In a move pregnant with possibilities, two US Senators have asked nine Indian IT firms—(in alphabetical order) i-Flex, Infosys, L&T, Mphasis, Patni, Satyam, TCS, Tech Mahindra, Wipro—to disclose details of their workforce to see how they have been using the H1B visa program. The lawmakers, one Republican, one Democrat, contend that the H1B visa, which was introduced by the US to help people from all over to come and work in the US was being abused and misused to displace qualified American workers.
The Senators’ missive, coming on the eve of comprehensive immigration reform legislation aimed at increasing the H1B visa quota for companies, uses the dreaded F-word (“fraud”) and say the program was not being used as originally intended by Congress. “Too many H1B visas are being used to facilitate outsourcing of American jobs to other countries,” Senator Richard Durbin (R) says.
So, is the H1B visa game over? Or will influential American businesses along have their way? Will the bottomline of Indian companies using the H1B visa plank as their launchpad suffer as a result of likely curbs? Or, like Indian politicians, are the US Senators only playing to the gallery on the eve of an election year?
The US senators are playing to the lobby of IEEE and the programmers guild .However thats a minority group when compared the the Tech Lobby like Microsoft,IBM and Intel . The Question here is not how Microsoft , IBM and Intel got benefitted from the visa program . Because all the above US giants only filed for couple of hundreds out of 65000 Quota . It was the Indian companies which have been abusing and using the H1B to where they are not supposed to be .
Let me cite you an example .
There is one consultant related to me who recently got laid off and is on H1B . There was a opening in the same city for exactly the same skill set . Since I knew both the Client and the Indian Company I approached the client and sent him the resume of the person . Client readily agreed and asked me to come through the preferred vendor ( One of the Indian Consulting Company) .When I approached the Indian Company they said they cannot afford the salary ( Market rate) ..they have someone in offshore for 55K which is way below the market rate for specified skill .
This way the Co’s are ignoring the local talent ( available in US) and want to bring in at a lesser wage . This way if the Indian consultant works for 2 years they make money and show 30% growth year after year .
To sum up the companies are killing the market and under cutting american wage . The h1B was not for that purpose ..it was supposed to find a talent which is ‘UNAVAILABLE’ in local market and go overseas to recruit one . What is happening in every US city is displacing one american worker .
Wonder what effect this would all have on the firms to whom the letter has been written. Will they file for H1b from next year (if the program continues to exist in its current form)? What will happen to all the H1bs they have filed this year?
And from the news reports (and the letter written to them) it seems these companies dont seem to have a problem breaking (at the least circumventing) the law. Would be interesting to see how these ‘ethical’ companies react to this one. Will they rant against the US politicians the way they do against the government in Karnataka?
Most Indians get their H1b before coming to the U.S. Most of these people come on H1B to get trained to fake five years of experience in the U.S. For the first 3 to 6 months at least, these people are not getting paid. On the other hand, graduate internationals that graduated from U.S. schools and who are very smart to get a good job find themselves competing with lies. Very sad story that I am living for the second consecutive year!
Copy of one of the letters sent by Grassley/Durbin
——————————————————————————–
May 14, 2007
Mr. Nanden M. Nilekani
Chief Executive Officer
Infosys Technologies Limited
6607 Kaiser Drive
Fremont, California 94555
Dear Mr. Nilekani:
As members of the Senate Judiciary Committee Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security and Refugees, we have a responsibility to oversee and evaluate our country’s visa policies. We have been concerned about reported fraud and abuse of the H-1B and L visa programs, and their impact on American workers. We are also concerned that the program is not being used as Congress intended.
While some Members of Congress have focused on increasing the annual cap of the H-1B program, we believe it is important to understand how H-1B visas are being used by companies in the United States. We have received helpful data from the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service with regard to H-1B visa approvals in 2006 for the top 200 participating companies. Your company was one of the top companies on the list. Therefore, we are requesting your cooperation in providing additional statistics and information on your use of H-1B visa workers.
First, some groups, such as the Programmers Guild, have analyzed the wages paid to H-1B visa holders. They have found that the average annual salary of foreign workers is significantly lower than that of new U.S. graduates.
Second, a number of consulting firms reportedly recruit foreign workers and then outsource the individuals to other job sites or companies. Many of the top 20 companies that used H-1B visas in 2006 are firms, such as yours, that specialize in offshore outsourcing.
Third, a number of firms have allegedly laid off American workers while continuing to employ H-1B visa holders. The American people are concerned about such lay offs at a time when the demand for visa issuances and the recruitment of foreign workers appear to be increasing.
Because of these concerns, we seek your cooperation in answering the following questions:
NUMBERS
How many United States citizens do you employ in the United States?
Is your company an H-1B dependent employer?
How many visa petitions did you submit to the Citizenship and Immigration Service for Fiscal Year 2007?
Of the total number of petitions requested, how many have been approved for Fiscal Year 2007, if known?
How many H-1B visa holders is your company currently employing? What percentage of your total workforce are H-1B visa holders?
What is the average age of the H-1B visa holders that your company currently employs?
What is the average number of years of experience of your employed H-1B visa holders?
Please describe your efforts to recruit Americans for the positions for which you employ H-1B workers.
WAGES
What is the average wage of your company’s H-1B visa holders? What is the median wage? What is the highest and the lowest salaries for those H-1B visa holders currently employed by your company?
What is the average wage of your company’s workers who are United States citizens in the same occupations?
OUTSOURCING
Of the 4,908 visas your company received in 2006, how many of those workers are currently employed and paid by Infosys Technologies Limited?
Of the 4,908 visas your company received in 2006, how many were outsourced to other companies and how many employees’ salaries were paid for by a firm other than Infosys Technologies Limited?
LAY OFFS
Has your company experienced any layoffs in the United States in the past year? Any lay offs in 2005? If so, how many people lost their jobs?
If your company has laid off workers in the United States, what job positions were part of that lay off?
If your company has laid off workers in the United States, how many of those workers were H-1B visa holders?
If your company has laid off workers in the United States, did any H-1B visa holders replace those dislocated workers, or take over any of the laid off employee’s job responsibilities?
We appreciate your cooperation, and respectfully request that you respond to our questions no later than May 29, 2007.
Sincerely,
Charles E. Grassley
United States Senator
Richard J. Durbin
United States Senator
__________________
Excellent analysis DG!
Finally H1-B scam is getting some scrutiny.
DG, bahut dhanyavaad.
Amriki Congresswalon ne anpe Bhartiya IT walon ka bhanda fod diya hai.
Curious to see how Shri Nilekani will respond.
Expect to see Infosys stock declining on the back of this news…
as also TCS, Wipro and other IT companies stocks…
DG, Awesome analysis and input…..I wonder what Mr. Nilekani has to say, or maybe he will wait for the next CEO to respond???
For sure H1-B ‘game’ is never over…until the Microsoft’s and IBM’s and intel’s are there, H1-B will survive.
I am not in IT or any other tech business. But I am on an H1-B and in my field (financial services), all H1-Bs to my knowledge are paid market wages. Applicants to a position include Americans and foreigners and the fact that a person might be on an H1-B is incidental. There are no “consultants” that hire H1-Bs and farm them out to companies like mine.
Of late, I have seen that applicants tend to be people in the industry who are already on H1-Bs in other companies. Many Americans just don’t apply and I am not quite sure why that happens.
This does not take away anything from DG’s analysis or what the reality is in the IT field. But the side effect on any cap or ban on H1-Bs will be felt in industries such as mine which don’t abuse that visa.
DC for P, TS for VP.
(true politician style self promotion by TS)
transfer-a?
ayyo wrong thread.
DG sorry.
The companies listed to repond would hire a lobbying firm/ and start lobbying .However lobbying is usually done to introduce a law or ruling but not for bending them .
They would also start first by hiring a law firm and format their response so that every word is carefully thought of ? It would be hard to convince these top ranking Judiciary members without being candid about their operations .
You can do everything in the Free World until the point you start rubbing the white skin the wrong way .
DG correct.
G3S…
yaako posts upload agthilla. just wrote a response to DB. its gone.
Yelli TS?
Post again!
ouch DG…I am not sure white color really matters. Well, there is probably only one color which matters….the “green” baby!!! That’s all the corporations care about, let’s accept it…..nay ?
test…
DB..
posted twice deleted twice.
Well DG, i agree with you, indian companies or misusing H1B visa’a and providing opportunities for the people from different parts of india, and allowing them to grow to become like you. Now you are in a good position and writing all nonsence posting against indian companies, tell me what you did ? Are you capable of generating one job for the people from your place atleast, As an indian you don’t have any moral right to issue comments againt indian companies which are generating lots and lots of opportunities for indians and making their life better.
Pingback: If Murthy can be why not muthry???
TS
Send email then…
Sridhar- answer / adding to your post.
I recall reading DG’s comment on hiring an Mexican( he wrote that he was an illegal immigrant) to weed grass and paid $30. Why?. becuase , Iam sure it was much lesser rather than contracting American guy/ firm. Why did one pay less than the market rate . If individual does it – it is OK – not when a firm does it.
I can guess what this will be leading to-denying H1Bs for Indians which I think is good. Don’t tell me H1Bs in any profession are paid salary at the market going rate. Also I know a few of relatives who are H1Bs and I do not like to be in their situation. They live in a foreign country without a proper resident status which they often find very uncomfortable.
Probably your relatives – there are several of them who are in H1 doing high quality stuff. and moreover – what is the market Rate crap ?. If a guy gets denied becuase of the Market rate – then it shows about his/ her ability . there are many more criteria for being employed.
consider the technology , and the company offers a person a chance to learn and grow further with knowledge then salary is not the criteria. Maybe if a person is doing Cut and paste work then Yes -market rate is the way to go.
Naveen ,
What crap are you putting forth ? What is an high tech job ? Can you define ?
Looks like all your relatives are working in NASA building space shuttles ?
I am talking about JAVA/ .NET programmers , Data base Administratiors , ERP Consultants , basis Consultants , Testing/CM consultants,
System side programmers , C – C++-C Sharp programmers , Mainframe programmers etc not ‘Rocket science scientists’ .
A typical salary( not exceptional) for a Java / .NET programmers is anywhere between 55K – 85k between Junior to senior experience .
A typical ERP Consultant earns between 75K – 110K based on experience and a BW consultant rates go upto 120K .
On an hourly basis anywhere between 50$ – 140$ based on what technology one is working .
Most Indian Companies recruit maybe 2006 graduates give them 6 weeks training and send them onsite . They are paid a starting salary of
20-25K Indian rupees and a per diem of 1800$ – 2500$ . Consultants who are on short terms assignment are usually cramped in smaller apartments
and are not even provided a Car . If you want true testimonials of their treatment I can provide also providing their contacts so you can talk to them .
Indian Companies bid against themselves with an Onsite rate of 50-55$/ hour for an ERP project and 11-18$/hour for an offshore consultant .
about 5 years back at a Fortune 10 company where I was working .There were layoff of 2500 American workers in a single month and tenders
were called from 5 Indian Consulting company . TCS was the lowest with 9$/ Hour and Infosys was 18$/hour for an offshore .
The above mentioned contracts were not for a ‘CUT and PASTE’ job ..it involved true implementation and global roll out of an ERP project which needed an understanding of business process , interaction with global clients and provide business solutions .
I can give many many cases of failure .
Sridhar ,
Well if you ask me .I spent 10 years of work experience before coming here and today I have an Interview scheduled to interview a Bangalore University
Graduate who has done is masters from a US university for a Business warehouse developer position .
to add on under cutting american wage . My company pays 45% more salary than any Indian Consuting company . if a Satyam/Wipro/Infosys pays 55K salary for a 5 year experience consultant ..you can calculate the rest .
The salary I mentioned is for any consulant coming from India and we do business in ERP .Most of the consultants in our company average 100K and that is a DREAM salary for a average american consultant . We also have a substantial representation( 50%+ ) of local work force .
To add to that recently its been tough going for us with consultants from Major Indian consulting companies coming at 50% lesser cost .
That is because of the rampant abuse of l1 and H1B from these employers . With these kinds of business practice it is hardly surprising that they show 30% growth year after year .
All I am saying is ‘ Dont cut the Chicken which lays Golden egg’ in pursuit of greed . Then everyone will be left with nothing but only ‘MANNU’.
Have some respect for consulting and Consultants . Do sell knowledge at DIRT CHEAP in turn you are ‘PIMPING’ our Mother India .
We need these Jobs for our future generations as well . Lets preserve for the future generations as well .
DONT SEND EVERY WARANGAL,KAKINAADA,KATPAADI to US in the name of COnSULTING . People cant even converse in English .
Send senior consultants , pay them well , Train them on proper ‘Etiquette’ .
Ask them not to converse Loudly in ‘TELUGU’ in elevators and hallways .
Maintain decorum and use common sense .
