannada and not kallOppu as it would be in samskruta. You might say that these are too universal and generic to be relevant, but I think Asthadhyaayi’s contribution is in identifying consistencies and in providing a framework to understand these consistencies. I see no point in getting bogged down by the politics of intermediaries.
Aside — There is another issue that I wanted to discuss – kannada now has many words from different languages – can rules describing these consistencies be uniform? Bat maaDidaru, batting maaDidaru, maanavate (and not manavya), gaambheerya(and not gambheerate) and so on.
Further, all I mean by gambheerya is standardization and well definedness. All I am saying is that ‘Gaambheerya’ is in kalluppu and I am definitely not saying that kallOppu is coorect or is in anyway superior to kalluppu. I am also definitely not using gaambheerya to qualify any social standing of the speaker/writer. (it is unfortunate that I have to say this) All it wasmeant to convey is standardization and well definedness, which are needed in certain contexts of communication. Which brings me to other to other aspect of this discussion -oral and written languages.
Regarding differences between the oral and written forms. All you are offering is that ‘it need not be’. I am not convinced that they are equivalent. I don’t see diglossia as an undesirable artifact. It is an ‘as is’ condition in all societies I am familiar with. You are ignoring diglossia in English. In some sections this gap is less, in others more. But it exists in all sections. Hence I am not convinced that they ought to be governed by the same rules. I am not convinced that oral languages ought to be governed at all, especially by those of the written language. There are two reasons for this: 1) they are fundamentally different media and 2) written language to be useful needs some standardization (gaambheerya :)).
As I see it, oral communication involves, language, intonation and expression. Intonation allows you to use the same word to convey various emotions. This is a very valid component in oral communication and is not merely decorative in purpose. Further, intonation is very local (individual level).
In contrast, in written language, explicit qualification is needed. I am not convinced that face-to-face communication is equivalent to either communication over phones or through impersonal mediums like paper. More importantly, as it exists, grammar in spoken language is largely irrelevant.
I wanted to clarify this – I distinguish informative articles, journals and other such writing, which aim to provide information about a particular subject to all. In these types of articles, information is more important than language IMO. karanth’s vastu chaitanya is to be written differently from kuvempu’s heggadathi.
Regarding context free grammar, my understanding is that there are different aspects to it. There are gory technical and semantic contexts. These are internal and really what the CFG refers to. But there is also the external context, that of the writer’s and that of the reader; Written communications need to be gambheera and posses gaambheerya only to convey information without getting clogged by contexts. A reader cannot be mandated to know the idiosyncrasies of internal contexts of a particular dialect, for example.
LikeLike
DB,
regarding tv, radio kannada somehow it has not caught on.
checkout bbc’s aajtak on the net and contrast that with the crap you hear on most indian channels. specifically, listen to bbc’s manikanth thakur.
also revisit loknath and sriram and contrast that to language in accident.
(other wise wonderful film). i fell they were more comfortable in the language they used. nags should have continued in his sirsi tongue instead of plain vanilla oundu alla yoondu alla standardized bhashe. ditto other movies.
LikeLike
Thank you, TS. Great insight into Nag’s accent. I will check out these sources.
LikeLike
tarlesubba,
1. Your statement “Ashtadhyaayi’s contribution is that it has identified the principal components of grammar” is divorced from fact unless you change the word “grammar” to “Sanskrit grammar”. Reason is – Ashtaadhyaayi is a grammar of the Sanskrit language alone. You seem to have been brainwashed into thinking that Panini is God himself, and his Ashtaadhyaayi is a grammar for all the languages of the world. Come out of this delusion.
2. I would also remove the adjective “principal” from your “principal components”; Ashtaadhyaayi is a COMPLETE grammar of the Sanskrit language encompassing what you call as “principal” as well as what you leave out by not calling so.
3. You use the word “component” very loosely. Define a “component”.
4. kallu + uppu would not become kallOppu in Sanskrit as you fantasize, but kallooppu (‘oo’ as in ‘ooTa’). The sandhi is called Savarnadeergha. In Kannada we get lOpasandhi instead. But never mind.
