FRANCOIS GAUTIER has a new video up on YouTube on how Brahmins and Upper Caste Hindus have become a minority in India. Once belonging to the priestly class, many now drive taxis, clean toilets, carry headloads as coolies, make tea on the roadside, and work as masons and domestic helps to earn a living.
“Population-wise, Brahmins are a minority. And 80 per cent of Brahmins are financially poor,” is the claim made by Tamil writer Seetharaman in the video.
The video has some revealing and controversial placards:
# 50 per cent of the rickshaw pullers in Delhi’s Patel Nagar are Brahmins.
# 70 per cent of people employed in the 1,783 public toilets in Delhi are upper caste Hindus.
# 75 per cent of domestic help and cooks in Andhra Pradesh are Brahmins.
# 44 per cent Brahmins drop out of primary school and 36 per cent drop out by mariculation. Nearly 70 per cent of Brahmins and Other Upper Castes don’t go beyond 12th standard.
# All purohits live below the poverty line, according to a book Brahmins of India, by J Radhakrishna, published by Chugh Publications. And 53.9 per cent of upper caste population live below poverty line.
# A priest’s salary in Ranganathaswamy Temple in Tamil Nadu is Rs 300 per month and a measure of rice; the government staff at the same temple earn Rs 2,500.
# 52.4 per cent of Brahmins and Other Upper Castes do not own more than 100 cents of land, according to a paper presented by D. Narayana of the Centre for Development Studies, Trivandrum.
There is nothing called the “other side” in the documentary by Gautier, a French journalist who has lived in India for 33 years, and proudly bats for the Hindutva cause with more fervour than the average Bajrang Dal activist.
Still, the points he throws up in this one-sided documentary are worth debating.
Are Brahmins the new Dalits of India, oppressed and marginalised? Has votebank politics pushed a once proud class to the brink? Do the upper castes deserve this for what they are condemned to have done over centuries? And since nearly a third of India’s population comprises upper caste Hindus, is there an electoral future for a new political party that addresses their needs, issues, and demands?
churumuri 
May be sounding like a one dimensional story. But the facts are startling.
As one gentleman in the video said, after 15 years, Brahmins may cease to exist as a community.
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Interesting facts. Hope they won’t start asking for reservations in all sectors.
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Look at the brighter side, brahmins should apply for reservation quota and claim themselves as backward as they are the new dalits. This will turn the stupid reservation quota principle on its head!
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Yes I do Vote for reservation for Brahmins, if indeed their situations is as claimed. I am inclined to belive its just that not 100% Brahmins have got govt employment. This case illustrated in the video is maybe 5% are left out in India Shining.
Make reservations for all based on their %age of population…….all will live happily everafter!
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At least Gautier has provided statistics, whatever the validity of them. Our HRD ministry with huge resources at its beck and call cannot to this day provide the basis of the 27% OBC quota that it is pushing.
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KP why did you bring hindutva angle into this? If anything the video is about casteism it has nothing to do with religion. the same would apply if a maulana’s son or a priest’s son were to take up these jobs.
Again, the mere fact that you found it interesting enough to post it here, exposes the fact that the content of this video is seminal. That it is seminal exposes the fact that this prolly is the first time the question of brahminical ‘superiority’ has been looked into openly. If all other ‘englightened’ discussions on caste , of which there are plenty, had considered the ‘other side’ of the modern brahminical existence, the content of this video would have been common place knowledge and you would not have posted it here.
i have nothing to say about the video itself, mainly because of snobbish attitude towards paykhaana & kakkas & sewage. It is heartening that atleast a few people in the video showed a matter of factly attitude to it.
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Of all the communities Brahmins are targetted for the most foulest of discrimiantion and in their tretment of other castes Brahmins are most catholic while others treat with narrow caste bias
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It is true that if you have a significant prescence in a paticular state or district you can have more power. I read somewhere that brahmins are 3% of india’s population and are spread all over the country, hence not a vote bank for any body to consider.
It is a shame about the kashmiri brahmins/pandits that they have to live like refugees in thier own country. Why did’nt the govt do anything to protect them in kashmir. I read that the logic of the militants was if they force the pandits to leave kashmir then the rest of the hindu population would leave too leaving only the muslims behind. For a country that is supposed to hold brahmins or their own religion in such high regard it has done little to help protect it’s own citizens from leaving thier homeland. Meanwhile they are spending millions on missiles and ammunations to protect whom?
Traditionally the hindu society was divided into brahmins, kshtriyas, vysas and
shudras. was this done by hindus themselves or by people studying it?
Is’nt the priest a govt staff in temples, is’nt he the key employee.Is’nt it time the brahmins left “poojapat” at temples if it no longer supports them.
In the past the brahmins may have been provided for thier services adequately
but if no longer the case it is time to learn new skills and move on.
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“Gautier, a French journalist who has lived in India for 33 years, and proudly bats for the Hindutva cause with more fervour than the average Bajrang Dal activist.”
So? I would like an objective criticism of his works than this generic statement.
Get me the facts!
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Ironically, this post with its entitlement innuendos was posted on labour day.
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Dear All,
Brahmins are great pragmatists. I don’t detect any aberration here with the statistics provided by Francois Gautier. It is all par for the course.
How can I put this? OK here goes…It was said of Pele’s Brazilian football team of 1970s. “The team had players who could play the piano as well as carry it.” That is how it is.
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So what ? Move on Folks (Brahmins)
There are other enterprises providing employment ..Get a job and dont hang around temples .
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Dheerendragopal… temples offer the best RoI… adkeya yella pangaDadavu maaDtirodu eega…
matte templegaLLa meloo jaasti jana avalambitavaagilla…
sumne nandelikli antha barbeda!
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This is nauseating and shows how Brahminism never dies. What is wrong with Brahmins cleaning toilets? If other people can do it they can too. And see how we have been socialized into believing that the Brahmins form a higher order that we think there is something wrong with Brahmins cleaning toilets.
And even here the OBCs and Dalits are being oppressed as the Brahmins are invading their territory.
The Brahmins might have infiltrated OBC and the Dalit sector. But it is interesting that the OBCs and Dalits have not penetrated the Brahmin sector. Coming to think of it, all temples (at least major ones) are still under Brahmins. Why aren’t Brahmins allowing Dalits there? This is again a form of reservation, reserving certain duties exclusively for Brahmins. Brahmins do not want to give up their privilege but want to do away with official reservation. This is hypocrasy.
And coming to think of Gautier, what more can you expect of a man with rightwing leanings. He has a running feud with Christophe Jafferlot, the author of The Silent Revolution that traces the backward class movement.
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Government should intervene and appoint in all Mutts and major temples other castes which may incl Dalits or OBC’s to head . Because after all everyone is a ‘HINDU’ .
As rightly said by gatekeeper whats wrong in cleaning toilets by brahmins?
Are they DEVAPUTRA?
I think this post should not have been there on Churumuri the first place .
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The idea of ‘devaputras’ is not unique to brahmins nor to Hindu religion. During my days of studies and work in America, I went with a mate of mine to a evangelic church meeting in one of North Carolina’s bible belt towns. I never heard such nonsensical claptrap clothed as sermon in my life, not even by self-appointed mutt heads in Mysore. The evangelist was literally saying that he had a direct link to God, and his followers were “the chosen few”,’the devaputras’ if you wish. He was visibly shocked to see me -a coloured guy in his “chosen few” flock and was stupified to learn that I was a ‘hindu’ worshipping the stone and the tree as he put it. The next time, I was in a Baptist Congregation near Atlanta with a black mate who dragged me to the meeting, the guy giving the sermon was
saying the same ‘chosen few’ crap. Perhaps you could say things to a hindu mutt priest and get away with it. But you are a dead man before you
leave the building if you utter a single word of comment on the ‘concept of chosen few’.
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Aug 21’st 2024.
Gautier writes…..Tamil nadu C.M Stalin’s son Hitler has taken power in Delhi.People of my age remember the good old times when his granfather was just insisting on 50 % reservation for the downtrodden.Today it is a different story.
The discrimination against brahmins has come a full circle.Today if you are born a brahmin in india then you must consider yourself as very unfortunate. Brahmins have become the jews of europe.A small community…too small to defend themselves against physical attacks,pograms and holocost. The brahmins have spread themselves too thin and are open to attack due to lack of organised defence and will be the final losers.USA has introduced security council resolution 6732…..”Allocate a narrow strip of land on the ganges near varanasi….sandwiched in the muslim hearland of UP” .The last traces of hinduism is left to battle on this fertile and ancient land of ganges.
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Gautier talks a load of nonsense. The old adage is ‘converts are zealots’. Just look at the quantity of codswallop pouring out of converted Islamicists. The drivel of this Gautier guy and Seetharaman if not property controlled would produce the effect no one wants. This is voodoo practice! The last thing any one needs is UN resolution which has no teeth. What can you expect from Kofi Annan’s and Tharoor’s UN!