There is always a great difference between a consultant from E&Y or PWC with a SATYAM consultant and it is very Conspicous .
An Indian Consultant should be looked upon with respect not as a ‘COOLIE’ …dont sell them at DIRT CHEAP .
Its like buying a shirt from Walmart and a MACY’s . lets maintain the MACY’s thing even though both shirts are ‘MADE in INDIA’. Let them pay 40$ for the shirt instead of 10$ even though it is made in the same Garment Factory in ‘KAAMAKSHIPAALYA’ .
Dg:
Why did you pay $30 to an illegal immigrant?.
Why didyou try talking to a client to employ your relative when he/she was off thejob. Legally , he/She should have been back to HomeTown.
BP- how different is the BP that people else where cant implement. Dont tellmethat You go and implement at every customer site. If you can implement at a Detroit site sitting at LA office – Why cant the same be done from Bangalore /Mysore office.
Java/>net – youseem to have put down everything under the sun – Howmuch ofwork gets done without a framework?. Who designes the framework.
sorry to hold you up – it is Dinner time forme and it must be work time for you being in a Fortune company – so Time is precious for you. I am trying to give the other side of thecoin.
Well DG i understand your cencerns and i appreciate you suggestions. But, inorder to implement your suggestions we need to wait for another 10 years minimum. Now the biggest concern for india is emploment, for the youngsters we need jobs, whether it’s in India, america or andaman people are ready to go and sacrifice their personal life just to earn few bucks, It’s better to have indian’s working for low wages then sitting idle and joining some political group and burning busses and public property just for 100 rs a day. Let them all get some sort of employment, whether it’s cut paste job or some shit cleaning work.
Don’t encourage brain drain, Comman man in india are paying taxes inorder to provide funds for the IIT’s and Medical collages, what’s the use?these guys are running away from india and providing their services to a foreign nation, I think we need those people back in india to construct a better india, and all the scrap should be exported to foreign nations As L1’s or H1B’s.
The solution for most of the problems that bedevil Indians is population , addingt one Australia every year. Except a few, others with H1B are not ‘high tech’guys, and that is my experience with IT guys America the last 10 years at least. There is going to a backlash in Ameriica and I do see the H1B scam continuing much longer. As I am saying the H1B for Indians should go.
All that I say is
IF you pay PEANUTS….you get MONKEYS
I encourage youngsters getting Job .but please allow them to grind themselves in ‘GARADI MANE’ ..give them the experience back in India provide them professional outlook .
I dont want Indian companies to do ‘Masthri Job’ ..have core competancy
Dont get down to washing toilets or mowing lawns if someone pays 20$
There are 12 million illegal immigrants to do that . Maintain a sense of prefessionalism ..dont pick engineers right off college in ‘VIJAYAWADA’ and dont market them . Dont make them slog like 20 hours a day and sacrifice them for your greed . Slow down Cos.
What the heck does NRN talk about global competancy…competency my foot ? Send senior professionals to Onsite and allow younger prefssionals to gain experience …allow India to Shine for many more years to come .
let us recognize an ‘INDIAN’ as not just a ‘MOTEL OWNER’ or a guy at GAS STATION or another Cyber COOLIE . Make them top notch professional.
Naveen , Even when I worked in India for 10 years ..I advocated the same thing and I stand by it even now .
DG,
Dont you think gults and kats worked in MS, Google and many other product companies etc. on their actual product lines? And in NASA as ‘rocket scientists’. Agreed on the points you are making though – on the general cheap behaviour, lack of communication and social skills etc. of Indian ‘consultants’ from companies which leverage on low cost labour. This probably matters more in the consultancy business where networking, appearance and talk matter more than actual engineering skills. And anyway a first generation Indian immigrant isnt going to match the Americans in social skills (with respect to American culture) – she/he will only be superior to the Satyam variety of consultants. Wonder what some bigoted Americans say in private about the consultants from India who think they are upto the mark and fit in…
Neevu helthairodhu sarine, aadhare swalpa biasedaagidhe ansuthe.
Sridhar,
More and more IIT Btechs are actually opting to stay in India and work. The current lot of companies DG mentions Satyam, Wipro, Infy have people from the older generation at the helm. And none real technical mavericks. They did what they had to. It was (probably) the best they could given the situation at the time. Maybe it is a matter of another 10 to 15 years before Indian companies catch up… And if the government does it part too (free wireless broadband, better infrastructure, support for hardware fabrication, more research at universities etc.) – things will certainly improve. The disturbing thing is that a new crop of companies dont seem to be coming up, only more MNCs and the same old labour shops.
If H1B is scrapped would be interesting. But it wont happen for people who do their MS/PhD on an F1 for sure – some of them (gults et. al.) are needed by the US to be scientists, college professors etc.
My two cents…
They shouldnt scrap H1B..they can scrap L1 since it is most abused in terms of pay to consultants .
They should regulate and restrictions ..However offshoring has to continue
good for youngsters and good for country .
I am only referring to Big Indian Consulting companies and body shoppers .
DG indian companies like wipro and Infosys have dedicated training centers, they recruit freshers from college after a through examination and then they train then for min 6 months before taking them to any of the projects, for each project they have to attend a client interview, only when the client is happy they will be in the project. And nobody is allowed to travel abroad unless they complete min one year of service in india. Altogeter it’s min 2 years of experience is required for any guy to travel abroad.
I don’t understand why you are happy recruiting a fresher who did his MS in US, In what way he is superior than a guy from VIJAYAWADA engineering college ? What professional outlook did he get in two years of his master’s in US ? Infact he might have worked in a gas station or a restaurent, does it balance the two years experience what vijayawada guy got by joining in wipro/infosys during this time??
You are saying Low wages, low wages, that is the unique selling point of indians, otherwise why the hell do the americans or any other recruit foreigners ?
And do you know the kind of work these MNC’s are outsourcing to india?
To do that work you don’t need a masters, i feel you don’t need any degree or any experience is required, just few days training to a +2 student is enough. The clients never allow consultents to work in the core area, thay are limited to support activities. And do you want our countries brillent people to work in those areas ? Not at all, for the kind of work they want indians to do, the kind of people what these companies are sending is more than enough.
It’s just business buddy, in this competetive world every this is fair to win the race.
1. Americans are feeling insecured because their jobs are being outsourced to india.
2. People who did MS in US are feeling insecured becoz they are not getting jobs because of indian companies
3. Now people who are in US are feeling insecured becoz they are not getting good salaries becoz of indian companies.
4. And lots and lots of people in india are feeling bad that they are not getting an onsite chance :))
So my dear DG don’t worry be happy and save your job, who know wipro/infosys some day may send a competetior for your job also @ 55K per annum, just kidding.
FYI.
Two senators wrote to, among others, Infosys, TCS and Wipro and the episode kicked up a storm back home, where IT industry and even government officials reacted angrily.
Industry body Nasscom asked the senators not to confuse the H1-B visa with immigration, saying the programme was more to do with international trade.
The US lawmakers apparently feel that the H-1B visa programme is being abused by foreign companies to displace qualified American workers and details sought from the Indian companies is part of an exercise to identify any possible misuse of this temporary visa programme.
H-1B is a temporary visa programme that enables employers in the US to hire professional level foreign workers for a period of up to six years.
As per the US law, employers must pay H-1B workers either the same rate as other employees with similar skills or the ‘prevailing wage’ for that occupation and location, which ever is higher.
The CIS study highlights that despite the prevailing wage rate requirement, actual pay rates reported by the employers of H-1B workers were significantly lower than the American workers.
NASSCOM Reply:
Work permits and intra-company transfers from India to the U.S. are trade issues and should not be confused with immigration issues, India’s NASSCOM (National Association of Software and Service Companies) in Delhi said late Tuesday.
NASSCOM was reacting to letters written by U.S. Senators Chuck Grassley, an Iowa Republican, and Richard Durbin, an Illinois Democrat, to nine Indian companies asking for details on their use of the H-1B visas. The nine companies account for close to 20,000 visas, the senators said on their Web sites. The companies include India’s top outsourcers, Tata Consultancy Services, Infosys Technologies, and Wipro.
More and more, it appears that companies are using H-1B visas to displace qualified, U.S. workers, Grassley said in a statement Monday. “Now, as we move closer to debate on an immigration bill, I continue to hear how people want to increase the number of H-1B visas that are available to companies,” he said.
Work permits are primarily a tool to facilitate trade and allow global companies to bring key staff to the U.S. on temporary assignments, just as U.S. staff often travel across the world for temporary assignments, and this is clearly different from immigration, NASSCOM said.
Grassley and Durbin introduced legislation in April that they said aims to give priority to U.S. workers and crack down on unscrupulous employers who deprive qualified U.S. citizens of high-skill jobs.
The H-1B visa is an employer-sponsored, nonimmigrant work visa for a foreign worker coming temporarily to the U.S. in a specialty occupation.
The issue of H-1B and L-1 visas is important to India’s outsourcing industry as it has a large proportion of staff working on-site on client’s projects in the U.S. Indian outsourcing companies as well as U.S. technology companies, have been demanding an increase in the number of H-1B visas allowed in a year, which are currently capped at 65,000.
The Indian outsourcers Grassley and Durbin wrote to were not willing to comment on the letters.
NASSCOM on Tuesday repeated its demand for an increase in H-1B visas. Both U.S. and Indian companies have repeatedly stressed the need to raise the H-1B visa cap, which was reduced from 195,000 to 65,000 two years ago, it said. Constraining the supply when demand is high gives rise to problems for U.S. companies and Indian IT companies, the association added.
Mr.Dheerendra Gopal,
I am sorry to say this ..but one sentence your reply has really caught my eyes.
what is wrong if anyone is talking in his or her own mother tongue ? Is it crime ? and on what basis do you want to say that intelligence = “ability to speak good english” ?
If that was the case then you would be considering all companies in japan and in South Korea like Toyota and Samsung [Just to name a few] are run by not so intelligent people. Because no one there speaks english and every document is in their mother tongue and No one of them feel inferior because of that infact they feel proud of that. And mind you all those countries are much developed than India. Never do they feel that they have limited themselves by not being able to speak english. For that matter how many Europeans can speak ENglish?
have you ever noticed that very few people in the world speak english.
First learn to take pride in what you are.
And please It is not for anyone to decide who is smart and who is not EVEN if you have 10 years of industry experience here or abroad, it doesnt matter.
And why single out only telugu people ? arent there Tamilians speaking only Tamil in offices and in meetings also ? Have u seen North Indians ? what do they speak ?
Sridhar,
Actually what Nasscom has put up on their website doesnt make much sense and only seems to be skirting the actually issue bought up in the letter.
The letter was about the abuse of the H1b program by certain Indian companies. They filed and got H1b visas without complying to the necessary legal clauses (see the letter from the senators and also some immigration websites for the exact clauses). This has led to things like wage depression and job losses. The onus of filing for a H1b in an honest and legal manner lies with the companies. And if this was just about one-off cases it probably wouldnt have come to this. The Indian companies have been systematically engaging in this fraud. And they didnt stop even though there have been noises of warning from various groups in the US. They had L1 visas which they could use anyway. And now this letter. If the companies answer each of the point honestly – it will show how they operate and what their view is on ethics and following the law. And these are companies with legal departments and a board (which should consider legal and ethical issues before taking decisions). It is not like some individual who sidestepped some law to get a visa.
And Nasscom’s press release is about immigration? The letter written from the US congressmen doesnt talk of that at all. In fact the H1b visa allows for permanent residence and immigration. Once a person has gone to the US on a H1b she/he is free to seek a green card and citizenship. That is how many Indians have actually settled there.
It would be better if the companies (and nasscom) – answer each of the questions in the letter honestly. And anyway – most of the information can be dug out from various databases and will be verified. The bad part is that companies from other countries dont seem to have participated in the fraud (or sidestepping the law – whatever you call it), while the Indian companies seem to be doing it without any restraint. That is what would make an Indian feel bad. And lend credence to any other theory about Indian IT companies and employees.
And about infy, wipro etc. training their people in social skills etc. before sending them on jobs abroad. That doesnt seem to show when they come abroad. And neither is most of their technical skills up to the mark. There is only one defining characteristic – their cost. They come dirt cheap. And as DG says – it shows up too. Hope this improves over time (hasnt for the past few years).
Anu,
Gults make up the majority of the people who seem to have gone to the US on H1b. Especially the unskilled ones with fake MCA degrees. And time and again we hear of how they stay 10 people to a room, fake their resumes/degrees and talk loudly at the workplace in their mother-tongue etc. They are the ones who make the stereotype of cyber-coolie stick to all Indians. Of course for every faker like this from Andhra – there will be others who makes us proud. But we are only talking about this visible majority…
DG,
My reply to Anu is a flip flop :) – but I thought about it – and I see the point you were trying to make…
PS: My post is only about Indian IT companies only.
