Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi has walked out of an interview with Karan Thapar for the CNN-IBN programme, Devil’s Advocate. Below is the transcript of the few minutes that were recorded before Modi felt the heat of Thapar’s questioning on the 2002 pogrom which Prime Minister Manmohan Singh recently termed a “holocaust“.
Modi and his minders in the BJP believe that he was only exercising his “freedom” in walking out of the powwow when asked about his “image problem”. But, in spite of Gujarat’s supposed development under Modi, does the “Modern Day Nero” owe an explanation to the world for what happened in 2002? Or is a modern day hero?
If Manmohan Singh could apologise for the anti-Sikh progrom of 1984, although he was in no way involved, should the BJP pick up the cue and apologise for the post-Godhra genocide, in spite of or regardless of the provocation? Or is Modi right in showing an aggressive interviewer the door in the name of Gujarati asmita and being unapologetic?
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Karan Thapar: Mr Narendra Modi, let’s start by talking about you. In the six years that you have been the CM of Gujarat, the Rajiv Gandhi Foundation has declared Gujarat to be the best administered state. India Today, on two separate occasions, declared that you are the most efficient chief minister. And despite that people still call you to your face a mass murderer and they accuse you of being prejudiced against Muslims? Do you have an image problem?
Narendra Modi: I think it’s not proper to say that (there are) people. There are two or three persons who talk in this terminology and I always say God bless them.
Q: You are saying this is the conspiracy of two or three persons only?
Modi: I have not said so.
Q: But you are saying it’s only two or three people.
Modi: This is the information I have. It’s the people’s voice.
Q: Can I point out to you that in September 2003, the Supreme Court said that they had lost faith in the Gujarat government? In April 2004, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court said that you were like a modern day Nero who looks the other side when helpless children and innocent women were being burnt. The Supreme Court seems to have a problem with you.
Modi: I have a small request to make. Please go through the SC judgment. If there is anything in writing, I’ll be happy to know everything.
Q: There was nothing in writing, you are right. It was an observation.
Modi: If it is in (the) judgment, then I’ll be happy to give you the answer.
Q: But do you mean a criticism by the chief justice in court doesn’t matter?
Modi: It’s a simple request. Please go through the court judgment. Hand out the sentence you are quoting and let the people know it.
Q: OK. It wasn’t just an open comment made by the Chief Justice. In August 2004, the Supreme Court reopened some 2,100 cases out of a total of around 4,600 — almost 40 per cent — and they did so because they believed that justice hadn’t happened in Gujarat.
Modi: I’ll be happy. Ultimately, the court of law will take the judgment.
Q: But isn’t this the reason that despite the fact (that) India Today called you the best chief minister, (and) the Rajiv Gandhi Foundation says Gujarat is the best administered state, tens of millions say Modi is prejudiced against the Muslims. This is why I ask you do you have an image problem?
Modi: Actually, I have not spent a single minute on my image. And that can also be a reason. I am busy with my work. I am committed to Gujarat, I am dedicated to Gujarat. I never talk about my image, (have) never spent a single minute for my image, and confusions may be there.
Q: I’ll tell you what the problem is, even five years after the Gujarat killings of 2002, the ghost of Godhra still haunts you. Why have you not done more to allay that ghost?
Modi: This I give it to media persons like Karan Thapar. Let them enjoy.
Q: Can I suggest something to you?
Modi: I have no problem.
Q: Why can’t you say that you regret the killings that happened? Why can’t you say maybe the government should have done more to protect Muslims?
Modi: What I had to say I have said at that time, and you can find out my statements.
Q: Just say it again.
Modi: Not necessary I have to talk about in 2007 everything you want to talk about.
Q: But by not saying it again, by not letting people hear the message repeatedly, you are allowing an image contrary to the interest of Gujarat to continue. It’s in your hands to change it.
Modi: (Takes the microphone off.) I’ll have to rest. I need some water.
Q: Paani (water).