The example of Jews is a good one. They are not in Israel alone. They are my work mates in my organisation and other organisations around the western world. They build schools, colleges and universities. In England even Muslim children study in schools established for Jewish children because of the excellence in teaching in those schools. That is the way forward and not standing at the strip near Ganges ( the last time I visted Varanasi, water from gutters were pouring into Ganges, and I could see effluence floating around while people took bath! Nothing sacred about this. I had not seen this before I took bath. I had to use a soap I brought from the West to remove the sticky substance from my anatomy!), and fighting the last battle.
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I think the example of jews fits the brahmins case excellently….unless you want 6 million of your fellow people gassed,raped and murdered sit up and listen to what gautier has to saySometimes it takes an outsider to see the big picture.By just dismissing the presence of hatred ,brahmins will also go the jew way….offcourse you can always look at a problem in 2 ways….america and england are bastions for jews for the moment…till when is the question….
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the truely important question is whether such public trials are possible across the board in a truely secular india? ranga has given some examples, there are others, can these be discussed with such focus & liberalism? to every gujrat will a nagaland be discussed? to every question of native cow will other tax free land grants & licences be discussed? or is this all the jaziya of the dhimmis?
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TS
It is the jaziya of the dhimmis!
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honestly, DB, could the range of topics discussed by Christoper Hitchens, for example, be discussed in India without being subject to ad hominems?
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TS
Exactly I am with you on this. The ‘fascism with ‘religion of peace’ face’. That is why IMHO am a supporter of encounter killings–as some followers of peace said some collateral damage is only to expected.
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Poor don’t have any other caste except poverty
By Vineet Kumar :)
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How did the govt come to categorize certain castes as backward?
Based on the fact that these castes were traditionally oppressed, economically and socially backward.
You can say that brahmins and other upper caste hindus were not oppressed traditionally, but were they economically and socially “forward” in the last 500 years? The British ruled for the last 200 years(before indipendence) and the moghuls for 300 years before that. Who supported the caste system during this time? The people themselves stuck to the caste system because it gave them a support system during difficult times. Where and how does oppression come in?
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I am not very familiar with karnataka politics. Can somebody tell who constitute “forward caste” in Karnataka, so far I have brahmin, bunt, reddy and vokkaliga(gowda). what % of population do they constitute?
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Reservation is like poison. I just hate BR Ambedkar who in the name of reservation stopped the growth of India. And all dirty congress politicians for the votes of dalits continued the reservation. Congress/Nehru/Ambedkar I hate all of them.
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I think this post should not have been there on Churumuri the first place .
Nin gaNtenu oiytade?
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I see a lot of hatred for brahmins amongst some folks here who have posted their views. I have a few questions now, after admitting that the so called brahmin ancestors snubbed the other classes to suit their own gains:
1. The world has progressed quite a long way beyond the years – even taking into account the Indian Independence. A lot of progression has been made by the people (from all classes of society) provided they were inclined to do so. All it required was hard work and assistance. What has prompted others in the lower strata to remain as they were earlier?
2. People from one generation who were benefitted and prospered by the government’s largesse continue to claim that they need more of the same type of benefits. They are the cream of the so called OBCs. How correct are they? Our founding fathers decided to provide Reservation only for a brief duration – but our existing political class wants reservation for purchasing their briefs (underwears)!!
3. Reservation is something that is needed for anyone who is underprivileged – irrespective of any caste / creed. How many of you agree?
4. If someone is a brahmin and he has chosen to clean the toilets – so be it! Why make a big fuss out of it? That person was destined to become a janitor and he became one!! Let’s not look at why he took this profession. If that is a heinous job as he thinks, then he needs to concentrate and see that his next generation does not go into this. This janitor has no point in abusing his own job since it is providing him food everyday. In case he does not like the job, let him come out of it and embrace a suitable profession. If that happens to be a priest, let it be! What’s our problem?
5. To insult the Brahmin community in the name of being a so called progressive person – OR – for that matter being an OBC – OR – a Brahmin Hater for whatever reason is just being sadistic. Nothing else!!
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Its all rubbish! I don’t know why in the first placewas this article published in churmuri. Guys wake up, there are other burning issues in our country.
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For this i hold Brahmins and only Brahmins responsible because tell me how many of us really go and vote in an election?? if the brahmins vote aggressively as other minorities all these politicains who are intrested only in votes will clean toilets of all brahmin’s houses for their votes! and then think of some real solutions
dinesh
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This is an old trick: culprit playing victim in order to get away easily. Please try something new, this is not convincing anyone but yourself!
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A few have observed there is hatred towards brahmins in their comments. really?
About the statistics…….what about the number of brahmins in each PSU, civil services etc. would someone come up with? oh well its all merit!
Funny how the reactions to the two questions will be.
Hatred for brahmins…….. who founded RSS, with the single agenda of hatred.
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I didn’t get this: Who hates Brahmins?
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Zulfi,
Sadly, you are misinformed. If you take the statistics of Brahmins in the PSU sector, you will be surprised to note that the majority WERE there in the service but NOT NOW. Sadly, it is due to the reservation lobby and the petty politics by pseudo-secularists playing for minority vote bank. Additionally, since the so called backward community is more in numbers within the country, politicians try to play the ball in their court – it suits them. No wonder, our country is still backward!! – Otherwise, we should have made progress by leaps and bounds.
So, don’t fret and fume about some people working in the top posts – they come there purely because, they deserve to be there because of merit. I wouldn’t mind anyone with merit working there including people who come with reservation but have an inclination to work and have commonsense.
If the majority are brahmins there, so be it. What’s your problem??
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@virtirix …pls change ur question to :
‘Who doesnt hate brahmins’
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Ok Vinay, who doesn’t hate Brahmins?
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The comments only go to show how tragic the situation is. Instead of the the divisive effects of reservations where everyone claims to be different and backward, shouldn’t government policies promote oneness of all humans? Let economic criteria be the deciding factors for helping the downtrodden.
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IMHO:
1) Vokkaligas, Lingayaths & other forward caste hate Brahmins as people. This is because, though they are as forward as Brahmin, they are less-influential poliltically & economically.
The downtrodden (SC, ST, BT) don’t hate Brahmins as people but hate Brahminical principles like caste-system, untouchability, etc.
So, let the Brahmins restrospect & find out who hates them.
2) Occupation of person is dependent on
(a) the person’s education or
(b) on the person’s family’s assets (including ancestral)
Most forward castes have (b), which can ensure (a). If they have neither (a) or (b), a Brahmin, Gowda, Lingayath or SC, ST, BT can work as a toilet cleaner.
Likewise, the downtrodden (in the past) didn’t have access to (a) and hence no (b). Hence they did menial jobs. Due to reservation, a limited of downtrodden have access to (a). Still (b) would take generations.
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@vir, looks like u answered the Q and I dont agree on the statement on ur view of the downtrodden
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Whats the issue. Its also a job, why can’t they do it. Is there anything in darma like Brahmin’s shouldn’t do this job.
I don’t accept totally, still its only one side of the coin
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I am depressed that people — regardless of community — are still doing these jobs when we can automate. Most cities have the resources to automate.
I am further woebegone that Brahmin communities, which have traditionally led our society’s education, science and the arts, are forced into these jobs. Is this how our society values them?
Clearly, our society is moving in a wrong direction. We need to introspect.
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Nikhil, if current Brahmins don’t educate themselves, they will end up doing such menial jobs. Don’t say reservation – its limited to 22%. What about remaining 78%? Can’t Brahmins fight it out?
Example: Assume 100 seats in a Medical College. 22% reserved to underprivileged. So 78 seats are available. Why bother about 22 seats, when 78 seats are up for grabs? All these 78 seats can be occupied by Brahmins.
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Lots on Brahmins on the internet…
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Lets not miss the wood for the trees. The Brahmins can in no way be compared to Dalits (or Dalits to Brahmins). And arguing that all economically improvised people (including Brahmins) should be given reservation is turning the argument on its head. Poor people need financial assistance and not reservations and the both are different.
Dalits have been oppressed (and still are) for thousands of years. Brahmins don’t even know what that oppression is. They have seen economic misery, undoubtedly, but that is nothing compared to social deprivation bordering on inhumanness. Brahmins had no problems asking Dalits to carry their filth. But now when they are doing it themselves, there is such a hue and cry.
There is another posting on Churmuri about two pourakarmikas dying while cleaning a manhole in Mandya. It attracted only four postings while that is definitely more important than this. This only shows how invested we all are in Brahminism.
Lets get over it and stop batting for Brahminism. And also lets stop using false analogies such as Brahmins are the Jews of India. If anything, Brahmins are much more consolidated than that. They are doing extremely well for themselves; in fact, N.R. Narayanamurthy of the Infosys fame (or rather, the national anthem fame) has gone on record that IT set afloat the Brahmin sinking ship. All we have to do is walk into Jayanagar in Bangalore to see how well Brahmins are doing for themselves.