Anu ,
Dont mix issues . I never said talking in Mother toungue is ‘SIN’ .Infact its the holiest thing to do and also teach our kids .
How would you feel when two guys in a meeting explaining each other in ‘Telugu’ when 8 others are sitting dumb without understanding a word .How would you feel if people start howling and talking loudly over phone in a native language disturbing everyone .It is a Social sense thats it .
Consultants who land from India come in chappals and salwar kameez on their first day to jobs . I doubt if these companies
have something called ‘INDUCTION TRAINING’ and business etiquettes . We are supposed to be professionals representing a major Indian company and consulting is just not doing work its a whole thing about ‘Presentation’ , Work ethics and WORK.
There is always a different view for consultants who come from offshore and the consultants who come from the Big accounting firms in US .
DG, i don’t know why you are so against Telugu speaking people, This problem is there with each and every Indian, they would like to speak in their native language with the people who know their native language. Kannadigas, Tamilians or Northindian people are no exception. i agree with you, when you are in a meeting you should not discuss in anyother language except English. you should follow some basic manners and work ethics.
I also had similar problems in France and Korea, they speak in thier native language in the meetings not just in meetings everywhere they speak their mother toungue only, i know how painfull it is.
“Consultants who land from India come in chappals and salwar kameez on their first day to jobs ”
This is a blunt statement, you might have seen one boy/girl doing like this and blaming all the consultents coming from india, it’s very wrong. Did you ever dare to question fellow american, who wears a shorts and comes to office on bicycles, and stands besides you sweatting in the lift ? Did you ever question a fellow american who brings his lunch from nearby subway and eats at his desk ?? Why the hell caffeteria is there in the office ?? Did you ever question fellow indian who tries to imitate Amrican accent and sounds like a “Dhobhi ka Kutta naa Ghar ka naa ghat ka “.
all the people who worked for this product are telugu speaking guys and they discuss most of the time in telugu only, One example for the innovation of telugu speaking people.
http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/40537/vcc-new-revolution-in-phone-bus.html – Video
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/vcc-new-revolution-in-phone-bus/40537-7.html – Article
Sridhar,Anu:
Agree with you – the discussion on H1B visas seems only to be pointing to more deep-rooted insecurities in some of us, and surfacing others’ annoyance over issues like language, regionality and attire (projected on larger issues like work visas!). And since the discussion actually seems to be about more trivial issues like this – here i add my limited wisdom! :-)
One of our main sources of amusement back home are those very accents (deliberate or cultivated over a period of time) which jarr the ear, and those trademark ‘foreign- returned’ white-sneakered dudes who can be spotted from miles away! :-) – but which somehow seem to be more palatable and acceptable to our Indian brethren overseas, than gracefully turned out men and women in clothes that they are able to carry respectably!
The debate over capability vs. presentability – will continue till the sun sets in the east. From my experience, neither has my Indian accented English been a hindrance to the work i do in a multi-cultural environment, nor attire cast a doubt on our capabilities here. Cultural sensitivity training is not about learning how to ape the culture of your counterparts, but about ‘cross cultural collaboration’ and clients/ colleagues today are a lot more savvy to be able to appreciate that!
If H1B visas are being ‘misused’ as alleged – then let us not be in a hurry to sentence ourselves as criminals. It takes 2 hands to clap – and like someone mentioned earlier, the reason we face this phenomenon today is also largely due to American companies enjoying the benefits of the economics of the situation.
Finally, DG:
“let us recognize an ‘INDIAN’ as not just a ‘MOTEL OWNER’ or a guy at GAS STATION or another Cyber COOLIE . Make them top notch professional.”
— (whatever happened to ‘Dignity of Labour’ – the term that Americans taught the rest of the world!!!) But seriously – very noble intent! We can each begin by being more charitable in our view of our fellow strugglers in this cut-throat ‘professional’ world and take some responsibility in ‘uplifting’ them to the standards you mention!!
BTW: I found your repeated comments on the standard of english rather ironical considering the number of errors in the messages you post!!! people living in glass houses….
Smita,
I just happened to notice a heavily-Indian-accented lady leaving central Lal bagh! She was carrying a few rocks. :)
Was she calling out your name DB, in the heavily accented english???
(Sheesh! How did I miss you DB?! Those rocks were in case i spotted you in the greenhouses there scaring away unsuspecting birds… :-))
SMITHA….’CHINNALEEE’ ree neevu :-)
abba yenu bareetheera …yinnmelindha neevu ‘CHINALEE’ ( DB note this )
Companies are misusing L-1 and H-1B visas and exploiting genuine experienced people by under paying them besides committing visa related crime .
These guys are under paid 25-50% lower than average American with similar experience. In fact H-1B and L-1 guys get paid (in most cases ) lower than even fresh American employee just recruited from campus.
Hey Guys,
I am on the lottery for an H-1B visa, for a specialty skill but not IT. I am also in the lottery. I think it is unfair that Indians hog up all the visas and there are no more for people like me who graduate from college in the top five percent of their class and are offered jobs by great American companies and have lived in the U.S. for 20+ years. It was nice reading your posts. The problem with the H-1B is that American companies are not being able to hire foreign skill because those visas are hogged up by Indians? Why should the rest of U.S. talented people suffer because Indians have too many people in their country and horde all the visas? Do not tell me that the Indian guy does cannot be done by people from other countries.
I just want my H-1B. My U.S. company really wants me. I am not Indian and not in IT. But unless I get in the lottery I cannot get a visa. If they give quotas to countries, that should solve the problem. People from other countries can do what the Indian IT people do. Quotas for Indians on H-1B’s would make it fair for the rest of us that American companies want to hire.
As for Indians DP is right. Went out with an India guy once- no manners and cheap as hell. Way to impress a woman!
Indians are the most bigoted people in the world. Go to any public hospital and see how rude the doctors are, if you ever had to go to one and the Indian thought you were poor. Go to Jackson Heights and see how they dress- how cheap they are even though they are making good money-look at how they dress-they are just misers and they have absolutely no manners. And their arrogance once they come here and make a few dollars–Did they forget where they came from? Does an Indian company hire any foreigners. No. But be unfair to them and they will howl injustice. They just do not get along with people and they are mean. Look at the Indian students. It is impossible to be close friends with them. In my eyes their worst national characterisics is a tendency to falsehood and miserliness. Simply they are unlikeable people. Very rarely will you come across a decent Indian. Ask the Chinese, ask the Nepalese ask the Thai and ask the Bristish. They know what Indians are like.
The whole H1B visa program is loaded with abuse.
Goaded by Bill Gates, and some short-sighted immigrant advocates, the
l1, h1b VISAS are rampantly misused. let us take Bill gates’s argument.
Amercians are not taking to science and math. I heard that last year of the 20000 visas earmarked for advanced degree holders from US, only 14000 got filled.
Many of my Indian friends with MS and PH D are encouraged to join the Indian offices of American companies where most of theengineering hiring is happening. For engineering needs for US offices, these Amercian companies prefer a India trained 3 -5 year experienced person, not a MS, PH D gradutae from US
There are 300000 foreigners completing MS and PHD in US eveyr year. Only, 14000 visas meant for these people got filled. On the other hand, the bodyshops in India are overs-ubscribing to the 65000 visas by afactor of 3.
First of all, how can these companies file for H1Bs one year in advance. This is clearly because they outsource IT jobs for which they bring their respective staff on H1B to US whihc eventually displaces americans. This is the claim in the Senators’s letter.
I am yet to see an Indian from satyam or Wipro create a company in USA and employ thousands of people. Comparing every H1B applicant to Sergei Brin is a joke
But we can say all we want, but the lobby of Microsoft and Intel will prevail.
Incidentally, boht Microsoft and Intel have not added any value to their stockholders significantly in the last 5 years
RavBalky
lara.
This forum is by the indians and for the indians,i think you got the wrong link. just get the hell out of here. We don’t need your suggestions, if you don’t like indians that’s your problem, go and consult a doctor from ur origin and get well soon.
Sridhar,
I disagree with you. Lara, please feel free to post about your experience with Indians. Self-criticism doesn’t come naturally to Indians–we would rather extol our virtues than spend some time analyzing our defects:)
Lara,
Where are you from?
Keep posting :)
DB.
self criticism does not come natural to indians? there are folks dissing their parents, for crying out loud. they could have done worse, but no these moronic parents sacrificed their lives so that ingrates could go about questioning their morals. i mean, accident of fate/nature, if these folks were born a few hundred kms west, they would, in all probability be seeking 72 raisins. but hey call centers, BPO, H1B violations are the great violations.
doode lala is a lala whether from harvard or basesar,GJ.
TS
You are mistaken! Self-criticism among Indians for other Indians is a given–these are called secular types or more appropriately pseudo-seculars! I meant the real honest self-evaluating Indians, who would not mind taking an occasional joke or those who come with a superior chip on their shoulders, that sort–Lara is referring to.
Or let me elaborate–the kind of Indians who will go all cold if you are not from a good college (IIT, IIM, and so on); the snobbish variety who know all about wine tasting–without actually enjoying alcohol; the Indian variety who would be ill at ease with ‘foreigners’ trying to be aloof and needlessly superior; the Indian variety that try to see everything through the secular prism when they should be just looking out of the window(the ones you allude to correctly, the Arundhati Roys, Sardesai (the skunk-looking radio personality who is raging secular pontiff on the TV, today); and more!
I agree with DB. It is a pity that Indians are scared of evaluation of any kind.
The problem with India and Indians has been that there is only one show in the town-the IT show and there is only one education and training issue-the IT issue. The country which has rich heritage of science and literature and can boast some of the brilliant minds in these areas is caught up in the IT cul de sac. I have been an IT practitioner and academic for over 30 years, and strongly feel that the above status is not good for India and Indians.
Sacked NRI IT analyst vows to fight on in US
http://www.rediff.com/money/2007/may/24nri.htm
worst because of these greedy Indian Companies ..H1B fee just got increased to 3000$ or students like US . I watched the senate proceedings when senator after senator pointed finger at H1B abuse by Indian companies .
Sridhar
I followed the story–some how this NRI IT analyst and her story is not very convincing.
She probably just wants to gouge her company/colleague by threatening them of the lawsuit. The thing about all these stories is that these guys just dont want to leave the US – while they are not ready to assimilate…
Sorry about the Indian complaint. It is true. I have really had to deal with too many bad Indians-I am a nice person believe me. I had rude Indian doctors, I had an abusive landlord who was Indian and I had to move out because he did not give enough heat in the winter among many other things, crazy Indian professors who make life hard for you and they are not even good professors. I was nice to this Indian guy only to find he was a complete jerk-told me all his Indian friends cheat on their wives to my shock and that was the end of him, I do not know but why are Indians so rude and mean in general? I just do not have personally good experience with them. I guess the H-1B visa did it-when I found out that I did not get in a lottery after living here 23+ years from childhood, getting my education here, graduating at the top 5% of my class, and having a great American company hire me, I guess the anger just spills out.
There are just too many people in India and the abuse by them is making it hard for the rest of us to try to get the H-1B the honest way, because they are hording the visas and making life difficult for everyone else.
O.K.
I know India has a billion people. I have probably just encountered the worst of that population. But when you have a country of one billion living on top of each other-well they are going to be a difficult bunch-Same for the Chinese-go to Chinatown and you see the lack of manners and rudeness. Indians and Chinese should perhaps work of rudeness management.
Thanks people for letting me vent out my anger. You are probably nicer Indians than the sorry lot I have encountered.
Sorry I was tying fast- I meant the should work on rudeness and lack of manners management. For there are other counties not as developed even like India-but the people are not rude and mean.
Sorry typo- I meant work on rudeness management.
There are a lot of developing countries. But people are not as difficult as Indians in general with the exception of Jews perhaps.
And you guys should know that sometimes you just make people angry at you by your behavior. Take the Shilpa Shetty case. Yes there is racism in England. No doubt. But do not tell me that she was not irritating and brought the bad out of the others in that show. This is what I mean.
And one advice to Indians-stop moralizing so much and telling people what to do.
There are great things about India-no doubt-but that is in the books and literature. One forms ones judgments on the basis of the people one encounters in real life.
End of Immigration to US . Thanks to ‘Abusing’ and Greedy Indian Companies .
Farewell Old Friend: S. 1348 And The Demise of Employer-Sponsored Immigration
by Gary Endelman
If you were not looking, you may have missed it, the closing of one era and the start of something utterly novel. When Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada introduced The Secure Borders, Economic Opportunity and Immigration Reform Act of 2007, colloquially known to the cognoscenti as S. 1348, employer-sponsored immigration to the United States may have ended. For those who want to fix the date of death with some precision, it was May 15, 2007. What comes next? A rigidly prescribed points system based on objective factors that lend themselves to ready quantification, meaning in non-legalese, that you can add them up. While the details of comprehensive immigration reform are still being hammered out, and will doubtless be subject to a torrent of analysis by friend and foe alike, one thing stands out above the rest: the very notion of a points system for employment immigration requires the disappearance of employer sponsorship as an organizing principle. Those who miss the centrality of the points system as the sun around which all else revolves, who seek to restore their favorite visa, category or benefit without reference to its gravitational pull, cannot possibly hope to succeed. As in any historic transition, it will take time to learn the language of points, to put away the ideas and thoughts that drove the now outdated engine of employer sponsorship. Make no mistake about it, put them away we must if we are to survive and prosper in the brave new world whose promise and power we are about to experience in full measure.