Modi: Dosti bani rahe. Bas. I’ll be happy. You came here. I am happy and thankful to you. I can’t do this interview. It’s OK your things are. Apne ideas hain, aap bolte rahiye, aap karte rahiye. Three-four questions I’ve already enjoyed. Nahin please.
Q: But Modi saab…
Modi: Nahin please, Karan
Q: But Modi saab…
Modi: Karan, dekho main dostana sambhand rakhna chahta hoon, aap usko koshish kariye…
Q: Mujhe ek cheez samjhaiye, Sir. I am not talking about doing anything wrong. I am saying why can’t you correct your image?
Modi: This is not the time. Uske liye aap mujhe 2002 mein mile hote, 2003 mein mile hote, main sab kar leta.
The only good an apology will do is that it would be, by definition, an acknowledgment that he (Modi) did something wrong, or that he is aware that something horribly wrong occurred. This he is unlikely to do. He seems to be more interested in ignoring the matter. Perhaps Karan Thapar was a little aggressive – but he’s a journalist. He was doing his job. (I say this based on your transcript; I have no way of viewing the show). What happened in Gujarat was a crime, and justice has not been done. This genocide is shifting quietly into the pages of fading history – like Ayodhya, like Bhopal, like the Uphaar tragedy, it will be mentioned annually, perhaps, eventually just becoming something that happened, a long time ago, to somebody somewhere. Ignoring it or refusing to acknowledge it is part of a clever process of ideological disassociation that leads towards forgetfulness and apathy.
This whole “apology for genocide” business is a bit of mockery frankly. Say this out loud, and see how ridiculous it sounds:
“We are sorry so many people died because of us and we promise never to do it again… and even if we do, we’ll make sure we apologize!”
The fact that the apology in this case comes out does not mean genuine sadness or sorrow or even a feeling of remorse. It is just that it is politically expedient to do so at the present moment. Or that you are in no position to do a Bart Simpson and say “Uh.. I didn’t do it”. Or that your enemies have cornered you and you are trying to play nice.
By this logic should we get the Mongols, the Persians, the Uzbeks and the British to apologize for the sacking and burning of Delhi and the murder of every one of its inhabitants? And even if they did, what difference does it make?
The only way to tackle a genocide, and here’s what nobody will tell you, is to fight an aggressive war of destruction (World War II, Rwanda, Serbia, Cambodia) or unanimously boycott the regime so that they feel the economic pinch and stop (sort of ineffective as a shit country like Sudan has shown). In Gujarat neither could be done, and the Gujaratis (at least an electoral majority) seem hell bent on putting the supposed “mass murderer” back in power. And even if he loses elections, fat chance that any court will successfully convict him for any offence (that is if he is tried in the first place). If nothing else, the man is not stupid.
The other big farce is the whole political agenda behind “finding those responsible” and punishing them according to law. This joke got carried too far with the International Criminal Court. This hides the fact that often, the truly successful genocides demand mass participation. No elite cabal, no secret conspiracy can EVER commit genocide. You need organization, troops, planning and proper execution (literally) to carry out a genocide, and if you can’t punish all involved (as was done at the end of world war II), trying to punish the “top brass” is a ridiculous farce. Exhibit A: Slobodan Milosevic.
After enormous cost, numerous years in trial, what has the ICTY done really? Acted as a warning? Punished the wrongdoers? No simply because some of the worst killers are free and roaming. Exhibit B: Ratko Mladic.
Or do we hope to scare off future genocide makers by threatening them with long litigation, some incarceration and excessive litigation fees? No, because in the world of Genocide Law, if no one catches you, you aren’t guilty (not literally, but you get the picture). Exhibit C: Sudan in Darfur.
So yeah, the BJP will apologize, some 40-50 years from now, if the party is still the same, and they are contesting a Municipal Poll and the Muslim vote could swing their way. Or maybe if the BJP puts up a Muslim candidate who becomes a Prime Minister, and wants to make top billing on an otherwise slow news day.
churumuri,
you are a camp follower of ‘The Hindu’.Why dont you apologise for the unnecessary remarks on bihar who in turn poured scorn on karnataka?