And as long as Brahmins do not detach themselves from the philosophy of Hindutva and as long as they do not renounce the ownership of mutts and temples (which is for me is the most unethical reservation that still continues), I think they will never get the political sympathies of India.
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GK…
while i more than agree with your point about entitlement, I think you are stretching the case in dumping the whole load of current casteism on brahmins and equating in ‘brahminism’ to hindutva.
the current tension is between landholders, a very small % of who are brahmins, & dalits. For example, in cases such as the TN dalit panchayat president issue, Kolar issue, you will be hard pressed to identify brahmin players.
Hindutva itself, and its players have taken significant stand against casteism. Again if you are serious & honest you will be hard to find a case where hindutva has upheld any form of brahminism.
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i hope you appreciate that one can against be claims of entitlement of a community & simultaneously be against unfair victimization of the same community.
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Francois Gautier is 100 per cent correct. Sometimes it takes a foreigner to show us the warts in our society. People like Gautier, David Frawley, etc. are naturalized Hindus. They understand Hindu philosophies better than many Hindus.
“Brahminism” or Brahmanatva is one of the ideals of Hindu society, and all individuals, no matter how “high” or “low”, strive toward Brahmanatva. That is why all of us are alwayus so “invested in Brahminism” — why does Gatekeeper seem so surprised?
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TS,
I agree with your point that you don’t need to accept an idea to appreciate it. But coming to Hindutva and Brahminism and how the two are allied together, lets look at a few things.
Firstly, Hindutva embraces a casteless society rhetoric but what has it done towards it? Will RSS ever ask Sringeri Jagadguru to adopt a Dalit heir to the peeta? That is the hypocrisy of Hindutva. What stand will Hindutva take on the reservation issue? Will it encourage the continuation of the reservation policy? Or will it ask its cadres to marry outside their caste? RSS appropriating Ambedkar is like Congress appropriating Gandhi: they don’t come together at all.
Look at all the Sarasangchalaks. All of them are Brahmins. Does that not tell a lot about how intricately allied Hindutva and Brahminism is.
I have friends who are in the RSS and they will never let their children marry someone outside their caste. So much for the castelessness of Hindutva.
Furthermore, Hindutva’s notion of cultural nationalism can never be divorced from Brahminism. What culture are they talking about? Burning Valentine Day cards? Or poohpoohing Shilpa Shetty for kissing Richard Gere? If oppression of women and placing an embargo on sexual expression is what they want, then this is not my understanding of Indian culture.
You say that I will be hardpressed to find Brahmin elements in, for example, the Kolar incident. If the Hindutva movement is against caste, why didn’t the RSS come out in support of the Dalits (the victims)? They will never do it because that will cost their support among the OBCs, presently the muscle reserve of the Hindu right wing movement. Hindutva promotes a Brahmin-OBC nexus that has always proved detremental to Dalits and minorities. While Brahminism becomes the mind of the devil, OBCs, particularly land-owning communities, become the violent body.
Let me put it more clearly: Is Hindutva ready to challenge Brahminism? Like promoting Dalit heads for mutts? What is Hindutva’s stand on the Kuruba demand to handover the Srikrishna Mutt at Udupi to the Government?
The problem is that so much of Brahminism is imbedded in the Hindu right wing movement that it is incredible we can’t see it. I can go on and on but the point is that the way of life that Hindutva wants to promote based on Brahmin values is not acceptable to me.
And Mysorean,
I don’t think everybody moves towards Brahmanatva. That is your misunderstanding. A lot of people like me openly disavow Brahmin values. We may be the exception but we still exist.
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Gatekeeper
You start off brightly and quickly veer into using the old trusted ‘secular sword’. OK here is some news for you–Hindutva is not only about Brahmins as a caste. There are many Hindus who believe in Hindutva–lest we all become followers of the religion of peace or get our souls saved under the Son of God.
IMHO whatever Hinduism is still left in India today, it is solely because the so-called Brahmins defied the Muslims invaders and the Christian missionaries to keep the Hindu faith going. I welcome you to refute this contention with facts!
Naturally there have been excesses like the caste system; the oppression of the dalits; and so on. As a consequence there has been numerous religious reform movements–Buddhism, Basavanna, Narayan Guru, Kabir , and others. There have been many social reformers–like Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Vivekananda, Kanakadasa, Purandaradasa and many more. Cut to 20th century India we have reservation for SC/STs. I am not a believer in OBC reservations though because these types want to have it both ways–they don’t mind oppressing the Dalits while detesting the Brahmins!
Rather than going all Indian-psycho anal on Brahmins as a caste–try and see things in perspective. IMHO it is laudable that Brahmins have found employment in even the lowest menial jobs. That is a sign of social progress. Oh BTW if it pleases you, I am not a Brahmin in the caste sense. But I think I am half-way through to becoming a Brahmin through my karma:)
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Dear All,
I am just wondering why my cogent reply did not post!
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Reservation must be totally stopped. Else we’ll continue to see brahmins cleaning toilets. Brahmins wake up and improve your skill sets and apply for good jobs in private sector companies. Govt jobs are only for Dalits/SC/ST/OBC etc etc..in India.
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DB,
Would like to know who were those valiant Brahmins who defied Muslim invadors and Christian missionaries, except the RSS, of course. First of all, the myth of the Muslim invadors has so subsumed Indian history, we just seem to buy it. Do you think the Mughals are invadors? If so, why was there no independence movement against them like we had one against the British? And why did so many Rajputs support them? Coming to think of it, the Rajputs were such a divided house that they would support anyone as long as their position was not threatened (with the exception of Hemu and Rana Pratap, that is). And why did Shivaji’s army have Muslims when they should have supported Aurangzeb?
I do agree that people like Ghazni did invade temples. But then, haven’t we heard of tales where Vaishnavas overtook Shaiva temples or vice-verse. Hampi is a good example.
Coming to Christians, yes they do indulge in unethical conversions which I oppose heart and soul. But just that you know, Hinduism could spread around the country simply because people were also converted and forced to accept the superiority of Hinduism. If you read Ambedkar’s Puzzles of Hinduism, he argues that after sometime, Hinduism stopped prosletyzing because casteism worked against it. New converts had to be accommodated and since our caste structure is so water tight we could not take new converts. So do not absolve Hinduism of the conversion sin.
If you go into any of the tribal hamlets today and see their practises, they can’t be termed Hinduistic. But then, that tag has been slapped on them.
And I am still waiting to know who those valiant Brahmin defenders of Hinduism are?
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I think the EGO, made them to suffer. Any one who has EGO will suffer & that should be burnt to overcome & prosper in ones life.
The politeness & respect to one another, makes people happy & forgo the bad happenings, learning from that mistakes can improve in productivity all comes in buldle of happiness.
This is my feeling.
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@ GK…are u telling that hampi wasnt destroyed by muslim invaders ??? pls dont twist facts just to suit your position.
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NRI-BRAHMIN: Why can’t Brahmins go for Govt jobs? A large majority of Govt jobs are still open to general public and people are opting for them.
Just because an odd Brahmin is cleaning toilet doesn’t mean that end of world.
I wonder when they reliaze that they are actually homo sapiens (like everybody else) and not aliens (created from unknown super natural phenomenon).
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Vinay,
I am not telling that Muslims did not destroy Hampi. But if you study it in more detail you get to know that many Shaiva temples were converted into Vaishnava temples under the patronage of the Vijayanagara rulers. Prominent are Veerabhadra temples getting converted into Anjaneya temples.
The Lingayats, who had a stake in Shaivism, took their revenge, though. One theory, I stress that again, theory, is that the Lingayats struck a deal with Adil Shahis when they attacked Hampi. It is said that this is why the Virupaksha temple was spared but the Ugra Narasimha statue destroyed.
So it is not just Muslims breaking up temples, Vaishnavas and Shaivas colonized each other temples when it served them fine.
Hope you got my point.
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GK, can u tell me one documented instance when a shaiva temple was converted to Vaishnava temple??? I think the theory that you propounded here is just that a theory.
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GK..
Thank you for your fervent reply. What I meant to say is I am personally opposed to entitlement aspects of this issue by that I mean I am intolerant of statements like ‘brahmaN ko log pooja karte the’, ‘hum yeh thoDi na karenge’, ‘barish nahi hogi’ type of dialogues. But in the same video, there were other people who were quite factual about this & said whatever has to be done to survive needs to be done. So my point is unlike idealogues, most common folk live with several inconsistencies and with ever changing impressions & takes on issues. The situation is analogous to travails of common muslim & chirstian folks in the midst of islamists & evanjelists.