Funny thing is that those who will benefit most from S. 1348 now condemn it most loudly, while those who will feel its true fury are only now beginning to wake up to the maelstrom that is about to engulf them. Pick up any major newspaper, watch your Sunday morning talk show, and you will hear the same refrain shouted from the rooftop: THIS BILL WILL DESTROY FAMILY IMMIGRATION! In fact, quite the opposite is true. While some categories are lost, S. 1348 is the biggest boon to family immigration to come down the pike in a long time. Truth be told, advocates of family migration should be lining up to sing its praises. By contrast, employers, and those who make the living by representing them, would do well to sound the alarm and rush to the legislative barricades. There has not been a more direct assault on the very notion of employer-sponsored migration in our lifetime.
Let’s look at the facts. S. 1348 would eliminate the ability of adult unmarried sons or daughters of US citizens and lawful permanent residents to immigrate here on the basis of family ties. Similarly, neither the married sons or daughters of US citizens, nor their siblings, will retain the claim to any special benefit by virtue of such a family relationship. S. 1348 also redefines immediate relatives to exclude the parents of US citizens and creates a new preference category for them with a miserly annual limit of only 40,000. There is a new temporary visa that enables them to visit the kids for up to 30 days, although some hope exists for a 180 day stay. Those who filed for family members after May 1, 2005 are shut out. Pretty grim, right? Well, maybe but, then again, not really. There will be 567,000 visas made available for family-based immigration each year until the entire family backlog is gone! You heard me right: in 8 years, there will be no more waiting lines for any family visa This is the wonder drug that family migration advocates have been praying for and, when they finally get it, they walk sightless among the miracle. No longer will families be separated. No longer will family immigration be a joke, waiting for Godot who never comes. People who have been in line for years without hope can celebrate the moment of their deliverance. S. 1348 does more for family based immigration that the current system, whose repeal is bemoaned with such gnashing of teeth, could ever do.
Yes, corrections have to be made and they will be. That is what amendments are for. Some are already here with more on the way. Senator Chris Dodd (D-CONN) sponsored an amendment to increase the green card cap for parents of American citizens up from 40 to 90,000. This will pass. Senator Robert Menendez ( D-NJ) has introduced an amendment to move the cut-off date for family sponsorship up to January 1, 2007, the same date that Z guest workers have to meet. This will pass. Senator Hillary Clinton (D-NY) wants to treat the spouses and children of lawful permanent residents the same as the immediate family of US citizens, free of quota restrictions. This will pass. If it does not, there is every reason to think that, by way of compromise, the number of visas here will go up, even though the 87,000 figure represents precisely the same level of migration as under the current law. If the Senate does not go with along with Senator Menendez’s proposal to allow family migration to benefit from a points system without having to amass 55 points under other criteria first, you can bet the ranch that the House of Representatives will, or insist that it be made part of any deal in conference. In sum, the primary beneficiaries of S. 1348 will be everyone in a family immigration waiting line who thought they would grow old and die while waiting for a current priority date
It is, rather, the employment immigration folks who should don black and curse the fates like Job. Look no further than what is about to hit our good buddy, the H1B temporary worker visa. No more can we substitute experience for education. No more can we dip into the 6,800 H-1B1 visas set aside for Chile and Singapore that are rarely used. No more can we confidently send our Indian and Chinese clients to US Consulate abroad secure in the knowledge that the presumption of immigrant intent will not be used by suspicious consular officials to turn them away emptyhanded. No more can we use the timely filing of an immigrant petition or labor certification before the end of their 5th year to extend H1B status past the normal six year limit. The so-called “training fee”, a penalty tax in all but name, will now soar, thanks to Senator Bernard Sanders, the Socialist Senator from the Peoples’ Republic of Vermont, from $1500 to $5000, not to mention the other $6,300 H1B “fees” that employers already have the privilege to pay. By the way, the Sanders fee does not exempt non-profits, universities, or small businesses.
As immigration guru Greg Siskind of Memphis accurately predicts in his running commentary on S. 1348, the best place to learn about the new law by the way, it is not hard to figure out what the Sanders Amendment will accomplish: ” All this will do is cause American employers to look to accelerate outsourcing plans and employ workers overseas where they are both available and won’t bankrupt the company. And non-profits and smaller companies will simply do without.”[1] Robert P. Hoffman, a vice president of Oracle, had it right when he characterized the Sanders Amendment, ostensibly designed to underwrite scholarships for American students of engineering, mathematics, computer science or health care, as “an onerous tax on America’s most innovative companies.”[2] Oh, did I forget to mention that S. 1348 will force all medical residents to study on a J-1 exchange visa, thereby requiring them to go home for two years before they can get the green card? No longer can such graduate medical education or training be accomplished on an H1B. [3] With all that, increasing the H1B cap to 115,000 for FY 2008 with a possible escalation in future years to 180,000 visas is cold comfort indeed. This is very much like taking the shirt off a man’s back and offering him cufflinks- he still has no clothes.
On the permanent side of the ledger, there is not much to cheer about. For the first 5 years after enactment, you have 247,000 visas but, out of this, 90,000 goes to eliminate the backlog, which is a tidy morsel, with another 10,000 set aside for “exceptional” Y guest workers, however that is to be defined, who seek to come here permanently from their home countries. For the next 3 or 4 years, until the undocumented now here can begin to adjust status, the level floats upward to 140, 000, the current level, with the same 90,000 set aside. Once the undocumented Z guest workers come on stream , the green card numbers rise to 380,000 with possible supplemental allocations if necessary. So, purely from a numbers perspective, legal immigration through employment does not experience a sustained variance once the factor of guest worker adjustments is taken out of the equation.
But, as our statistician friends are only to eager to tell you if they are honest, numbers are not the whole story. S. 1348 decapitates the entire employment preference system! Outstanding researchers, who cares? Extraordinary ability, forget about it! It gets only 8 points, or less than the 10 points awarded to someone holding a junior or community college diploma. Doing work in the national interest? We can do without it. Multinational managers? American business no longer needs them. Providing skilled workers for shortage occupations? Labor certification is as dead as the dodo bird. The talented musician, the genius computer systems designer, the innovative technology wizard who has weak English skills and no sheepskin, but does have the vision to create new industries that have not yet been born- is there a place under the points system for them? Right now, the answer is no: ” Consider this,” the Washington Post aptly noted this past Sunday, ” If Bill Gates-who dropped out of Harvard-were foreign born and subject to the new point system, would Microsoft be able to hire him to live and work in the United States?”.[4] Employers will have no way to bring in the best and the brightest to grow their companies, design new strategies or staff major projects. Add up the numbers and the merit-based point system spits out the winners. E. John Krumholtz, Director of Federal Affairs at Microsoft, may be forgiven for his less than charitable endorsement of S. 1348:” The deal is worse than the status quo and the status quo is a disaster.”[5]
What is striking throughout is the clear message that S. 1348 sends to US employers: WE DON’T TRUST YOU! For that reason, we will take away your ability to file immigrant petitions or labor certifications; audit you more closely and more often; make you verify employment eligibility in an electronic fashion; and make you pay through the nose for the one visa you really want- the H-1B. From the Congressional perspective, the problem with the H is not that it is too onerous for employers but, rather, that they like it too much! Otherwise, why was the H quota used up in one day six months in advance ? This means that something is rotten in Denmark. Maybe, employers like the H because they can pay less? Well, if that is the case, thinks the suspicious Senator, what we will do is to make sure that the H costs more by hiking up the fee.
Wait, there is more! The end of employer-sponsored immigration and the inauguration of the points system do not take place at the same time. No kidding, there are two different dates when the old is no good and the new becomes available. If you can contain your excitement and read the finer points of Section 502(d)(1) of S. 1348, you will discover that the point system does not take effect until the first day of the fiscal year following enactment, unless (and there always is one) this is less than 270 days. What then? Not to fear. In that case, the point system does not “go live” until the first day of the FOLLOWING fiscal year. Keep reading! The point system in clause (1) is made expressly subject to clause (2) which has few surprises in store. It is not for the uninitiated or the faint of heart. These tender souls should protect their blood pressure and keep on reading. Pursuant to Section 502(d)(2), only those employment-based immigrant petitions on Form I-140 filed before the introduction of S. 1348 on May 15th will remain valid and serve as the basis for an immigrant visa after enactment. So what, you say? Well, suppose that President Bush signs the bill on September 10th 2007. That is the date of enactment. Now, the points system waits until October 1, 2008, the first day of the second fiscal year following enactment. From September 10, 2007 until October 1, 2008, over one year, we will have no employment-based green cards! You heard me right friend, no employer sponsorship based on anything after May 15th 2007 and no points system. This is Pat Buchanan’s dream come true- an entire fiscal year without any green cards being issued on the basis of employment!
The problem is not with the points system itself. Indeed, such a scheme has much to recommend it. Most significantly, if the purpose of our employment immigration laws is to make the American economy more competitive in the global marketplace, and it is hard to imagine what other purpose it could possibly have, then the law should work the way the market works. It is simply beyond reason to have market forces operate in the real world but outlaw their presence within the cordon sanitaire of the Immigration and Nationality Act. It is precisely this pervasive disfunctionality that has created the predicate for a comprehensive attempt at social engineering, precisely what S. 1348 represents. Nationally-syndicated columnist Charles Krauthammer hit the proverbial nail on the head when he recently observed:
As the most attractive land for would-be immigrants, America has the equivalent of the first 100 picks in the NBA draft…Today, preference for legal immigration is given not to the best and the brightest waiting on long lists everywhere on Earth to get into America, but to family members of those already here. Given that America has the pick of the world’s energetic and entrepreneurial, this is a stunning competitive advantage, stunningly squandered.[6]
The problem is not the notion of a points system but, rather, the kind of points system that the architects of S. 1348 have given us. There need not be any inherent incomparability between a merit-based system and one that respects individuality, creativity and extraordinary achievement. They can live together and enrich each other. There is simply no reason why modifications to a points system cannot be made that allow for all of the benefits otherwise provided by the Securing Knowledge Innovation and Leadership (SKILL) bill previously introduced by Senator John Cornyn, Republican of the Great State of Texas. Extraordinary ability, outstanding research, advanced expertise in science, technology, engineering or mathematics- all this can be saved for the future if the legislative expression of such benefits can be harmonized with, and given expression by, the point system. There is no reason why, as Greg Siskind so cogently advocates, family values cannot be built into a points-based immigration framework, thus providing an alternative to outright repeal of existing family options:
Rather than scrapping the categories for adult children, why not add elements of a points system where family immigrants would be prioritized based on a merit system. In other words, a sister of a US citizen with a Ph.D. will beprioritized over one with no high school degree.[7]
It is entirely the case that those who unnecessarily burden S. 1368 do not realize the consequences of their actions. Their intent is good, it is their execution that so troubles us. Take Sen. Sanders for example. What does he really want? To kill the H1B? Maybe. His comments on the Senate floor this past Thursday night certainly lend themselves to such an interpretation. However, there is another way to look at it. Senator Sanders wants money for a scholarship program for American students. Well, Senator, you won’t get it through an exorbitant H1B that most employers will not want to or be able to pay. Not even Tony Soprano can get more out of a business than it makes. Those who decry the Sanders fee are going about it all wrong. Try a different tack. Rather than attacking Senator Sanders, convince him that he will NOT get the money he wants with a high fee, but WILL get it with a lower fee. I bet you that Senator Sanders will jump at the chance to change is own amendment. He is not on a suicide mission and simply does not realize that a $5000 fee is simply too high to yield much revenue for his pet project. Did Congress really intend to invalidate all labor certifications or I-140 petitions filed after May 15, 2007? Surely this is an act of omission, an occasion not of deliberate malfeasance but accidental inelegance. Either way, it can easily be fixed, either in conference or by a manager’s amendment in the Senate. Restore rationality by grandfathering all immigrant petitions or labor certifications filed before the points system kicks in.
There is going to be a new immigration law based on a points system. Representative Steny Hoyer of Maryland, Majority Leader of House Democrats, has already announced that the House of Representatives will take up immigration reform this coming July. The Senate will pass a bill and President Bush, anxious, indeed desperate for a domestic achievement, is sure to sign it s into law. The conservative bill that emerges from the Senate will be transformed and greatly liberalized by the House. The House will not accept a points system; Rep. Zoe Loefgren (D-CA), chair of the House Immigration Sub-Committee has already said that. In conference, Senator Kennedy will give the House almost all the goodies that it wants, but he will insist on retention of the points system, knowing he has pledged this to Kyl and realizing that on the honoring of this pledge depends Senate passage. So, in the end, the Conference will enshrine the more expansive goals of the House , but in the language of the Senate point system.