KP what is so great about copying what is available in video at CNN IBN website any way ?
Modi says: What I had to say I have said at that time, and you can find out my statements.
Why cannot you dig out what he actually said at that time ?
Perhaps Karan should not worry about Modi’s “inage” unless he is Modi’s publicity manager. He should post direct questions (accusations) or get into a debate with Modi over “secular” issues. Interesting to note that Dr. Singh has magnanimously apologised for the “anti-Sikh progrom of 1984.” Has he also tendered apologies for the “Pundit Pogrom” in Kashmir and for the “Partition Pogrom”?
modi should have been hauled up for his incompetence/complicity in the riots.
but calling the riots of gujrat a genocide is orwellian. about 200-300 hindus too were murdered in what ensued. this is not semantics but genocide is not an apt descrption of what happenned there. this type of psy-ops by media is as dark and ominous as modi’s complicity. today if it can colour a riot a genocide how do you trust them on other issues?
TS,
Genocide does not have to do with numbers. It is systematic elimination of an ethnic, religious or national group. Refer to the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. If not the numbers, the intention behind what happened in Gujarat makes it genocide.
Though, I agree that what makes Godhra terrible is the total state complicity. Modi should have been pulled up for it.
GK…
i understand that, i’m not talking about numbers. What i am saying is that reducing what happenned in ahmedabad to genocide does not account for the hundreds of hindus that were murdered post godhra in ahmedabad area.
what happenned in ahmedabad must be described and recalled in its entirety and not be reduced to expedient soundbites and political slogans.
and media playing this game is ominous because of that.
TS,
If so, then we will have to look at riots in their entirety: who sponsors them, who benefits from them and who usually gets pumelled. And when it comes to that, if we take a pan-Indian view, we know what the answer is.
And as John Pilger argues elsewhere, all ethnic disturbances or riots are sparked by a dead baby story. The perpetrators were so heartless they killed even innocent children and now we have to get our revenge.
Then we know what happens…
Will Karan, Grill:
1. Sonia as to why she cannot get back Mr. Q ( Is it sri.Q now) to India to face Indian Laws in Bofors case when We could get even Abu Salem?
2. Why some congress goons are still roaming around after planning and implementing the sikh massacre.Mere apology won’t do and they should also face the law even if they belong to Congress.
Then, and only then we can admire Karan for grilling Modi.
Apologize is too mild. The party of the Hindu right wing thugs should have been disbarred from contesting elections anyplace in India, till they eschew
religion in politics.
The biggest scourge in India are the commie sons of bitches on the left and socially conservative bastards on the right (Hindu, Muslim, Christian: take your pick…)
Till people in this nation stop thinking like sheep and act as individuals with some spine, we will see all sorts of genocide and violence. Democracy with 80% illiterates and 100% religious fanatics is a dangerous brew. India is a case in point.
Talking of genocide and MMS’s sudden show of testosterone against the BJP, it is to be remembered that the same govt headed voted against a resolution in the UN General Assembly calling for January 27 to be observed each year as a memorial day for the six million Jews of the ‘real’ holocaust.. so much for the pleasure ahmedinejad and the commies..
Does Apology solve everything….
ManMohan Singh apologise But next day got TYTLER clean Chit from CBI…..
YOU ARE right that ManMohan apologise for which he was not involved So question is Will Gandhi Family apologise or for that matter Rahul Gandhi apologise.
Finally I ask you how many HINDUS or MUSLIM died,as our PM terms this “Holocaust.Genocide” and compare with 84 riots were more than 4000 ONLY SIKHS were Killed.
Dr.Singh should first see the meaning of words he says…..
Mr Karan, you are a cunning fellow. You did the same with Jayalalita and she gave it back to you. Why don’t you first tackle positive things done by an individual and then raise negative issues. Do you have the guts to do this to Pratiba Patil or Sonia or Lalu or Mayavathi? We would like you to take up on these individuals before the coming Elections. Good luck.