I have no intent or capacity to support RSS, I am just curious about the goings on, and have half baked ideas on the issue. for example, I am not sure if Kurubas are dalits. From kalidasa, kanaka, hakka, bukka, Krishna devaraya to sidharamiah in the current day they are all kurubas. I believe that hindutva people have raised the issue of caste at sringeri, and at udupi. It is interesting that the more apolitical sringeri has remained silent, while the more political, pejawara seer has spoken out against discrimination, perhaps a first from where he comes from. It is also interesting that TTD, which has started a program of taking utsava moorthy to dalit colonies. Another aspect of this is, it might be interesting to know how many yogis, sadhus, swamis, and unaffiliated ‘gurus’ who prolly hold more sway than these mathadipathis are from the brahmin community.
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for example, I am not sure if Kurubas are Dalits or not.
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in that vaishnava & shaiva tensions existed/exist you are correct. but if you imply that this tension was similar to islamic invasions in spirit and in consequence, (for example level of violence on common folk, plunder of cities) then i think you are stretching the point. is this why it has become expeditious now that ghazni be shown to be motivated by personal greed and not by fanatism? Is this why political considerations of V-S issue has to be suppressed and fanatism implied?
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TS,
To the best of my knowledge Kurubas are not Dalits but that is beside the point. I do believe that there have been changes, like the Utsava Murthy being taken to Dalit colonies. But Hindutva addresses the issue of caste through crisis intervention. For instance, Hindu seers and others will flock to a place that has witnessed a clash between caste Hindus and Dalits and try to assuage their feelings by advocating peace. But they are loathe to condemn the perpetrators, often caste Hindus. Or do anything long-term about caste in the absence of conflict.
Other than this, such seers hardly go out and do something about caste. If anything, their action is contained in the religious domain such as the Utsava Murthy incident that you spoke about. What about the social domain? For instance, will the Pejawar seer tell his followers that it is okay to give their daughters in marriage to Dalits, or to eat in the home of Dalits, or will the seer himself do it on a regular basis, which will probably help to break caste.
The Dalit Sangarsh Samiti, I presume, two decades ago started a campaign to distribute water at street corners. People who drunk from the mug handed out by DSS activists were seen to have renounced caste. But today we know that one can indulge in such rhetorical moves and still be an absolute casteist. It is very easy to initiate such moves as taking Utsava Murthy to Dalit colonies or eat at the house of a Dalit but much difficult to initiate long-term social changes which no swamiji will ever advocate. Another thing is that Hindutva has to initiate such nominal changes in the face of the criticism it has had to ensure owing to caste.
And coming to the Pejawar seer, it will be interesting to recollect the exchange he and Poornachandra Tejaswi had over the Madhwacharya issue. So much for the seer’s openmindedness.
Another thing I want to point out: all caste-oriented moves is aimed at Brahmanizing the Dalits/OBCs rather than the otherway round, as if Brahminism was the natural destination of all Hindus. How about the TTD allowing the procession of a Dalit goddess, say Maramma, in its temple precints?
And coming to V-S issue, who is to decide Ghazni was not motivated by greed but fanaticism. If anything, facts prove that greed played a major role. Why did he target the same temple 18 times? Simply because of its riches. There were other temples at that time in India but he never went on a Demolish Temple campaign unlike the Ghaznis of today whose Demolish Mosque campaign is only fired by hatred. And pillage and looting are common fallouts of war; nothing exclusive about Muslim armies.
And Vinay,
Please you explain to me why the Virupaksha temple is intact in Hampi while the Urga Narasimha statue has been defaced. Even the Bruhatlinga next to the statue is intact. How come this wonder of wonders happened?
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Why should a Dalit aim to become a priest in a temple?
Let him achieve something better!
It is OK to do Brahmin Bashing, but do not forget LOGIC!
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Nobody is pushing Dalits to become priests. I am sure most hate that profession. But if they want to, nothing should prevent them.
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Gatekeeper
Your version of history of Muslim Invasion of India is like what Naipaul calls, “A History as a pleasant conquest”. Don’t bring in some obscure facts like there were Muslims in Shivaji’s army and so on. I recommend a strong dose of Arun Shourie’s books for you. Ambedkar although talented was given to brown nosing at all times when it suited him.
Rajputs were definitely not so valiant as claimed–we still see it today–VP Singh, Arjun Singh and so on. Surely some faiths under Hinduism repurposed the original temples–but they did not destroy or kill Hindus. Did they?
Ambedkar only theorized about the tribals–surely it makes sense for them,to pursue a way of life suited to the environment. It is very interesting to see the ‘deal’ you mention about Lingayats with the invaders of Vijayanager:) That is world class! You made my day.
You will have to wait till weekend to get a strong reply from my side.
Till then, go in peace.
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DB,
Just like you propose Arun Shourie, I urge that you read Ambedkar and Romila Thapar. At least their history is not full of venom. And your version of history is definitely bloody, probably excessively.
And if you think it is okay to change dieties in temples and achieve a bloodless change, I will not even argue with you. Look how easily we condone mistakes when it is done by our own people. What about all those wars Hindu kings fought against Hindu kings and killed each other? I am sure you will say Hindu killing a Hindu is okay but not Muslims killing Hindus. I don’t buy that logic.
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Gatekeeper!
Like I said before, you confused child of secular nature, please hang on till weekend and I will come back at you–with all the ‘real’ history guns blazing. Till then live your secular technicolor dream:)
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That you find fault with reforms being reactionary is very idealistic. For a person playing the devil’s advocate it is difficult to establish a much stronger case but I offer actual movement, even if at a glacial pace, as a positive, especially in contrast to other ‘systems’.
I am too young/ignorant to be knowledgeable of the PT –VT incident. But I will be very appreciative if you can summarize that incident for me. Even though I am knowledgeable enough to assume the worst, being quite disapprovingly familiar with the madhwa line of attack, who even detest the notion that even isvara-jeeva bheda is perhaps not sacrosanct, I would say it is quite a distance for VT to have traveled even to begin to address the caste discrimination question. At the very least it shows an open-ness to current realities.
The maramma is issue is also very interesting. To say the least, even the most orthrodox, would not take the false god/ kafir line, even when aiming to ‘hegemonize tribal spirituality’. For, I speak from knowledge of knowing orthrodox math followers with ‘tribal’ gods serviced by non brahminical liturgy as mane devarus. Then again there are the much publicized incidents of the now discredited Kanchi head, & his efforts at boosting ‘tribal’ temples. Contrast this with the hegemony imposed by the harvesting missions, if Eurpoe & Americas do not interest you, then I offer NE, TN & Orissa not to mention, east Mysore.
I would buy your argument if ghazni had left varanasi, ujjaini & dwaraka intact. I would buy your argument, if atleast the bouddha movement survived west of the sindhu. I would also buy your argument if your ‘source’ were not arrogant enough to consider Persian/Arabic sources as valid & more dangerously, complete & the only tenable, basis for studying as ‘secular’ a subject as kalidasa.
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DB,
The adamant child of rightism, I offer myself to your blazing history guns. And I am definitely waiting. Good luck oiling your guns.
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TS,
Even I know Brahmin followers, particularly in the Kukke belt, who offer obseience to tribal gods. And many of the Gods are mane devaru of Brahmins. But Brahmins will worship Kalkura with red flowers and offerings and once in a while, donate a sheep or a goat or a hen to be sacrificed and later eaten by Shudras.
But you still see that distance and the disavowal of tribal gods. Why not worship tribal gods in tribal ways? But then the philosophical argument of worshipping according to one’s belief is upheld. Following this argument, can a Dalit sacrifice a goat to Tirupathi Thimmappa if he wishes so?
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The history of islamic expansionism is littered with looting, raping, killing and desecration of symbols of other religions. The Ottomans wiped out the native artifacts and worshiping places of dozens of countries when they invaded them. Wherever Muslim influence spread it spread sectarianism and hatred to other native religions. From Yugoslavia to Nigeria they left pockets of intolerant Muslim enclaves. The Muslim desecrated the Temple mount in Israel and built the mosque on it, they razed temples in India and built mosques on their places. They criticise any other religion but the moment one of their own says something about the unacceptable practices of Islam ( satanic verses) they put a fatwa on them. They are so intolerant that any one dared to produce their prophet’s image is responded with the call to murder and death. They should understand that the whole non-islamic world disapproves their practices and their intolerance. No wonder so many terrorists are bred among them.
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Ranga,
You said it very correctly. Let’s watch how the Gatekeeper will turn and twist and turn these simple facts into a pleasant history:)
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Ranga and DB,
You want to see how I twist this? I don’t twist anything. I just place on the table whatever I know. If you read Edward Said and Amartya Sen you will realize that while Jews were prosecuted across Europe it was Islamic countries that welcomed them. And lets also not forget that Islam’s contribution is phenomenal in that it engendered many travellors/historians and scholars (remember their contribution to Algebra?). The Middle Ages definitely turned that over and Islam slid into the dark ages out of which it has not come out even now. But don’t try to generalize history by saying that all Muslim invasions were bloody. Many were but aren’t all invasions bloody? Why single out Muslims for it? Have you not heard about the crusades and the tactics that Christian forces indulged in?