S. 1348 has taken all the flexibility out of the points system concept, making it more rigid and less useful than it has to be. Opponents deceive themselves at their own peril if they think Congress will scrap the points system or sunset it. That is why Sen. Obama’s proposal to insert a 5 year sunset provision is a non-starter. The only way that Congress can legalize the undocumented and sell a massive guest worker program to a skeptical public is to tear up the current permanent system, throw it away, and start with something totally new. That is why the points system is a political necessity to the legislators who must attach their name and their votes to this experiment. So, the issue is not whether we will wind up with a points system, but, rather, what kind of points system. By restoring its’ suppleness, the architects of the points system will not only defuse much of the opposition to it but, most importantly, enhance its value by preserving the best that the system of employer sponsorship has to offer. Yet, and here is where the business lobby must adjust its thinking, such preservation cannot take place in opposition to a points system but only as part of it.
Abraham Lincoln’s Second Annual Message to Congress on December 1, 1862, said it best: “The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country.”[8] Amen.
About The Author
Gary Endelman practices immigration law at BP America Inc. The opinions expressed in this column are purely personal and do not represent the views or beliefs of BP America Inc. in any way.
Thanks for the post DG,
I also happened to see NASSCOM response to senators and could not control laughing.
Nasscom must be feather bed for idiots. They argued that 20% of the visas went for US universities!!!
It is like if Doctor asks you what is your temperature you reply that your neighbor weighs 200 pounds…
Nasscom knows very well that US universities are exempt from quota and hence percentage figure is grossly misleading.. Nasscom is trying to test the waters by such vacuous reasoning.
dg:
here is the same article with the missing footnotes.
– s.b.
Lara,
Where are you from anyway? You arent an American – since you applied for the H1b. Since you have so much to say about Indians, Chinese and Jews; would you care to tell us what you are? Not to disrespect you or anything – am just dying of curiosity!
Thanks.
Lara,
I think you far too kind, after getting to know so many Indians (All Job Thiefs) what we use to call SCABS! I must say you are a 1000% correct.
But after working with so many of (Job thiefs Indians), I must correct one important fact, most of the (Job thiefs Indians), come from just one area of India called Gujarat, before they all came to the US as worlds number one (Job thiefs), they already stole everything from all the other sects in India, they are all hated with passion in India and many other countries around the world. It’s just a matter of time before it all catches up with them, i just hope it’s does not start world war.
Having said that, I think most of the blame lies with the (Christians and Jews) who hire all the (Job thiefs), SCUMS Like Bill Gates and his types.
Pingback: If Murthy can be why not muthry???
Sorry I did not mean to say bad things about anyone, it is just some people are more difficult than others. It is useless to target a particular group and when one generalizes, it is usually based on personal experience.
So the mud slinging has to stop for it is not constructive. It is not right to call people like Gates scums for he has done a lot more than you ever will. I guess the frustrations with Indians came out as I did not get the lottery and for someone who grew up here legally since the age of five (yes my situation is unusual) it was really a life and death situation. However, my company is really sympathetic and ready to do anything to help which is good news. I grew up here my whole life since the age of five; my parents worked for an international organization and I changed my visa when I finished high school after they left and had no interest in staying here. Then I finished college and applied for a job and was in the lottery. So I guess I was bewildered as I did not know much about immigration until the lottery and the H1-B abuse really upset me. Well it is no use complaining and it is better for me to look forward since I have vented out my anger and have calmed down by now.
Lara,
I am glad you have calmed down, but Million of unemployed Americans cannot calm down, as they have lost their jobs and have been replaced by an H-1B/L1 Visa holder who they had to train, all mostly from India.
As for Bill Gates and all his kind, they are ALL the wrost SCUMS of this earth, they love cheap labor and don’t care who they hurt. There GREED is beyound words, 50 Billion is still not enough. Lara you have your own agenda, in many ways same as the Indians. Taking an American Job!
SHAME ON all JOB THEIFS.
STOP JT
You are hallucinating dude! Are you mixing up your medication? Calm down my sick son of template variety. Easy now…apply for Bill Gate’s Foundation’s unassisted but all dues paid Lobotomy program–it will do you a world of good and remove the contents of a vessel you keep on top of your body called ‘Head’.
DB….all dues paid lobotomy…I have yet to decide whether this or your limericks are more funny :)
GK3S
Thank you. Once in a while STOP JT’s inspire the likes of us!
WOW! Doddi Buddi? Doddi Doddi? With a name like that, you sound like you are an Ugly Indian Shit to me, go take a shower, your smell is killing everything around you, even the plants. Speak ENGLISH! Not shit.
To all the likes of you, It’s Air India and back to Bombay right away.
How is that for Limerick gay boy Gokulam?
=))
Lara,
You didnt answer the question. You arent Amerian, Chinese, Indian or Jew (from your posts). What are you?
Our sympathies are with you.
AG, these dudes are all Indians who wash their you know whats you know where having some fun. That’s all.
All American, I am sorry for you buddy. Want to be my domestic partner so that you can get on my insurance for some intensive psychiatric therapy? :))
AA
If you don’t know the local idiom, stay out of it you sad turd.
I am what I am and what are you? BTW I am using English and you are replying to me in some local argot! If you don’t know the word, look it up–in a big book called dictionary. I know you are straight out of ‘One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest’ movie set when they were filming the asylum. Now get back in there and wait for your medication. The kindness of Lobotomy awaits you my fictitious friend.
Hey Doddi Doddi Doddi
Looks like your favorite word is “Lobotomy” You must have gotten pretty good where the sun don’t shine. I bet your real name is Anil perdeep.
Dear Friends,
While going through all the oipnions/suggestions on the H1-B and the related issues, it is a foregone conclusion that we can only opine. We are too small to be able to influence decisions either way. Like every Government, the US Senators and the decision makers are going to call the shots and ‘make’ things happen as per their plans. Let us wish each other well…!! :)
Stop job thiefs,
You dont like christians and jews? Get your Mullah ass back to Pakistan.
Al American,
I bet your real name is Muhammed.
Anonymous Guy,
I am not going to tell you where I am from because I have said too much personal things about myself already. But I said I grew up here since the age of five and was raised here legally (an unusual situation). My Company hired me because they said in their eyes I was basically from here, having lived here my whole life. Not to mention I graduated in the top 2 percent of my class at College. But I am not Indian, Pakistani, Jew, Muslim or Oriental in the Chinese sense. And although I say bad things about Indians I am also an admirer of Indian culture and history. Lets leave it at that.
Lara,
OK
Hey guys, it was nice chatting here. At least I was able to speak out frustrations with Indians. They are a very maddening people the more you know their ways. But there are some very good things about them which I guess redeems them.
Hey Anonymous Gay Boy:
Like I said before, you smell like hell, take a shower, I don’t give a crap where or which 9th world begger country you are from, you are still all Job theifs and all Theifs will GO TO HELL!
Just some free advise: You do smell like hell, in the US we all take a shower, brush our teeth and put on new cloths EVERYDAY! Get it!!!
Congratulation to the Indian Newspaper for this article:
I was wrong, I guess we can’t say all Indians are the same,
———————————————————————-
Worried about amnesty to illegal immigrants, guest workers and outsourcing? Wait till you know what happens in American Engineering Graduate Schools – Harish Baliga – Jun. 9, 2007
You have seen the true nature of American politicians. They were eager to provide amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants. It did not matter if these were thugs, felons, and terrorists. All that mattered was to make sure the cheap labor supply for the cash rich businesses is intact to push for American hard working people to the edge.
The rich Corporations feed these politicians. The fat political contributions decide the fate of common hardworking Americans. It is easy to brainwash American people with some distractive ads in the TV and win the election with the same money they received from these large corporations.
These politicians want to send millions of American jobs to India and China in the name of globalization and outsourcing. They could do nothing to force the Chinese to revalue their currency.
They want to import H1B intellectual slave labor to America to depress the salaries and remunerations of millions of hardworking Americans. They want to increase immigration to America so that American corporations can have permanent access to cheap labor forever.
But wait till you hear what happens in American Graduate Engineering Schools – especially in those funded by the state governments and the federal money. They regularly discriminate against the American citizens at the graduate level (MS and PhD).
They import graduate students in hundreds of thousands and pay them stipends to live and learn American technologies. These students never pay a penny for tuition. Many of them return to China to make Chinese military stronger.
What is really bothersome is the fact these engineering graduate schools regularly discriminate against American citizens in America. If an American engineering professional tries to improve his or her skills at the graduate level, they are asked to take Graduate Record Exam. This exam has quantitative and verbal sections. The mathematics is based on tenth grade standard or less. It has nothing to do about engineering or science.
They expect a score of 700 or above in quantitative section. They do not put any qualifying criteria on verbal score because if they do, the Chinese students will never be allowed in the school. Students in China do not know English very well.
If you are an American engineering professional above thirty, you will have difficulty in scoring above 700 in quantitative part of the GRE. It is because GRE exam measures your agility not depth of understanding. It is a simple filter for propagating age discrimination against American engineering professionals.
The Graduate Directors in the Engineering schools are powerful. They are the bosses. The foreign students try to please them all the time. They are afraid all the time of losing their assistantships (stipend) and free tuition. If they cannot register for nine credits (three courses) they are out of status and can be deported from United States.
While politicians talk a lot about globalization and equal opportunity for the rest of the world, the American engineering graduate studies regularly discriminate against the Americans in America.
Before bringing in foreign talents in America in the name of H1B, it is needed that American universities especially those funded by the States try to help and retrain American engineers, technologists and scientists. Instead what happens is a shame.
The professors in these schools, after receiving tenure stop performing research. If you look at their research publications, you will find that after receiving PhD and getting hired as a junior professor, they published quite few research articles. But after receiving tenure (permanent status) they essentially start using these foreign students as intellectual slaves to get ‘research’ done.
That is the reason they do not want American engineering professionals in their corridor. If you know too much, if you are matured and do not depend on their stipend, you will question their worthlessness and laziness.
They have created a ‘Great Wall of China’ against American matured engineering professionals to enjoy their kingdom. In the mean time American businesses pay the tax money to feed these schools.
Guess who works hard for these American businesses that pay the tax to the state and the Federal Government? They are the discriminated hardworking American engineering professionals.
Al American Ali,
I bet you smell like roses to your boyfriend in bed.
A hyperlink will do you sack of shit. No one cares about your stupid story anyway.
If you dont get a job maybe you can beg or steal. Or go back to Islamistan and die with your vermin brothers.
There are a lot of inaccurate info in the above article.
It is very poorly written for a newspaper article. You should not submit such things as at least people are submitting good articles here.
First of all, I know that in subjects like Physics, and I am sure a lot of other theoretical disciplines, the Universities want the best minds- they do not care where those people are from. This is the correct attitude to have and this is one of the things that makes this country great.
Actually, most American scientists prefer that the government make sure it attracts the brightest minds to America.
A lot of Chinese scientists go to China because the government pays them extra if they have an American degree and return to China- a very smart thing to do for China.
Foreign scientists are respected here, because it is competitive and you have to be really good to get a job in academia or research.
You cannot compare the H1-B situation to graduate school admissions here. The best Universities want the best minds- does’nt matter where they come from. The H1-B situation is different.
And the general GRE’s do not count for much-that is why they have the subject GRE in the sciences.
Indians and Chinese can be really, really smart as well. So I do not see how American grad schools lose out by having such students as the article claims.
The H1-B abuse annoyed the hell out of me and I cursed Indians for a while, but it looks like it will be corrected somehow so they do not have a lottery next year.
Lara,
Looks like things worked out on the job for you after all. Yeah you will get the H1-b next year for sure. Doesnt mean you have to stop cursing and saying interesting stuff about Indians. We look forward to it :) And maybe you should give some tips to brother Al Ame. on how to get a job and hold on to it. Though I wonder if they got good jobs for abusive losers like him anywhere.
Yes I have some good options. I am now applying through non-profit again this year. So I will not be under a cap. But I learned a lot about immigration from all this.
The other option is to go to grad school, but I want work experience now.
For some reason, the Indian outsourcers think it is their right to usurp the entire allocation of H-1b visas each year, and if they are all used up, then Congress should increase the numbers. What would happen if Americans were given unlimited access to jobs in India — would the Indian people stand for it? Would the Indian Congress pass unlimited increases in visas? Why do you expect the American Congress to hand over all jobs in America?