5. I agree with your statement “Asthadhyaayi’s contribution is in identifying consistencies and in providing a framework to understand these consistencies” provided you’re talking only about the Sanskrit language.
6. You go off on a tangent again when you say “I see no point in getting bogged down by the politics of intermediaries”. What is the Politics of Intermediaries?
7. On your aside: rules describing the behavior of words borrowed from other languages will obviously not be uniform. They don’t need to be uniform. It’s your blind following of Sanskrit (I say blind since I haven’t seen those sparks of Sanskrit knowledge from you yet) which makes you feel the need for uniformity. Sanskrit has that uniformity because nobody speaks it (I know Samskruta Bharati would beg to differ, but facts are facts: as a percentage of world population, Sanskrit speakers (let alone mother-tonguers) are an extinct species). The life-blood of the Sanskrit language is its singular adherence to a grammar written aeons ago. Living languages are not like this: their grammars evolve. Evolution is change. Change is a characteristic of life. Stagnation is death.
8. I appreciate your concern for standardization of the Kannada language, but my only word of caution is: don’t overdo it. Living languages change, so accept it and keep releasing new versions of your book of standards.
9. You say “grammar in spoken language is largely irrelevant”. While I’ve already pointed out how this statement is flawed, it also continues to betray your lack of appreciation for the meaning of the word Grammar. For the Nth time, understand that both the following are true:
(a) Spoken language is governed by Grammar
(b) Grammar is governed by Spoken language
10. As to the discussion about Diglossia – note that there is no Diglossia in the English language. Whatever I’m writing now is what I’d exactly speak. I wouldn’t have to unnecessarily change the words while speaking. On the contrary, in Kannada, what is spoken as “ellidyaa?” would be written as “elli iddeeya?” or worse, “elliruve?”. This is a disease, a disease called Diglossia which hasn’t affected English, but has affected Kannada. When the disease of Advitheeya Gambheerya (:-) affects the speaker, “ellidyaa” becomes “kutraasi?”
11. Please stop writing about CFGs before you understand what the “context” in CFG means. You’re subjecting “context” to prostitution by using it wherever and however you want. Stop it. It’s not the “context” as in “answer with reference to context”. The “context” of CFG has a specific meaning. Please read about it, understand it, before you return to this discussion.
LikeLike
Sorry about the name goofup. Ramesh and ramesh gowda are one and the same person:-)
LikeLike
Dheerendragopal,
aShTella sanmaana ginmaana yaak biDee saar…
kannaDadalli naavu maaDbEkirO kelsa bahaLa ide…
Doddi Buddi,
Es geht mir gut! Und Sie?
LikeLike
Ramesh , Neevu Kannada adhyayana pradhikaara dhalli yidheera?
LikeLike
DG, Enadu Kannada adhyayana pradhikaara ? ellide adu?
LikeLike
send me a mail ‘NANNAHESRU@yahoo.com’ nimma parichayanu aguthe
LikeLike
“10. As to the discussion about Diglossia – note that there is no Diglossia in the English language. Whatever I’m writing now is what I’d exactly speak.”
Don’t know where you learnt your English mate, but you seem to be sorely out of touch with spoken English, or maybe you are one of those Indians who try to speak the Queens English.
Come over here to North America, and you will see the absurdness of your statement.
No one but the worst geek/nerd/loser (or ramesh gowda i guess) would speak English the way it is written. To give you an idea:
gonna = going to
ain’t
seen = saw
bro = brother
whack = kill
shoe = prison
can = prison
crib = house
playa, mac = one who gets all the girls
chick = girl
ganja, weed = marijuana
I ain’t even gonna touch on ebonics, it has so much slang that even many non blacks north americans would find hard to understand.
Stop commenting on Panini when you don’t even know contemporary English, i suggest you watch an episode of The Sopranos, may give u some idea of spoken English, and help u get rid of ur ridiculous Queens English.
LikeLike
HA Ha Ha The same old thing kannadigas don’t want to accept the inferiority of their language when compared to Tamil or even Tulu which is spoken in coastal karnataka.kuvempu was great man nevertheless.
LikeLike