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Gatekeeper
It is amusing how little you know about the origin of Algebra! For many years, the West mistakenly believed that the decimal number system came from Arabs–then it was conclusively shown it came from India. It is the same thing with Algebra. The concept of zero, polynomials, and calculus–all of these came from India. Just use some simple logic here–if Arabs invented Algebra why did they not invent calculus? You know why? Simple–they had no fundamentals in Algebra–the Hindu mathematicians had already worked out partial fractions, irrational numbers, advanced concepts in number theory and so on–and that is why we are Hindus. Arabs just invaded the universities in India and burnt down books–that shows their veneration to scholarship. They also degenerated quickly because they had no intrinsic thinkers among them–during their best times they were only foraging for food:)
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As well as contribution to Algebra I am also aware their contributions to suicide bombing, hijacking, public beheading, treating women as obscure objects, etc.. etc.. Talking about crusades and inquisitions, the Christian leaders from Popes to Archbishops have apologised and condemned them as barbaric. I do not know any Muslim leader of substance was brave enough stick his head above the parapet and apologise for their nafarious activities over the centuries and across continents. That is the difference.
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GK..
i didnot have it on my mind but mentioning kukke strikes some personal chord. Anyway there are other regions & people who have similar customs. In any case, the central point is given what ‘religions’ are & as familiar as you are with local histories & its complexities, it is surprising that you take the simplistic theories of those with pots in Lutyens literally, discounting what you actually see.
Hasn’t there been a major campaign against animal sacrifice in temples?
if that concern & appeal applies to bakrid, i’m not sure, but temples & other ‘hindu’ ceremonies i frequently hear of. talking of that, any ideas on the goings on at the deoband matha?
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TS
Irony is lost on GK! Watch him squirm and watch him spin his secular rayon:) I just can’t wait for the weekend to hoist him to the secular mast. Amazing how little he knows about Algebra–giving it all to the Arabs…
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Doddi Buddi, excellent posts. You make “cogent” sense. :) I’ve enjoyed reading you — thanks.
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NM
Thank you–there is more where it came from:)
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DB,
High time you stop bragging and come out in your blazing saffron colour. I am definitely waiting for it. And please feel free to draw on the energies and admiration of all your supporters. That does not bother me either.
And TS,
Banning animal sacrifice at temples is itself a conspiracy of Brahminism. If you read Kancha Illaiah, what is the difference between breaking a coconut while you buy a new car or sacrificing a hen? One is secular superstition as it does not involve blood shed (so nicely suits Brahmanical sensibilities) and other does and so should be changed? See how neatly all Shudra temples are being Brahmanized: Maramma becomes Marikamba. And Shudras content with small temples are now building Rajagopuras under the tutelage of Brahmins. Considering that each of these Rajagopuras need to be consecrated with a huge Yaga spread out for at least three days, that definitely keeps the Brahmin priest class laughing all the way to the bank. Don’t we see this trend all around us, particularly in the revival of local temples?
Coming back to the issue of animal sacrifice, the Adichunchanagiri temple allowed animal sacrifices when I was a kid. I have seen folks sacrifice animals to appease Bhairava. And if you know Tantra, that is what appeases Bhairava. But after Adichunchanagiri became a matha and the swamiji started flirting with Brahmin seers and through them Hindu rightwing forces, the temple has been sanitized. The Bhairava who enjoyed his share of meat and country liquor now drinks milk and subsists on a diet of fruits and palahara. That is cultural colonization for me.
Buddhism also has an argument against animal sacrifice, although it does not condemn meat eating. But promoting Brahminism in the guise of vegetarianism is unacceptable to me. With your sensitivity to local religious histories, I don’t understand why you can’t see it.
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Gatekeeper
You have given me much food for thought. I insist on seeing you through this weekend…I suspected a strong Kancha Ilaiah irrationality in you and I was not disappointed to see that now:) So more Hindutva cunningness, eh?
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I guess I will stop for now. I think we have flogged the dead horse too much. But DB, I will definitely save my last reply for you. And I too look forward to an exciting weekend.
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Be it custom or not, I have to admit that I hate animals being sacrificed in the name of religion. If Adi chunchanagiri Mutt has banned this, I think, it is a welcome gesture. Why kill an animal in the name of god? If at all someone wants to eat meat, animals should be killed in the most humane way. Infact, the Govt of Karnataka itself has banned sacrifice of animals for sacred rituals (true GK, there are some like you who would like to contine that heinous job). That being the case, why tag it to Brahminical sense? GK, you are talking utter nonsense and deviating out of script.
In any case, I am eagerly looking forward for the weekend post from DB.
We want DB! We want DB!! We want DB!!!
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Gatekeeper, IMHO you are talking through your a**.
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GK
I have not finished. My strong suggestion to all muslims and fellow travellers
is stop dancing around the issues. Because of their misplaced values and attitudes, they are under observation and trial pretty much around the world.
They should start apologising for their fickleness and extremism.
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Hi
Atlast i am happy to see the fall of the brahmins..i raised from a locality where the brahmins are dominant and i am from a lower caste.. when you live in those places you will really feel the pain of those brahmins…periyar and DR. AB should will be happy if they see the fall of brahmins…
Regards
Peri…
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@GK…maybe the invaders didnt know that the linga was a diety that was being worshipped, also they might have got the cruel pleasure of destroying the things that were looking the most beautiful ( like the narasimha staute , pillars). No one in their senses can come back without a tear drop after visiting Hampi
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Why should Sri Krishna temple be handed over to Govt? Do other Vokkaliga Mutts or Lingayath Mutts hand over their Property/Institutions to the Govt?
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Dear All,
Why fear when DB is here! :)
Gatekeeper!
You are a secular child of selective argumentative nature! After going through our dialogs I found that you are capable of great leaps in imagination studded with irrelevant facts. Your latest post is pasted below and I am going to go All Hindutva psycho on your secular ass. So here comes the trishul. Look for some erudition within “//” marks below:
/********************************************************/
Banning animal sacrifice at temples is itself a conspiracy of Brahminism. If you read Kancha Illaiah, what is the difference between breaking a coconut while you buy a new car or sacrificing a hen? One is secular superstition as it does not involve blood shed (so nicely suits Brahmanical sensibilities) and other does and so should be changed? See how neatly all Shudra temples are being Brahmanized: Maramma becomes Marikamba. And Shudras content with small temples are now building Rajagopuras under the tutelage of Brahmins. Considering that each of these Rajagopuras need to be consecrated with a huge Yaga spread out for at least three days, that definitely keeps the Brahmin priest class laughing all the way to the bank. Don’t we see this trend all around us, particularly in the revival of local temples?
//It is only to be expected and it is called progress. Just like the dalits who have gone beyond ‘hebbetu’ into education, they would prefer to have stylized names for their gods. May be you prefer them to maintain their dalitness by eating dead cows and bulls, eh? Wake up my secular savant, even dalits are wannabe ‘Brahmins’ whom you blame for all evils and shit! Once you educate a community they aspire for better things–do they want to be bitter toward the communities that had them subjugated? yes and no–the intelligent dalits look to improve themselves and that is only natural. I have a simple explanation for you: what you refer to as Brahminism is simply called awareness in Hindu society. Dalits have a choice–and some have exercised that choice by becoming Muslims (latest examples), some Christians and others Buddhists. So you see Dalits dont not like to be Dalits in the strict definition of what you want them to be–they would like to improve themselves by any means or form. Education though hard is probably the most realistic way. We can argue on that if you like.//
Coming back to the issue of animal sacrifice, the Adichunchanagiri temple allowed animal sacrifices when I was a kid. I have seen folks sacrifice animals to appease Bhairava. And if you know Tantra, that is what appeases Bhairava. But after Adichunchanagiri became a matha and the swamiji started flirting with Brahmin seers and through them Hindu rightwing forces, the temple has been sanitized. The Bhairava who enjoyed his share of meat and country liquor now drinks milk and subsists on a diet of fruits and palahara. That is cultural colonization for me.
//Once again, you are such an observant fellow, self-taught no doubt but lacking just that little bit of scholarship that can make you a better human being. Sure we can have animal sacrifices even today–then in the same breath do you like to have the village witch doctor treating you with the sacrifices of a few goats and hens, your extremely severe case of jaundice, bubonic plague, gonorrhea, diabetes, siphilis? Answer me Oh Wise Secular One!? So you see how easy it is for you to be a secular child laughing at the ‘Brahminical’ practices while ole Bhairava enjoys his meat and drink? Do you see the disconnect?//
Buddhism also has an argument against animal sacrifice, although it does not condemn meat eating. But promoting Brahminism in the guise of vegetarianism is unacceptable to me. With your sensitivity to local religious histories, I don’t understand why you can’t see it.
//I am glad you mentioned this–but the reality is all Brahmins fail the vegetarian test–you see they consume dairy products. QED. But they are not meat eaters although many of them eat meat and some have wittily said, only Indian cows are holy; the rest is fair game. Once again I have to whack your secular bottom–you misunderstood the very definition of vegetarianism! While you were raving and ranting about the Brahmins you forgot that little bit of basics.//
/*******************************************************/
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Yella OK DB gey Moderation Filter Yaakey?