Angry American,
It is very easy to get a visa to work in India. There are several Americans (and Japanese, Koreans, Germans, French etc.) who work in Bangalore. Did you think all the companies in Bangalore and other places would let the locals run *everything*? Here is a useful link from someone who has been there/done it: http://codecraft.info/index.php/archives/63/
Here’s a quote from the FAQ:
“Long-term Indian Business Visas are easy to obtain for US citizens.”
There is no limit to these visas. And you are welcome to come and stay indefinitely. There is a small rule about registering with the police station once in a while – but even that is optional in reality.
Check the same author again for more details (BTW people like him are what makes us ‘non-Americans’ admire and respect the people of the US – people like you make us re-evaluate these thoughts). http://codecraft.info/index.php/archives/category/outsourcing-india/
I personally know a few German, American and Korean people who work in Bangalore. However whether you want to go to Bangalore (or anywhere else) due to quality of life etc. is your personal choice. But we arent bigoted people discussing that are we? We are discussing about visas.
I guess,there is no one way doors as you would like others to believe with your BS rhetorical questions.
Just for fun – lets answer them anyway:
– What would happen if Americans were given unlimited access to jobs in India — would the Indian people stand for it?
As of now – there is no limit on long-term business visas given to Americans. And anyway the H1-b is not an ‘unlimited access’ to jobs. At best, it is an struggle (with no real security) for the hard working employee who holds that visa.
– Would the Indian Congress pass unlimited increases in visas?
See above answer. Non sequitur.
– Why do you expect the American Congress to hand over all jobs in America?
Who is ‘you’ here. The Indian people? No one is handing over anyone anything with the H1-b visa. Its just business and the H1-b visa holders sweat and efforts are just being exploited by various sources – US and Indian businesses and the US industry. Of course H1-b holders with fake experience etc. just show how that the visa was not well thought or implemented.
My angry friend – The H1-b visa is nothing, you can stop it if you want (and dont want a few thousand Indians and other foreigners coming to the US – workers who contribute to the US industry and pay US taxes and social security), but you have no power to stop the way global business or outsourcing/offshoring works.
BTW I have also been following the malpractices which some Indian outsourcers have been indulging in with the H1-b visa, and dont like it. Or the exploitation of the low labour costs they indulge in. However it is a trivial one and can easily corrected with time.
So stop the crap about the American Congress, Indian Congress (which BTW is called the parliament, you frog in the well), The American people, the Indian people etc. Just think about why you got the pink slip and look for a job which matches your skills.
In the early 90’s H1-B never reached the cap because the outsourcing companies did not exist at that time. The best and brightest came to America and no one had any objection. But for the last 10 years, the outsourcing companies are eating up the visas as soon as it is available. Certainly they are not using it to bring the best and the brightest. They bring cheap labor. I have no problem them wanting to make a few buck. But that was not the original intend of the h1-b law. It was never intended to bring cheap labor. Now both proponents and opponents of h1-b know it. Basically the outsourcing companies have killed the golden goose. If you think this is against free trade, you are wrong. Free trade never meant free labor trade across the border.
‘X’ Guy
A great post!
Yeah James,
So attract the brightest and the best. And please plug all loopholes which allow India based companies from indulging in labour arbitrage. It is good for India and it is good for the US.
(Personal opinion) – majority of the best and the brightest from India used to go to the US earlier. Now some are opting to stay back or even come back. Hope that number increases. Then the problem will be solved from both sides. All you have to do is stop the H1b visa for India itself since it attracts only the mediocre and worse…
Services of H1 holders are used by mostly big corporations in areas including financial, retail, pharmaceuticals, health care and food industry. Number of companies using H1 visa in technology sector very limited. These companies pay huge sums to preferred vendors ($100-$150 per hour) for a consultant with 3- years of experience. Preferred vendor refer a H1 holder from a body shopper as he is cheaper than American. Preferred vendor does not have any legal problem including immigration related issues when hires H1 holder. H1 holder is paid same money 45-50 K without benefits. This drives up the cost of the software development all across the country. The body shoppers are CALLED HIGH TECH COMPANIES.
I was offered a job by a big bank with almost double salary and benefits. I could not accept it and working for a body shopper who is a cheat and abusive. I have lots of proof against him but I can not take any action against him as all laws are in favor of employers.
It seems that IT WORLD is ruled by big corporations. These companies decide fate of global IT work force (including Americans). We DO NOT have much choice. Either quit software profession (may be 20 years of your learning) or GET EXPLOITED……
I DO NOT GET SALARY SLIP, MY EMPLOYER RUN THE PAY AND NEVER SEND ME PAY CHECK N THE PAST, HE BROKE ALL HIS PROMISES. HE DOES NOT SEND MY H1 and H4 PAPERS. HE FILED LABOR BUT NEVER SEND AND OFFICIAL CONFIRMATION. HE NEVER TOLD ME IN WHAT CATEGORY HE FILED MY LABOR…. LAW EXISTS FOR H1 HOLDERS ONLY
Greatly abused,
Yakkappa beku intha kithhogiruva jeevana? Ninage mane mata yenu illva?
Who is the culprit? No Indian MNC!
In a nation where Govt jobs were the most preferred choice, Indian IT
companies such as TCS, Infosys and Wipro unfolded the imagination of Global
work life and workplaces to young engineering minds.
Intensions was to earn with respect – help Nations such as US achieve things
tapping Indian Talent.
Initially it was possible to get projects do things what they wanted from
India and use a few resources onsite so that to know exactly the requirement
of the clients are. Then deploy it and test it in the real scenario and take
stock of any new enhancements to make the clients life easier.
Here use of Indian talent was required which at those times was not possible
by using US citizens itself.
But as Indian engineers especially those who took to IT had their economical
status improve. And when the people on H1B who intended to work only a few
years onsite help US clients and then settle in India – The real estate goons
woke from sleep.
Because of Realestate hike the life of normal Indians had been made miserable.
Engineers who wished to work in IT services companies on a pure offshore model
of outsourcing started job hoping to meet ends.
People who were at onsite feared that this inflation in India would not let
them to settle in India comfortably once their assignments were over. They
started demanding for onsite chances in other countries once H1B tenure can no
more be extended and when they cannot attain Green Cards.
Indian MNCs usually took people with good skills that are not available in US
to fix things rapidly at US. But the pressure from India by the local Indian
IT worker to meet his ends forces the employer to give good opportunities or
to file for H1 or L1 and train him in some good rare skill to make him work
onsite.
Unwarranted comments.
———————
All employers and Indian MNCs to try to retain employees for long time having
trained them and made them competetive at offshore. Retaining is not to be
complained. By competition every company tries to woo the weak links and pull
a few trained staff of the other company paying a slightly higher pay.
But when employees demand onsite for more sal then they need to be worth their
ask. They have to be really good to survive overseas and be good to showcase
their nation’s IT talent. Indian MNCs do the ground work here.
Ex. Indian MNCs hired Java guys trained well in Struts and open systems
extensively to onsite oppurtunities when there was more demand for such work
force in US or elsewhere. But now they have people with same talent in US.
Now with another framework catching up say Spring or Hibernate you find it
easier to go for identifying resources in India quickly push them to onsite
work there.
Its not the fault of Indian MNCs US has less no of people to train their own
American IT aspirants. Hence the work force has to be pulled in from foreign
countries, being an Indian MNC they pull from India.
Today companies inorder to make their employees feel a sense of belonging and
to make them compete with Americans and to make them feel more worthier so
that they can be showcased to be taken to US or any other country, push
resources to cross domain training or to rare skill nurturing.
Ex. TCS was once blamed for pushing Mainframe candidates to Webmethods or Java
resources into .Net Lead positions and Oracle DBAs into Datawarehousing.
They were right in doing so. Reason–> mainframe professionals became easily
available in US than webmethods professionals so to give mainframe guy a boost
make him learn what sells best then and satisfy your client needs too all at
the same time. End of day they guy also has multiple skills and a few more
dollars – this adaptability is not so easy by US citizens.
A Java developer found it much easier to lead even .Net project because
architecturally he still spoke the same language as a .Net lead would do. He
has cross technology skills now.
Oracle DBA has his apetite to learn new things learns OLAP and Datawarehousing
which is an added advantage which an US citizen would not have.
Who asked the US people not to learn new things fast and apply for Indian MNCs
posts in US? They stick to one skill and still dont feel satisfied for the pay
and Indian would be. But the Indian is by no means a coolie.
In 2 years a graduate learns to do professional work on a technology that is
in demand in US and he moves there.
Note not all Java Professionals with same experience by number of years in TCS
or Infosys or Wipro are alike they would have worked on different domain
skills, different operating systems, different architectures and different
Application Servers. It is true for other technologies too.
No Indian MNC wants to cheat by not hiring American in place of Indian. The
Indian gives them options to work with and flexible with experience having
worked on cross domain already in India that trust translates to employing him
ahead of the American.
IBM or Microsoft will want to sell a product every year to Indian MNCs or to
institutions in India, just changing version number and things that do the
same functionality. Why dont they try customising for India in a better way
and doing thing just right for Indians. Microsoft Maps cannot be used in India
effectively. Its not our problem its their own.
How good is Accenture in making a software that automates Saravana Stores
operations in TNagar Chennai? Are they going to bring in people from US to do
it? Or use a Indian to do it?
Indians do it better! being local. But how do Indians are able to do it in US
for BestBuy, Target or Circuit City? Thats talent.
This talent when extensively tapped and used by Indian MNCs to make both
Indian and US economy work. we start blaming!!
US clients who wished to have it done spending less on IT by choosing Indian
IT companies have been top performers on the NYSE then why complain ruining
their ecomnomy?
In India through H1B or L1 they have improved the lifestlye of most IT workers
and many other industries such as real estate and infrastructure have improved
and provided many job opportunities. Then why do Indians complain.
Only when IT workers become complacent and just want to work for 8 hours a
day, not learn anything new while they are on support projects and just time
pass by so called ‘managing’ or leading do ruin economies, corporate culture,
image of IT companies when they are spotted and highlighted as a bad example
of how the employees of Indian MNCs are, that the image of the Indian MNCs
tarnished.
The idea of challenging career and onsite life should be redefined in the mind
of the Indian IT aspirant to change the perspective from quick and dirty money
. The in 2 years engineer, in 4 years Analyst, in 6 years Manager, in 10 years
delivery head, in 15 years account Manager, in 20years Director mentality of
the Indian IT aspirant is the real culprit. They simply black mail
organisations to ask for more pay, position and overseas oppurtunities. And
once a few succeed they open the flood gates for chaos. They are the
culprits.
People like DG remind me of Indain Professionals in US who have gained expertise in impressing their American bosses by managing projects where Indian vendors are working as partners. These Pseudo-Americans are boot lickers of their American bosses and try immitating the American accent and take pride in saying rubbish about their own country people, just because they have been around for a while and know little better how to use drive-ins. They live in a dream world of self-glorification and do nothing good to either America nor India. The Indian companies are at least cutting costs for American companies and hence making them more competitive, else slowly they’ll shut down – what to talk of $100K wages etc ..
It seems people like DG have little or no understanding of capitalism and open markets – the very essence of country they live in – the wages etc are driven by supply and demand in open economy – If Indian company pays $40K/yr – that’s supply and will drive the prevailing wages – there is no concept like – “ideal wage” .. and in open economy, America fights the world for access to markets freely – same applies to job market – if Indian companies can do the job better in less cost – should America become erstwhile Soviet Union and regulate job market by state imposed policies ? If they do so, by what face will they contest the world to open up markets for American goods. And if huge markets like India and China are shut for Americans, how will jobs survive in US – DG will be first one to wrap himself up in Indian flag and take first flight back home. It’s because of people like DG that India does not make enough progress – we love to disown our country and people after making some money and learning that mid-way American accent.
Everydaywe can read about big projects, being handled by IBMs and like, failing in US, and are turned around beautifully by Indian companies like Infosys after taking them over. Indian companies have proved themselves better in all sort of management – cost management is one aspect of that.
Hat’s off the companies like Infosys, who have brought India to the forefront of IT Industry and earned the place in world economy the hard way. Every Indian should be proud of them and right-minded Americans acknowledge the huge positive impact these companies have on US economy – it’s a win-win situation.
Look out, Look out, here come more Job Thiefs!
US Embassy tightens security to curb visa fraud
CHANDIGARH: Concerned at the large number of people giving false information to obtain visas for the United States, its embassy in India has decided on tough steps to check visa fraud, including taking “fingerprints of all 10 digits.”
“The US Mission is alarmed by the rush of clearly unqualified visa applicants in recent weeks. A significant number of applicants are relying on incorrect information and are using false documents to support their applications,” US Consul General Peter Kaestner told reporters at the Press Club on Wednesday.
He said it had decided on touch steps to curb visa fraud and while biometric samples and electronic images of a person’s face were already being taken besides two fingerprints, “fingerprints of all 10 digits will now be taken to make it impossible for anybody to cheat to get a visa.”