“But by not saying it again, by not letting people hear the message repeatedly, you are allowing an image contrary to the interest of Gujarat to continue.”
Let me get this right. If Modi says it again on Karan Thapar’s chat show, then Modi’s and Gujarat’s image will be restored. Is that what Thapar said? Do I hear it correctly?
If that’s really what he said, he must be very dumb. Or at least acting stupid. How can a big image problem be simply be solved by saying a few magic words on a television show? Does that make sense?
Now that Gujarat is going for an election, let the people decide about Mr. Narendra Modi. Karan Thapar need not worry about the image of Modi. Instead he along with his other colleague journalists can write whatever shit they want to…… As if all the journalists are angels!
why the hell some people here are so opposed to Modi and so supportive of Congress? A sin is a sin. and both Modi and congress are culprits in my eyes. but Modi has grown up beyond such communal politics and he is the man behind the glowing Gujarat now. no body can deny that. when he has provided electricity to Kuttch, he never asked Muslims to refrain from using it. When he electrified 18,000 villages in just 3 years, he also lightened the homes of Muslims.
the congress supporting buggers have to look at its history. congress is responsible for communal politics in India. and those who support them are also, in a way. If your hearts cry out for Muslims only, then you too are communal.
and KP, please also quote what Modi said in the recent Hindustan Leadership Summit. one of the most inspiring speeches i have ever heard.
congress supporting buggers, please learn a bit from Modi!
In 1991 there were anti-tamil riots in karnataka.A few weeks ago three persons died in a bus burning incident.Tamil TV channels and cinemas are banned in karnataka whenever there is a problem(veerapan or cauvery)in TN.
Nobody can condone such acts.Yet I(a smartha living in madras) has profound sympathy for karnataka.Because I can understand the fury,pent up resentment in karnataka.
Karnataka and gujarat are hindutva states along with maharashtra and north india.
The muslim problem is tamil problem magnified 100 times and far more vicious history.
While nobody supports riots it is immoral to paint one of our states and its people in darkest colours.
Narendra Modi is a ‘backward’ politician who is forward looking.Madhavsingh Solanki was the father of the sinister “KHAM”(Kshatriya,Harijan,Adivasi,Muslim) policy.
Do we want every state to go the way of DMK,PMK
I am not a businessman nor am i anti dalit or anti backward.
We want all sections to move forward.Narendra Modi is the type of politician with whom any brahmana would be comfortable.He is not corrupt nor is he casteist.Whether the development agenda he supports is right or not might be debatable.I am interested in knowing how many ‘backward’ caste politicians have his vision.
Alright…….
OnDu kanNige BeNNE, OnDu kanNige SuNNA.
Does Karan has same BALLS to ask Karunanidhi about his hatred for Hindus??????
I watche dthe modi videos on youtube and he made a mincemeat of rajdeep sardesai who seemed to be hell bent to insult him with ‘The Hindu’ kindof agenda.
BTW, our PM lost the elections in the posh south delhi seat the only time he contested for the LS from south delhi, a sikh bastion so to say.. reason?? just b4 the elections, he blamed the RSS for the anti-sikh riots!!
Karan Thapar perhaps thought that by extracting some kind of a mea culpa from Modi he would have had a big scoop (and may be an award and a half from some NGO). By sugar coating his verbal trap with a dubious concern for Modi’s “image” he thought he could floor Modi. Our Angrezi media never intimidated Rajiv (or Sonia or Rahul, for that matter) with this kind of holier-than-though behavious in regard to the anti-Sikh pogrom of 1984. Was the Delhi imam ever subjected to this kind of questioning? Sermons on secularism are reserved only for the BJP parivar.
Congress supporting buggers, please learn a bit from Modi on running the State and development.!” He has done something things agains all odds, what the Congress couid not- did not do all these years.
WELL SAID!