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DB,
You paper tiger, alas you did what I suspected, brushing the entire question of caste discrimination under the carpet and concentrating on vegetarianism. If this was your blazing post that you were raving about, I am utterly disappointed.
Anyhow, I do not want to call names and keep this strictly professional. Your argument reminds me of a documentary on the History channel that I saw sometime ago. An African woman held her child as a witch doctor was marking the child’s body with a blade. The child was understandably crying as it was profusely bleeding. I felt terrible seeing this and thought someone should have educated this women better.
The documentary maker then interviewed an anthropologist who had studied the tribe. When asked if this custom was barbaric, the anthropologist said not at all. She said it is only the way we look in the west. For instance, the most barbaric thing for the African woman is to leave the child alone. The anthropologist said the African woman does not understand how Western women can leave their children and go out to work when the kids need them the most.
Now please dont tell me that I am advocating that women stop working and stay with the child. My argument is that of cultural relativism, which you may find hard to understand. What we really try to pass as evolution or progress is so often hegemony or cultural colonization.
And lest we forget, Brahmins were the greatest supporters of animal sacrifice at one point of time. Our Ashwamedha and Rajasuya yagnas indicate this. Buddha had to intervene when Bindusara, the father of Ashoka, was indulged in animal sacrifice under the tutelage of Brahmins. But as soon as they discovered the economic benefits of animal husbandry, they stopped animal sacrifice. What hypocrisy?
And loads and loads of studies exist on the politics of vegetarianism. For instance, how it has contributed to gentrification and to stop the movement of OBC/Dalit members into certain neighborhoods. Asking someone whether they are vegetarian to rent a house is an euphemism for are you a Brahmin.
And let me tell you: I turned a vegetarian after being a meat eater all my life. I have my own reasons for it. But I do support meat eating and non-interference in the lives and customs of OBCs and Dalits and I am against Brahminizing them.
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And thanks to everyone (including DB) who participated in this argument. I think I will end here and move on to some other post. Like I said, my last reply is out and I think it is befitting to end it here. Though we have different views, we kept this professional. Though someone said I talk through my a**, such minor irritations will be there.
I should particularly thank TS whose posts were the best for me as I got the greatest pleasure responding to them. TS, keep up the good job.
This is not to curry favor or put a lit on the discussion but my way of saying thank you.
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GK
You can run but you cannot hide from the searing heat of common sense. When you are beat you are trying to split hairs now–you closet ‘Brahmin’–you do believe in labels implicitly, don’t you? If you use a fraction of your common sense you will realize that once you give up a dogma, your mind is free and you can move on:) Nice try on sucking up to TS. Heh heh…Jai Bhairava! :)
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DB,
Looks like you should smoke a BD and sleep in peace. Whatever you think is common sense is socially constructed. Nothing is as simple as it appears. And me sucking up to TS? Well I thought I was being honest and decent and credit is due where it is. I am not a demagogue like you (Why fear when DB is here? that is the most imbecile thing I have heard).
And you may have all the time in the world to keep this going (I suspect you are on the RSS roles). Others have better things to do.
I thought I would end this in a graceful way. But if this is what you want you have it. You can’t even rebut me and you say I am running away? May be you should string your janiwara more tightly and petition the gods for more brains.
If you call this sucking so be it. TS is a more honorable opponent than you are. I dont think he broke the rules of democratic engagement, never bragged so badly and fizzled out in the end, and never said things like “whack your secular bottom” (that shows the extent you stoop to).
I know you will try to provoke me after this but I wont get provoked. You can have the last laugh and go on till you go insane.
And the way I will treat you from now on: not respond to you at all, not on any post. You can go on jeering and yelling but that is the way to teach good argumentation to people like you.
My parting shot: go school yourself in internet etiquettes and how to be professional and impersonal in an argument even before you have one.
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Gatekeeper
You have been given the gate pass! Use it wisely.
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Doddi Buddi and Gatekeeper, why are you guys getting personal with each other? Grow up! :) It’s only an argument. Life itself is an argument.
Instead of kachchaaDing like Deve Gowda and Siddharamaiah, enjoy my friend Jerry Pinto’s affectionate little rant in Tehelka’s “Culture Vulture” column:
The Brahmin Complex
By Jerry Pinto
I don’t know whether Indian Jungians have figured this one out, but we have an archetype of our own: the Brahmin. S/he is sometimes a physical entity, a person who enters your life and seems to be a whole lot better than you at almost everything. S/he is often a Brahmin by birth, but in many cases is not, and has been allowed by us to become our personal Brahmin.
Many Brahmins are worried about purity and authenticity. You can tell that this comes out of some strange notion of tribal or genetic purity, which runs in the face of established knowledge that we descended from one mitochondrial Eve who was probably African. (This must send shivers of horror down their spines but they will never admit to this. You will notice, however, that whenever they travel it is to western civilisations.) This extends to whatever analysis they are undertaking, whether it is genre purity (in cinema or writing) or the troubling question of how a nation that could produce wonderful indigenous cuisines could also enjoy Indian Chinese.
The Brahmin is also the repository of wisdom about your life. S/he will tell you whether you are in the wrong job, whether you are in the wrong relationships or living in the wrong city. If you are doing the right thing the Brahmin will tell you that too, so that you may feel validated. The horrible thing is that you will feel validated.
This is because almost all the things that are considered ‘culture’ have long been their preserve. Even where these have been mishandled to the point of extermination — classical music, classical dance, poetry of almost all kind — their stranglehold continues, unchallenged.
Of course, the problem does not lie in them. It never does. The problem lies in us. It always does. That’s part of the indoctrination and like almost everything you were told, it’s only half true. We share, in this nation, a deep desire to worship the Brahmins in our lives and an equal desire to overthrow them. Which of the two is the problem depends on whether we have been recently validated or denied.
Most Brahmins know this as well. So they make sure they never come out of the shadows. They hide there, offering insecurity rather than opinion. “Oh?” they ask, “Do you really think so?”
Your response? “I’m trying it out. I’m laying it out,” we back-pedal. Each time, we’re returned to the status of naughty children, and the feeling of unworthiness increases and the cycle perpetuates itself. May 12 , 2007.
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….and I thought we were just trying to make a decent living!
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Forgive me, but I honestly don’t understand the outrage. Every job is honorable. Why should any job be considered low or high??? Every job needs to be done by one or another for the society to function. If one takes up any available job and tries to make an honest living, it must be highly appreciated. Should it really matter what clan or caste his ancestors came from? It seems to me that a foriegner is again trying to stir our emotions and gain from it. If nothing else he gains credibility because so many people seem to care about what he has to say and needless to say undue publicity.
Divide and rule applied all over again, albeit in a new format.
Why should this article merit any space on Churmuri?? Topics worthy of discussion would be -How can the living conditions of the manual laborers be made better? Shouldn’t there be a law that sets a minimum wage per hour for any worker that ensures decent living for the worker? How come the communist parties of our country fail to come up with constructive ideas for the betterment of the working class?
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Mysorean,
Jerry Pinto Beaner has had a traumatic upbringing–probably due to the strong presence of local priests in long smocks in his early life. Here is a rhetorical question: how can you beat somebody who is always better than you? Information is knowledge. The latest Brahmin today is the Internet–and Google is Maha Brahmana:) In time, you will see the lessening of unworthiness…besides there are large numbers of retards and dunces even among Brahmins and all things being equal, they provide a counterweight to the basic fallacy that all Brahmins are born mathematicians, physicists, and so on:)
Then we can extend this argument and claim all Westerners are Brahmins. then we get into Hitler’s Herrenvolk and all that…
Perhaps Pinto beans can look to his own kind and see how absurd are the borrowed names from Portugal–a bunch of cross-bearing ‘Brahmins’ who sailed the seas dispensing the mercy of the Lord while putting the real articles to the sword in Goa and elsewhere–these pygmies of faith brooked no resistance and the wily Brahmins simply took on the same Portuguese titles and waxed their biblical eloquence in a very short period of time:) and they secretly performed their rituals, kept their clannishness intact all the while taking in holy waters at the local igregia.
Moral: If you can’t beat them, join them!
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It’s a job that pays a salary – and he/she applied for it?
The same fellow would have quite happily done this job to support himself in the USA – had he managed to get a student visa.
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Oh come on how can 3% population dominate 97%?
And who has reservation? 97%
So who are the actual hypocrites?
Arey India is not going to change. Brahmins there have no hope….
Thats why, my call is that Brahmins start immigrating to other countries just like the Jews.
If India doesn’t want Brahmins, then the Brahmins don’t want you India.
You all OBC and other reservation class who claim that they are minority can live happily ever after in India.
India is not a land of justice. Atleast this exists in the west and generally all life is based on justice. So, bye bye.