Replying to a question on the recent case of alleged involvement of some MPs in human trafficking, Kaestner said they had strict procedures in place to detect such fraud.
“Only a few months back, we had this gentleman who pretended to be from the Congress party and gave us false documents to obtain a visa but he was caught,” he said. From October 2005 to September 2006, 4.6 lakh visa applications had been processed while between October 2006 and September 2007, they were expecting the figure to jump to 7 lakh.
Kaestner said in March they had brought down the waiting period of getting visas from 6 months to 6 days but with rush of unqualified visa seekers, the waiting time was now around a month.
The refusal rate had gone up to 30 per cent from 20 per cent because of fraudulent information and documents given by people, he said.
He said there were individuals and companies taking advantage of citizens by suggesting they could provide a short cut to an American visa.
“They are deceiving innocent people into wasting their money and making it harder for legitimate travelers to obtain visa appointments,” Kaestner said.
On some Indian firms being asked to disclose workforce details by two US lawmakers who felt H-IB visas were being abused to displace qualified American workers, he said information was being gathered and the US senate preparing a comprehensive immigration reform legislation.
To a question, he said 30,000 Green Cards were given to Indians last year even as “no limit” had been put on student visas.
“Last year, we issued 26,000 student visas to Indians, showing an increase of 30 per cent in the number of visas issued in 2005. We are also in the process of negotiating with the Indian government our partnership to double the Fulbright scholarships,” he said.
All American, this has been reported a while ago. It might be better to just post a link here instead of pasting the entire article both to save space and to acknowledge the source of the information.
Faldo:
NO NO I disagree, It’s still the Truth, and the Truth never gets old, the truth needs to be heard every single day, the Truth shall set you free.
Truth is not so simple .. it’s much more complicated.
Who doesn’t know that America pumps in 100’s of millions of dollars into countries like Pakistan to keep arms race in the region alive (so that 1000’s of jobs at Lockheed Martin , Boeing etc can be kept alive …)- the very reason why say a country like India has to spend billions of dollars on buying arms while the same money could be used to improve quality of life and hence provide opportunities for it’s youth within the country. Who’s to blame if Indians are forced to line up for American visa in order to hunt for greener pastures. America can’t have it both ways – this is the truth , if you want to address the real issue – go and fight for the real cause. Understand the truth and then the truth shall set you free !!
Again you got it all wrong, which means you must also be a job Theif, and all Theifs just their crime by some issue or reason. It’s still STEALING, nomatter how you look at it.
I don’t care what country does it, it’s still stealing. I know one thing for sure, INDIA is the Number 1 Job theif in the world, for which I am sure you are proud. But coming a close second is Pakistan, Isreal, Phillphines, Russia and so on.
Not only these country do wrong by hurting their own people by using them as Slaves, but they also do very wrong from all people they steal from.
CASE IN POINT: Tata Consultancy Services TAX FRAUD and TAX SCAM.
Its is indeed shocking that one of the top IT companies in the world Tata Consultancy Services (based in India) is also one of the biggest tax frauds in US history. Its time for this story to be told.
As someone who has experienced this first hand the following description is based on experience.
TCS has over 9000 employees working on H1B and L1 visas working onsite with US clients- GE,Cendant,HP,Apple,BestBuy,American Honda,Johnson& Johnson to name a few.
These employeess- most of whom dream to come to the US, are made to sign a Contract (Bond) that prohibits them from leaving their jobs while onsite for a period of 6 months after they have returned back from their overseas assigments.They are paid an “allowance” that is a pittance compared to what equivalent experienced engineers are paid by other IT companies.TCS tries to sqeeze their employees so that they can make the lowest quotations to provide IT services to US companies.
The unsuspecting employees are paid a fixed allowance every month and are told that the company pays all taxes to the US govt.(Federal, State, SDI,Social Security & medicare) and that the employee need not worry about what comes out of their gross salary becoz they are only entitled to after tax pay which they call ‘allowance’.
In order to manipulate the payment of all US taxes the company claims a number of exemptions without any authorization from the employee. This helps them reduce the gross salary and hence pay less of the company portion of Social Security & medicare tax as well underpay Federal and State taxes.
At the end of year they coerce their employees into signing a power of attorney for filing of taxes and do not even send W-2’s to any of their employees.
Since the employees are new to US tax law,most of them willingly give away the power of attorney and along with it the company pockets any refund that might be due to the employee from IRS.
If the employee request for a W-2 so that they can file their own taxes (if they happen to be married and would like to file jointly with them) TCS prepares a dummy tax return for their employee (as if they are married- filing seperately) to figure out what refund the employee would receive- and demand that the employee send the refund amount before they send the W2.
They refuse to send the W2 until they receive the check for the refund- even if the employee may not be receiving any refund or may even be paying additional taxes to the IRS.
This is how the company pockets on an average $2000 in refund for each employee which equals 2000×9000 =$1,800,0000 (US 1.8million dollars) in refund out of their employees annual pay.This is in addition to the tax manipultation they do with the gross salaries as described before.
This is how the compnay creates an unfair advantage for itself inorder to compete with other IT companies by evading tax and squeezing money out of their own employees.It is time the authorities investigate this matter to stop this unfair tax and labor practice.
Well, I will not deny or confirm what you have posted – may be a TCS person is better qualified to do that. But I wonder as to why people are not filing law-suites left and right against TCS when we see law-suites against dog bites in US :) ..
I can share my experience though – have been with a leading Indian IT form for last 7+ years, have been in US 6 times in last 5 years for a period of 4-8 months each and have got paid as per contract (65-80K per annum) and have filed all the taxes as per US law – including social security tax. Never had issue like having to sign a bond or return a refund etc .. all the crap that you have mentioned.
I feel proud to have been part of project teams from my company where we have taken over ERP Implementation projects from big-5’s (Accenture and IBM) and turned them around – completing on time, successfully and winning huge accolades from the clients (fortune 100 companies) – as I said win-win situation.
I must say in all my projects – I had wonderful professional experience with US people – not so good though with Pseudo Indian (“Desi” as they are called) sub-contractors around – their mid-way American accent and self-proclaimed greatness, and eagerness to speak against their own country – awful !!
Let’s celebrate this day with another feather in the cap of a leading Indian IT company – let’s join hands and strengthen Indian IT and partner with US clients to a brighter future for all.
————————————————————————
Infosys Named a Leader in Global IT Infrastructure Outsourcing
Bangalore, India, June 28, 2007: Infosys Technologies Limited (NASDAQ: INFY), a world leader in consulting and information technology services, has been recognized as among the leaders in global information technology infrastructure outsourcing by a report issued by independent analyst firm Forrester Research.
“Infosys’ strategy based on enabling customers to transform and optimize their infrastructure, combined with a broad global footprint ensures that clients receive a comprehensive suite of flexible and predictable services and high service quality,” said Priti Rao, senior vice president and head of Infrastructure Management Services (IMS), Infosys. “We’re delighted to be named a leader in the Forrester report and that our clients have given us perfect reference scores. This is a reflection of the strength of our benchmarked IT infrastructure outsourcing approach driven by our focus on IT service management”
The Forrester report, entitled The Forrester Wave: Global IT Infrastructure Outsourcing, Q2 2007 (June 2007), points to Infosys’ position as a leader in the industry, stating: “Perfect reference client scores and a solid strategy for future infrastructure business helped land India-based Infosys in the Leaders band.”
Infosys was also identified as being “among the strongest offshore providers in applications outsourcing” in The Forrester Wave™: North American Applications Outsourcing, Q1 2007 (March 2007). According to that report, the company “has a strong capability across virtually every aspect of AO.”
“Our recent recognition by Forrester as a leader in IT Infrastructure Outsourcing and North American Applications Outsourcing is a reflection of our commitment to providing clients comprehensive IT outsourcing solutions,” said S.D. Shibulal, chief operating officer, Infosys.
For more information and an executive summary of Infosys’ standing on The Forrester Wave: Global IT Infrastructure Outsourcing, Q2 2007 report, visit http://www.forrester.com/Research/Document/0,7211,42484,00.html
————————————————————————————–
Vivek .You dont know me nor you have heard me so dont speak about my accent . I possess none which is fake .
going by your above profile I am in BI platform of ERP(SAP) implementation for more than 9 years and a total 14 years . Spent 7 years in India itself before coming here .
Regarding TCS and Contracts yes there were lawsuits filed in Northern district of California and ruled against TCS .The Lawsuits were filed by Gopi Vedachalam and Kangana Beri .
Case 3:06-cv-00963-VRW Filed before Judge Vaughn R Walker , United States District Chief Judge .
If anyone is intrested in this entire court order please email me at myname@yahoo
Regarding Unfair practices we had a requirement for a Report writing expert a fort night ago , A Mumbai/Pune based consulting company brought in a BI report writer who finished graduation in 2006 gave her two months training . She is paid 35K on an l1 Visa and back home she gets 18K .She is my collegue and works hard and I happy for her that she has found a break early in her career . I am sad for her that she has to stay in a single bed room ( not so good) , share room with 4 others and cook everyday since she cant save much .
Patni Computer System Says Underpaying Foreign Workers In U.S. An Accounting Error
June 9, 2007 11:56 a.m. EST
Geoffrey Ramos – AHN News Writer
Boston, MA (AHN) – Patni Computer Systems Inc. has agreed to pay $2.4 million in back wages as part of a settlement with government authorities who claim the company underpaid employees recruited under the H-1B employment visa. The employees were brought to the United States where they worked for Patni in 32 states.
India-based Patni will pay the additional compensation to some 607 foreign workers it recruited between January 2004 and December 2005 under the H-1B visa. If the settlement was divided equally, each worker would receive $40,000.
The U.S. Department of Labor earlier began an investigation to look into allegations that Patni failed to pay foreign recruits wages that were similar to prevailing salaries in the United States.
Patni admitted the claim, saying that an accounting error led to the mistake.
The settlement is so far the biggest wage settlement related to H-1B recruitment in the country, Labor officials said.
Patni is one of the nine IT companies that U.S. legislators last month asked to explain their use of the H-1B visa. It is an employment-based visa category that is used to allow companies to recruit technology workers into the United States if they can’t find U.S. workers to fill the jobs.
The issue with wages is that under the H-1B work visas, companies are supposed to pay the workers it brings into the country the prevailing U.S. wages for those jobs so that foreign labor doesn’t unfairly compete with American labor for jobs.
The company, which has about 13,000 employees, was awarded 1,391 H-1B visas in 2006.
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7007596400
Above Original link .
This appeared in New York Times as well last when the CIR Failed in the house of senate .
Friends, if you want to refer to any article, it might be better to just attach the link here instead of pasting the entire article both to save space and to acknowledge the source of the information. This can also help us in reading and understanding your viewpoints better.
Shame Shame and more Shame!
Once the Stereotype takes hold, it always sticks.
There is nothing worst then a THEIF who after getting caught, then trys to SPIN his crime to justify everything, and some go even deeper by being proud of their crime. Hint Hint!!!
STEALING anything is still STEALING! Nomatter how you justify it.
Fake Visa agents eating into H1B quota
http://in.news.yahoo.com/070628/211/6hhrp.html
Visa ‘misuse’ may hit outsourcing
http://in.news.yahoo.com/070629/211/6hj41.html
Looks like an International THUG is crying aloud … can’t do good to his employer and doesn’t want to let him hire someone who can do the needful !!
What a shame …. no wonder you must have been fired and if not, you should be very soon, even if the job remains vacant.
You should move to a communist country like China .. don’t deserve to be in an open economy. Simply awful !!
DG, appreciate your concern about the Indian colleague of yours – but you have not got the context right.
When we go to US on first assignment, it’s tough adjusting to a new culture and every small thing becomes a challenge – without a DL, car and credit card – you know how tough it is. Staying in a group becomes a good option as peple can help each other – and we Indians are very helpful and adjusting – so may be you are more worried about your colleague, while it must be working out good for her.
After she returns to Pune, she would hire a full time maid while you would still be doing your carpet yourself – not so good !
It’s amazing how Indian professionals manage all the odds of being in a new place, with so much work pressure from day one … hat’s off to all of us working in Indian IT companies – we work hard to do good to American companies and also to our own country.
Not to mention, we gift social security tax .. for Americans to improve their quality of life :)
As I always say … win-win situation … open your eyes to the real truth !!
Vivek, well said sir! Agree 100% with your last two paras.
Shame Shame and more Shame! And yet LOT MORE SHAME!
Once a Theif, always a Theif!
With so many scums Theifs like Vivek, no wonder India is still a BEGGER country.
Hyderabad, Bangalore: India’s H-1B visa fraud hubs.
http://inhome.rediff.com/money/2007/jul/04visa.htm
No wonder I called him a THUG …. that’s how the story started .. in the land of THUGS … and the character continues. Some civilized values have come in by people of other nationalities getting settled there – but long way to go !!