Remember that by condemning one CM as communal or otherwise you cannot change the course of history. By such publicity and propaganda these so-called journalists may try to give a different picture than that exists in that particular state. History records it and statistics speak for it, and ther are agencies that assess the progress, achievement and development in the state. You counter them if they are wrong, that should be the motto of your journalism. Leaving all these, asking the same questions, repeating the words like genocide/massacre what can you achieve. Such things happen not because of a particular chief minister or party, it is caused many times by disgruntled politicians/people who have no better business to do. Condemn them and their acts.
Karan ji see this
Dharma,Thank you, it iw worth watching.
Indian media is too much biased for them killing of hindus is nothing because according to them Hindus are not humans onlu Muslims are humans. For that some theory and say we need not discuss about hindus killing by Islamists
What Modi has done is perfectly reasonable. Several times he has tried to avoid the topic. The matter is sub-judice and under investigation of Nanavati commission. What is the point in bringing the same set of questions with humiliating manner. I know couple of such questions
1> Do you still beat your wife? (You start with the opinion that the person used to beat your wife earlier)
2> What is your wife’s paramour doing now-a days?
Gujrat has long history of islamic barbarism and frequent classhes between Gujjus and moslems. Modi has not brought any new culture there.
After the buring of pilgims, RSS and VHP people have organised and started the riot. As a chief minister, he should have tried to stop this. But he would have lost the next election. The sentiment was very high against moslems in Gujrat. Even Congress has not tried to do anything there even though they have lost their ex-MP.
How in any form or manner can Narendra Modi’s actions be justified?
The truth of the matter is that what happened in Gujarat was a Genocide. In theoretical terms, under international human rights law (the genocide convention specifically)… it was a genocide… there is overriding factual evidence to prove it.
Again in 2007, there was a killing of a “suspected terrorist” with Modi saying that “he got what he deserved”… his intent towards muslim minorities is more than clear.
Genocide is a generic crime which allows for individual criminal accountability. As India (a territorially wholistic country) has ratified the genocide convention, it is obliged to obey it. India should try Narendra Modi for committing crimes against humanity. If genocide is accepted as a crime against humanity in international human rights law, then no person or state can deny their awareness to what acts are inclusive in the term itself.
The sikh tragedy was indeed a tragedy… but the death of those people does not in any form justify the killings in Gujarat. The death of hindus in godhra does not imply a need for “a reaction” as Modi termed it. People, we need to look beyond numbers and religious backgrounds. When hitler set out to exterminate jews, no one could have denied it was a genocide… no one stood up to say oh… during the second world war… so and so people from so and so country were killed by so and so official. This does not mean that deaths of those individuals are to be disregarded… but one issue has to be dealt with at a time.
In this case, India should try Narendra Modi for committing crimes against humanity. In fact he could be tried for this in any country… why else would he refrain from visiting UK in 2005 and why else would the US deny him a diplomatic visa (reasons listed under the section of having been involved in carrying out severe violations of religious freedoms)?
People in India need to look beyond the past battles towards what is obvious. Narendra Modi convicted would imply a lot more forward thinking from the Indian Government than ever before, providing additional protections to other minority groups as well (including the sikhs).
It is high time the Hindutwits urged the Election Commission to bring the Supreme Court under its purview when the Model Code of Conduct comes into force.
That would stop ill-timed decisions like these.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Probe-Modis-role-in-Gujarat-riots-SC-to-SIT/articleshow/4455161.cms
http://deccanherald.com/Content/Apr272009/national20090427132745.asp?section=updatenews
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/000200904271670.htm
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/sc-orders-probe-into-modis-role-in-guj-riots/91201-37.html
I am “astonished” that the Sikh tragedy is a “tragedy” and not genocide!
So who will bear that responsibility Astonished & PK?
It’s also an amusing distraction to find that Modi was not on any “radar” for his alleged complicity in the 2002 riots.
I think the DH link also says SIT is already investigating the Gulbarg Society killings.
Someone help PK see the difference between a court “direction” and “decision”!