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Raju Kumar , YOU SAID IT.
“IF INDIA DOES NOT WANT BRAHMINS , BRAHMINS DO NOT WANT INDIA”
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how can you give such a title. brahmins are the upper caste of our society so others are jealous of it. we get our jobs and addmission by fair means not by favour of any politician. in ashutosh’s blog i read mr yadav said bhahmins are beggers . so,for your kind information accordind to are ancient culture studies are ment for brahmins not of other low class people . and cleaning toilet is the job of other cast not brahmins.andhow do i believe that person shown in the photograph is a brahmin.
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I don’t find anything wrong in upper caste people cleaning toilets. Maybe, it is wrong targetting Brahmins alone. Other upper-caste people too should suffer the pains dalits have been for years
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Has nobody a kind word for our Dinakaran, torn apart by caste vultures?
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I’d have liked to see facts/numbers not just pertaining to a specific occupation within a metro area but India (or atleast states) as a whole. Such numbers as presented does not present a holistic view and must be interpreted appropriately.
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Whatever it could be but still Brahmins are highly respected by all over the world.
Brahmins are really grate if they are really true brahmins.(Those who are not started eating Non Veg, Etc..etc..)
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Utter nonsense… Can u not find anything else to write other than CASTE and it’s consequences??? You the press isn’t letting India forget casteism!! Every now and then you need to ignite a spark to add zing to your existence. Facts should be of some use to the mankind. Have u heard of some research tat says ” people who scratch their asses twice a day have lesser chances of dying with a heart attack?” That kind of research is done by people like you. By writing provocatively have you changed one bit about the Brahmin toilet cleaners or the Dalit ragpickers?? I request people not to add fuel to the fire such jobless people light in our society. Lets be more practical and talk about the things that are really important. CHURMURI… spare us the MASALA and let us have a healthy blog.
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Churumuri is as healthy as that happy dog from Naayandanahalli. As for its provocativeness, I wonder why people like URA, Yed, and others of all political and literary hues have not tried to shut it down.
If Churumuri were located in Tamil Nadu where not a single anti-government idea is tolerated, it would have been jammed out existence as soon as it first appeared in cyberspace.
Let it say crisp as long as it encourages free thought and libels none.
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My toilet says, “I never ask the caste of the person who cleans me. All that matters is my not turning into a source of diseases.”
If Brahmins have to clean toilets to make a living, so be it. It is as honorable a profession as any.
Incidentally Karnataka has seen its share of noble Brahmins: Gundu Rao, Winiwink Shastri, Ramakrishna Hegde and scores of others. It has also had its share of crooked government Brahmins. Neither kind can save us.
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Brahmins run everything in India. what you are talking about?. 100 brahmin poor vs 700million poor?. and you are crying brahmin are poor?.
That is why india is a sick country. India is racist country still run by brahmins.
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Brahmins get out of India , get out of BCCI , get out of cricket. We do not want you!. Brahmins are evil.
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India to be FREE , there should not be caste, that means no brahmin , no temple , no priest , no vedic mumbo jumbo. Then every one is equal.
There is no one is brahmin. It is evil concept of controlling the weak.
India have long way to go before to catch up with western free thinking and freedom.
West is not perfect either. Jewish run West especially america and even the world certain extent by proxy. No us president can say anything against israel or he will be shot like jfk by jewish right wingers who are everywhere.
Idea is this , jewish plan is keep the world worry about war , meanwhile they can sneak upon the world establish jewish kingdom as the one true super power. They are on their way.
They create wars in the world , america is not creating wars as muslims think , it is people who run america (they are not in the govt , they are federal reserv bank) , wars keep world thinking on something else. Israel need war to expand itself and even capture part of iraq and egypt in the next big war.
if the host country found out their intention , they leave them high and dry like they left germany and russia.
The next probable destination for jews is australia once they destroy america.
This is not new…it is happening past 2000 years…jews want to establish open jews super power.
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In India though the hinduism and temples are blocking people from freeing themself clutches of caste / brahmin ideology.
There is only one group Human but he just destroying himself with racse/caste divisions
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brahmins are facing positive discrimination , results from discrimination followed by them in history.
its a good sign for modern india which shows that other cast are also participating in indian social and political life.
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@Alex
Watch ur words bro,…. Am sure you are living in India because of a tolerant Religon in India called HINDUISM… You Stake-witch-burners can’t take the growth and spread of Hinduism in Europe or U.S.A or U.K.
You still think You can brainwash by talking sweetly and yet tirelessly try to Harvest Souls and Plant Churches …
Hmm.. You guys sure have not learnt anything since Inquisition???
Last i heard AICC(All India Congress(Christian) Commitee) held a secret closed door meeting to tackle the challenges brought forward by the accidental death of Sonia’s “protege”.. Samuel Rajashekara Reddy!!!!!!
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the modern life which is continuing now, in future will bring even more entertainment to non-brahmins…
but the modern day stupids atleast think with some commonsense I believe. Years before brahmins showed discrimination…none of us saw/experience what happened really in that period other than listening from someone…and some of the stories were manipulated by the past rulers (britishers/moghuls) against hinduism…
because our earlier generations experienced some problems so now we have to punish brahmins…interesting reaction from all other communities
but the fact is after independence, in 63yr period all the systems were collapsed just because of keeping the brahmins away from the participation…if we see carefully the systems currently all the other communities following were taught in the past by Brahmins only…but in return some of the brahmins adopted eating meet, learned all the anti-social activities and will continue further…
just for the understanding, people who blame the brahmins for discrimination or some thing else why they cannot see the developments they contributed to the country without taking advantage of the power and became poor….the current criticizers once upon a time were working people for their daily food. They never showed interest to learn…the current situation(reversion) is just because of the brahmins…in the past brahmins thought that having education will make the person to live better respectfully but they would not have expected these people will become to their teachers….
just for example if we see yoga, the modern day science could not help for some problems..but the so called ancient technology is helping many western people….but unfortunate thing is people at home cry against their teachers, their systems….
before make any comment or criticism the person should think in neutral way but not taking one side and writing all the feelings for thier underdeveloped thinking…
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The brahmins of today are nothing more than the sudras of the vedic age. They are compel to perform anything possible for their livelihood. They are being employed as cooks in the state of Manipur. They can feed anyone as they were regrded to be pure. With the dawning of class based stratification system their status as good as cleaners, who are engaged to collect the leftovers and cleaning of the same. It is just as a form of division of labour. They should be included in the minority category and extend the facilities to come at par with the others.
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People like to begin history with their generation with rare exceptions extending it to parents generation and I do not see Brahmins viewing the perspective any different.
I’m tired of listening about Brahmin suffering. We should accept our historical supremacy and be willing to help others. We are not any special and we only were superior because of our historical advantage.
Karma is a bitch and it is biting us now. We should try to integrate with non brahmins and keep our fake brahmin supremacy notes in the trash bin.
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of course in olden days brahmins are dominant over many casts.but how can the present generation be punished for that.there is nothing wrong in cleaning the toilet or working as a coolie.but why cant he get a government job though he is qualified enough for that.
The brahmin student who scores more than 1100 in +2 is being denied a medical college seat.Is this the loss for the particular student alone.No my friends it is the loss for the country as a whole.but whereas the student who scores 900 gets a seat easily since because he is not a forward caste.
I think only the deserved people should get deserved jobs.None should be benefited since because he belongs to a particular caste.
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Horrible to see and listen! Where has gone the sacrifice of lakhs of bramhin generals of freedom struggle? This is because of silence maintained by our brothern- Dear brothers don’t loose confidence Gayathrimatha blessings are with us shortly a new political movement will comeup in the country to unite us be brave we are all behind each other
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Bullshit pandits …..
Bhikhsha time now folks ….
Coz thats wat u deserve …..u saw as u reap :-)
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@Alex:
My dear converted Hindu, I think you should get out if at all an Indian has to get out.
You are one of those brainwashed idiots who has been converted…rome was not built in a day.
We hindus have been plundered of our wealth, knowledge and prestige over the last 1000 years…we are only trying to recoup in the last 60+ years.
We needed the time to revitalize and improve the country..its the hindus who have fought against the mlechas and the whites…just to save one another…
You were one amongst us…but now some missionary idiot came and said that christianity has no caste/division/creed…what is your answer to racism…go to britain/europe or america…even if u say u r Alex whatever…you are still a brownie…cocunut…brown on the outside and white inside…you are less than a third grade in america..remember that…caste/division lies and is prevailing in every civilization…its just that you are dumb enough not to realise it..
For that matter there are syrian christians,malabar christians, bommons of mangalore, tamil christies, andhra christies, goa christies…you have a seperate church for one another…you have divisions and superiority among yourselves….if it is not…then why create dalit christians…there you want to show your superiority again.
Caste-ism was not created to make one person superior over the other…else why would we hindus accept Valmiki ramayana..valmiki was a hunter a schedule caste, Ravana was a brahmin…we treat him as a villian..Rama is our Hero…he was a kshatriya..krishna was a golla…belonged to kuruba/yadava community…
We respected knowledge..knowledge was wealth my dear alex.