May be you can hold a placard “HELP, MENTALLY CHALLENGED and JOBLESS” and stand at some freeway entrance somewhere .. I saw many of your fellow contrymen begging around LAX … LosAngeles .. oh! did I miss recognizing you then … :) .. may be could have given a dollar .. sorry about that !
Vivek , FYI I have a Housekeeping staff to come and do my floor and carpet .I have out sourced my Lawn maintenance to third party company .
what else?
Check out if the job you do can be outsourced too, may be you can have the opportunity to come back to your motherland and work on the same from here .. at least you can get rid of the ‘alien’ tag that you might be carrying around proudly there …. unless you have started enjoying the idea of being a ‘second or third rate citizen’ .. just for a handfull of dollars -the idea may sound interesting to you
Vive Vive! You know what that means in the GREATEST Country in the WHOLE WORLD!!!!! It means PISS, so your American name is PISS.
To Piss:
Anyone who steals and anyone who buys stolen stuff also says
“it’s a win win” just like you PISS.
You never answer the questions about Visa Fraud, that’s because you must here in the US using a fraud visa, again so very shameful, why are so many indians so low, always stealing and known for being World’s number one JOB THEIFS, just one advice: Please take a shower and brush your teeth everyday and also wear clean cloths, again EVERYDAY. You SMELL like a dired up dead fish. I am doing you a favor! For Gods sake please listen, it’s for your own good.
What is your last name? Is it OFF? so your full name is ‘PISS OFF’
Vivek S…What did you carry when you were here for brief periods ..you must have carried shit loads..You Shit head .
DG
Just ignore AVIVEK! You know where he is coming from:)
Hi,
My neighbor, who is also an MP, told us this incident when Clinton gave a speech to the joint session of parliament.
After he gave the speech, and started leaving – and shaking hands with the National leaders – most of them while shaking his hand – told him that their children are in NY, CA, etc.
As long as parents feel proud that their children are not in this dirty place but in America, and we do not want to try and succeed here in our motherland, H1, I1, K1 will always be there….and some reddy or gaddi will be around…
Vivek,
You seem to be a bigger loser than al ame. No one wants to listen to your stupid outsourcing stories. We dont want to go over the topic of labour arbitrage again!
I have been reading and hearing the stories about outsourcing and downsizing. Here is my story. I want to keep myself anonymous, as my story did not go out of our four walls.
I migrated to US about 22 years ago from India. In
India I tried for 6 years to find a job after finishing my Masters degree. Because of rampant corruption, nepotism, political infuences (which I was lacking, and aginst my concious) I could not find a job.
Then God listened to my prayers and I got an opportunity to come to this Land of Opportunity. After I came here, I was facinated by computers and technology, which I had never even seen a key board in India, and pursued my career. I worked $3 an hour to finance my ambitions.
I finished my BS, and MS Computer Science and positoned in a good job. I was even pursuing my Ph.D in Computer science. But all of a sudden these Indian labor started flooding here. They do not have a formal degree in computers, all they have is a one month programming training in some garage. Some of them not even have college degree and started making more money ( $80 – $100 an hour).
I was frustrated with the situation and questioned myself that why I am wasting time in doing Ph.D, and making much lower salary than those high school graduates, and I dropped out.
In the mean time Indian colleges realized the computer boom and introduced a new program called ‘Master in Computer Applications (MCA)’ which is a one year diploma after high school. Indians started taking this course, and convinced US corporations that they have Masters degree in computer science.
US corporations thought they are getting an MCA (Masters) for cheaper rate than what they are paying to BS computer science programmer, and started replacing them. At workplace where I used to work 9 out of 12 team members are H1-B Indians.
They literally shine my manager’s shoes. Because the company has to sponsor their green cards. They lie about qualificatins and
experience. One guy said he has been in Computer field
since 1983 in India. In India there were no PCs until 1987.
The term ‘computer program’ was never heard there until 1988. Another “software engineer’s” resume says he has been working as a software engineer since 1995 in Bank One. But his passport shows his date of entry to US as 1998.
I have scores of such examples about these so called H1-B software engineers and their qualifications. “An Honest H1-B Indian” is good oxymoran in English language.
My wife and I have two masters degrees each in computer science, and engineering. Our combined salary was $230K till October 2003. One fine morning, the bomb (downsize) exploded- we both got laid off on the same day (we were working for different corporations).
Today, our income is ‘ZERO’. We could not even find minimum wage jobs. We are victims of outsourcing. No third soul knows about situation. Because it spreads fastly to back home and to old age parents.
I was interviewed couple of times by TCS, and Wipro, and they almost offered me the job. But the minute I told them that I am US Citizen, they said their project was on hold.
So far I have not heard even single H1-B guy who is unemployed. Downsizing is effecting only US citizens. In my case, I was replaced by a H1-B. These Indian outsourcing companies are bribing the IT managers and successfully get their job done. The prime element that drove me out of India (corruption), is agin drove me out of my job.
I am ashamed of myself to call I am an Indian.
@freevodka Hello Mr.. For your kind information MCA is not a one year course, nor can be done after high school.. OK please know the facts when ur sharing a public area.
MCA is Post Graduate degree, duration is 3 YEARS ( while all PG degrees have only 2 yrs in INDIA) . and more over expensive course as per indian economy..The eleigibility for this is 3 yrs / 4yrs Bachelor degree and need to get a good rank in entrance test conducted by Universities..
ok thanks…u dont know this info because u left India 22 YEARS ago…People like u who left Inda , instead of repair the system here shoud not blame INDIA…Because you lost the job INDIA can’t be bad.
There is a difference between 15 yr experience and 1 yr experience repeated 15 times – this simple logic is difficult to understand for most – so called – “qualified American workers”. What good are the qualifications and “overall experience” if the person can’t do the job productively … no sane employer will keep paying you for helping shut down his business …. And in America, there are some capable business leaders .. and no wonder they vouch for more H1/L1’s and are shining on the Wall Street … as I say “win-win” …
I have managed many ERP implementation projects in US, for US clients in 4 states across US .. and I am sorry to say that quality of many Americans in the IT department was “low” .. they had put in lot of years of work experience but it was that same story … 1 yr repeated 10 times … limited breath of skills, poor team work, highly-inflexible … poor learnability. There was this “qualified American worker” who had worked all his life on Discoverer reports and in same 2-3 Apps modules .. if you give him a report that concerns a new module .. you’ll probably need to hire another person to help him out … still other “qualified American co-workers” of his would make it a point to applaud his below-standard work in team meetings, whereas they would go all around the world to find fault with work done by 3rd parties. Only thing the “qualified American workers” did well was to take credit of hard work done by H1/L1 folks around. We don’t mind that, we take up a project as per contract and deliver – and move on to the next one !! .. “win-win” ..
There was this one we hired for Oracle Apps work, and it was a nightmare – this guy (“qualified American worker”) had same story in each team meeting – “I am following up the matter with Oracle Support ..” and all he was worried about was his billing rate … never satisfied with what he was paid and always avoiding work .. we had to show him the door after a month of tolerating and had to bring in a person from offshore .. got the work done efficiently and with good quality – of course it required loads of hard-work, dedication, team-work … something that was missing in the “qualified American worker”.
Wake up to the truth .. look at the bigger picture .. it’s a win-win proposition !!
There is always a way to look at things .. you can look from a micro-level … at a particular case/person and try to form opinions .. or you can look at a macro-level and try to understand a bigger picture. For ex: posting your job-loss story and cursing outsourcing/visa-program is like asking the guy in Iraq – who has just lost his family in air raid … “what do you feel about war on terror ..?” … sorry for the analogy, but you can understand that his answer would not be of any help to form opinion on “war on terror” .. that’s a bigger, complex issue … Try to understand that foreign workers are granted visa by US govt as per well thought out policies that are mutually beneficial to US and partner countries, if they were not benefiting US, they would not be there. Temporary workers coming to US on H1/L1 face immense odds and still do a great job for their projects. There is enough material on the internet which proves that direct job losses due to outsourcing are less that new job creations due to industry becoming more competitive. The Indian IT companies who bid for the projects .. bear all the risks, bear all the cost of training, infrastructure , sales.. just to name a few … and the projects are awarded to the companies, not to individual team members … the profit margins made by Indian IT companies are primarily due to efficient execution of Global Delivery Model (GDM) .. requires mature processes ,committed project team at both ends of the globe and a very robust Infrastructure … etc etc .. you need at least few years of work experience in the model to understand it .. and appreciate it. The competitive edge that Indian IT companies have created is by years of hard work, systems, processes, infrastructure and skilled resource pool … and at the end it leads to mutual benefit .. a “win-win” proposition for US clients !!
Vivek S. Are you in Middle Management .Coz you fart a Lot .
I should next time post some real Interviews of Offshore resources and Client managers . Again I am not against Indians or Offshore because I came here from an Offshore Facility but you farts about GLOBAL DELIVERY MODEL…SUCKS Big time .
You must be the guy who moved to Middle management and moving with the same Black Coat across all Clients and showing ‘MAKES NO SENSE’ PPTs to your senior management and taking home a hefty Commission ( Bakshish .
It is not as rosy as you have painted above . Go take a Break .
DG, try getting out of your “commission” mentality … but you won’t be able to .. cos that’s what you preach all day .. multiplying dollars with hourly rate … try speaking less on management .. you must have done sub-contracting most of your life (with lot of boot-licking of American bosses .. as that’s what they must be paying you for ..) … if you can understand simple English … there is nothing “rosy” about what I have posted.
I can at best pity you .. and likes of you … as they say in Hindi … “DHOBI KA KUTTA, NA GHAR KA NA GHAT KA ..”
Saala ..thu tho DHOBI ka Gaada hain ..You get paid Peanuts and sure you are a Monkey
DG will take a while to recover from the “reality shock” .. we’ll come back to him later ..
For you Mr DrugAddict … aka “All American ..”
Why don’t you seek some expert medical help made affordable by social security tax contributed by thousads of H1/L1 professionals … most likely you live on the unemployment benefits from the same …. such a shame, you speak bad about people who earn you your bread …
BTW, you mentioned something about surname stuff .. I was wondering if
you got DNA test done to determine your surname … cos that’s what
you see in Jerry Springer shows (Popular TV shows are reflection of the society ..) … were you one among many of your fellow
contrymen on the JS show .. who run around abusing and tearing each others clothes with crowds cheering … that’s a proof of “SICKEST culture ..” ..not the greatest as you claimed ..
Also … start wearing your pants above your ass .. and don’t forget to
wash rather than wipe .. else you’ll remain a can of worms beneath
a bottle of deodrant .. learn the basics of dressing up and hygiene .. first
learn and then preach !!!
(Viv Viv) American name: PISS
Hey PISS? Is your last name SHIT?
I see you have been watching ‘Jerry Springer’, that just shows your zero IQ, your name should not be PISS, it should be big SHIT.
The artcle below does prove that
India has the sickest culture of all time,
Just how low will some indians go? So very sad.
Not just “Job thiefs” but also female baby killers.
India probes baby body parts find
Police in the eastern Indian state of Orissa say they have recovered nearly 30 bags full of babies’ body parts from a waste dump near a maternity clinic. Forensic tests are being carried out on the remains following the raid near the town of Nayagarh on Sunday.
It is thought the find could be linked to the killing of female foetuses
a practice fairly widespread in India.
Just so very Shameful!
Nice discussion
Today at CNBC Larry Kudlow is vehemently arguing in favor of H1B Quotas to be increased. He is calling the republicans’ initiative to curb the H1b quota a stupid mistake.
This is disgusting. Larry and his supporters think that you can maintain global competitiveness by hiring foreign workers who essentially gain underground training in sweat shops of Indian owned IT contracting companies and on the job getting paid $13-30/hr (if at all).
We have in America the best of the best Universities in the World. So are all these domestic grads fools? Quite an assumption. And the foreign students from the same universities are ready to work for any wage just to gain experience and undercut the jobs from experienced and qualified local candidates who deserve to get paid much more.
Yet the argument is that we need more foreign workers. Today who needs to hire IT people when the business is down to near zero. Didn’t you hear about 621k jobs lost last month, part of which are IT jobs. Companies today are able to fire established and experience IT workers BECAUSE they are readily substituted by less than half as expensive H1B workers.
These are part of the new jobs being created, you see.
To see the brutality of reality just look at the Craigslist Resume section. People are begging to get any jobs or else they will be on the road. Now look at the Jobs section, which is still largely dominated by contracting company recruiters. They advertise 7-10 years of required experience in many of the IT areas offering $13-30/hr which used to command $40-$90/hr.
So you still think America needs more foreign workers? If the demand is high why are prices falling??? Did you guess, that I am an IT professional from Indian Origin?
If we need foreign workers here in US, then why is there a need to prevent out-sourcing of jobs. Dems who are under this illusion are truly the face of hypocrisy and possibly world class stupidity.