Brahmins are the ones who had the vedic knowledge…veda = science…haven’t you heard of vimanas and atomic warfare in our culture….even before an alla or a jesus came into existence..we thought science to the world when the whole Europe was in the caves.
We had varnas…not castes…costos is a stupid portugese word. Varnas means a classification of workforce…like how we have engineers doctors scientists etc..
This concept has been mis interpreted and mis understood over the period of time…Thanks to our stupid and greedy politicians and historians.
Well I can go on to prove your Jesus story was a fake and is nothing but a collection of all the other cultures like egyptian paganism, judaism etc.
Did you know your so called jesus was born on Jan 6th…writtern in the early books…later made dec25th because most other religious gods like judas/egyptian god were born on dec 25th…this was nothing but the day that marked as the longest distance b/w earth and sun in a year and also to ensure that the new converts dont start celebrating their previous religious practices.
I can wane and wack your religious beliefs…with full contempt..But i will stop here.
If you have any consience..do a shuddhi karan and get back to your original religion…Hinduism.
Dont dare talking non-sense about Hinduism…when you dont know a thing about it.
Dharmo Rakshathi Rakshathaha
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@humanity… Hardhitting reality. Well said.
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further alex
is the earth flat, your religion said so did’nt it?
i’m from the army and we never had the shit you talk about
the kindest thing i can say to you:-
cock up
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When one bramin cleans toilet its national tragedy. When one dalit boy completes 10+2, its news. This is year 2012. So much for the progress made on caste emancipation.
http://kannada.oneindia.in/news/2012/06/13/districts-help-devadasis-son-become-doctor-065889.html
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the people shown in cliping in actual are not brahmin, it is the only way to demoralised brahmin
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reservation should be everywhere , even in Private jobs , all India shd be offered in a plate to Dalits and Muslims ,
Brahmins and other Savarna shd consider escaping this s****ole called india , its not the Holy Land adorned by their ancestors , its worlds dirtiest and filthiest country with most corrupt Politicians and system, let these People Enjoy the benefits of birth in lower caste , Reservation ,Age Relaxation etc etc , because their forefathers were discriminated some 100 years back , why not ,yeah that their Right
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i agree with you abt the facts now they are in very
verse conditions because i saw it .they are treated badly.no importance .on society ,
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We all forget for a moment that WE are Indians and India is a democratic country. Caste is only an identity of multifarious groups occupied this subcontinent before 1947, and that should not be having any other bearing for the Indians. Now let us work on the development of Indians. If everyone is ready shed down the great label of caste and community then it would be sensible to think about. If someone feels x/y are great it is unfortunate. People who express concern for the brahmin community, it appears, not exposed to the living of other communities.
There are few tribal communities live in abject poverty but still function under their traditional administrative framework in a diluted way. The government support does not mean much to them. All slum dwellers in any of the major cities are not anyway better than the members of the so called brahmin individuals.
so think of Indians at large and work for
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Sounds funny. These are not brahmins at all. The frenchman has a very scanty knowledge of Hinduism. Infact 99% of Indians are morons when it comes to religion and caste. Division of Indian society was never by birth but by their deeds (actions). These people are not brahmins. Those who have knowledge and humility (both) and lead a disciplined life only qualify to be brahmins. Those who don’t understand are ignorants and can continue to shout about the so called brahmins by birth in dire straits.
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India came into the 21st century all guns blazing and the World is in awe of the Oldest country in the World bcos a vast majority of the Indian popolution hitherto denied education by a opppressive Brahminical discriminatory order gained education,employment and subsequent economic prosperity due to widespread reach of oppurtunity due to appropriate reservation as recommended by Mandal commission and its implementation by Prime Minister Mahatma V.P.Singhji.Only after all class of people led by Mulayams,Lalus,Mayawatis,Paswans,Devilals,ChandraBabus,
Gowdas got their share of political power and thus just share in education and economic prosperity due to the Indian OBC/SC/ST majority….Liberalisation that happened just later than Mandal commission recommendations implementation ,Globalisation and Y2K oppurtunities for the “educated” Indian Middle Class spread oppurtunities like wild fire to vast majority of the Indian midlle class and thus economic progress…. If not for Mandal commission and subsequent availability of education oppurtunity for large sections,the economic boom might have bypassed India with only the miniscule minority Brahmins enjoying the fruits of economic boom for themselves….OBC/SC/STs leave RSS/Brahmin Gulag and think for yourselves….BE YOR OWN MASTERS….
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If a pickpcket/thief is caught redhanded will he not get a thrashing black and blue….this social/economic thrashing Brahmins are facing is product of Brahmins stealing/thieving other peoples education/oppurtunity/economy/land/money for thousands of years by spreading canard like caste/creed/higher /lower/hierarchy/hotch potch among people to suit their greed/grotesque designs,for their own self serving benefits…Indian society which is without caste and all evils during the time of Buddha and Mahavira was torn apart by these self serving Brahmins with caste canard….Now the Indian society is slowly awakening from the induced slumber due to widespread availability of education and subsequent enlightment…Thus the thieving/stealing Brahmin is getting caught and receiving royal thrashing….Brahmins are blights/pests on the Indian society….India will be best served without them….
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Discriminating others on basis of caste & creed and Monopolising education for themselves for thousands of years and thus knowledge is passed only to their descendants and denying others the same for thousands of years will definitely put others in disadvantage….Its the bookish Jews who are more knowledgeable in the West…The tribe which familiarises itself with the written word thoroughly and for thousands of years at the same time putting all others at tremendous disadvantage by denying them chance to partake the WRITTEN WORD/knowledge by chicanery,spreading canard like caste /creed/untouchability/hierarchy is always at huge advantage over others….the case of Ekalavya….Only to provide level playing field for all reservation is introduced… Let me point out….Less than 3% of Brahmins are enjoying 72% general quota…. Proportional reservation on the basis of caste census should be implemented…For all and vast majority of the Indian population to enjoy the fruits of Indias economic growth…
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WHere is Brahmins?& Brahimnism?
Those who adhere to the practise and custom of Brahmins are Brahimsn and all others are not brahmins.Hence in today:s culture, emploment oppurtunity, and salary wise,only well educated persons deserve,NO casete /religion will henceforth hold good for a good living.Now business, good rumerative employment only needed.
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The fact is really disheartening and saddening. The best act, as brahmin, we can help the deprived person in the brahmin community to establish a good and decent living. This would be first act, which would slowly change the situation for them in society. Even though the government is also to blame, mainly for the hardship, that is being faced by a group of its citisen. Without waiting for the government’s action, let every one in the brahmin community take pledge and resolve to change the situation for ourselves. Sathyameva Jayathe!
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@Srivi
When we always have a penchant to point out the Ekalavya story we forget that the same Dronacharya was killed when on a silent meditative state – then isn’t it an injustice against Brahmins – to point out only the Ekalavya story always.
And how ill informed you are when not going on to observe the torture people underwent under Jainism & Buddhism – read the story of Maridatta, which explains the human sacrifices done at those times.
Kumarila bhatta the Vedic Scholar was thrown by Buddhists from the Roof for hiding his identity as a Vedic Pundit, during his study at the Buddhist monastery. Shankara Acharya came soon to take oath by the side of Kumarila Bhatta to uplift Vedic heritage from the Gallows of Buddhism
I do appreciate & thank you for vetoing for population proportional reservation based on caste census.
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For Interested readers, Buddhism eroded Vedic traditions & imposed its own Sharyar laws on people, late in 9th Century. It involved ritualistic sacrifices of even humans. Also it involved a practice of Shunyavada – which upheld a notion of nothingness & it was denying the existing of any progressive thoughts on raising one’s status. It denied existance of Hindu Deities such as Creator Brahma, Eshwara / Vishnu the destroyers of all evils.
Seeing the miseries of Public under these barbaric rulers, Adi Shankaracharya took up the task of re discovering the Ancient Vedic tradition & spreading it across India. This caused a major upheaval with the reopening of Many Hindu Temples across India – to re instate a Vedic Hindu religion of liberal values of nature worship the practice of which is of a universal nature
So the phenomena of oppression is common occurance at the peak of any relegion’s growth. Generalizing it and piling it up on Hindus and particularly on Brahmins can be called an act of apathy & negligence
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Srivi,
Pls note Ekalavya is one instance where oppression happened, however we have even other instances like killing of Dronacharya which too is immoral. Further explaining, Dronacharya was in a meditative state when he was killed by a Kshatiya.
Can we take this case too – that a Brahmin was treated so unfairly. This is happening even today. Please clarify
So please do not state this age old formula to prove oppression by Brahmins. Because this story alone cannot be quoted which makes it clear that it is one sided story.
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While a number of bathroom cleaning chemicals are available in the market today, most of them have a high level toxicity in themselves.
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