The Vatican has delivered a stinging Deepavali message to India. In response to persistent and even growing accusations that poor Hindus were being pressured to convert to Christianity by missionaries using a variety of blandishments, including money, the seat of the Roman Catholic Church has said it was impossible to forcibly convert anyone to another religion.
“There can be no coercion in religion: no one can be forced to believe, neither can anyone who wishes to believe be prevented from doing so,” Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, who heads the pontifical council for interreligious dialogue, said.
Questions: Is the Vatican right or wrong? Are Indians converting to Christianity out of choice and on their own volition? Or are they being forced into it with money playing a not insignificant role especially among the poor in the vast tribal belts? Is the good work of Christian missionaries, especially in health and education, being undermined by the false and deceitful propaganda of Hindu fundamentalist groups raising the conversion bogey?
Also read: Should conversions be allowed?
churumuri 
If people are converting to christianity voluntarily what can anyone do about it as the constitution grants us the freedom to choose our religion. If the church is paying money to the Hindu poor to convert and the torch bearers of Hinduism( the Mutts, VHP et al) should be countering the church’s by putting their money where their mouths are and not merely making a noise about it. It’s clear that Hindu groups see votes in making an issue out of conversion. But they are not seriously concerned about it.
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Even today in rural India Harijans are still not allowed to enter temple premises (same in my village also). If we don’t allow these people into temples, why should we expect them to stay as Hindus….?
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I know cases were an individual was paid around 8 lakhs to convert to christianity. The Individual was in debts and in need and he happily did that. But sorry I dont have concrete proof for my allegations.
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Us Hindus who don’t mind dropping a few lakhs for appeasing Satyanarayana should pool that money instead to provide help and services to the poor among us. The only ones complaining about “forced conversions” are the Hindu middle classes.
Having said that, control the money coming in from abroad to these Christian missions and the problem is automatically solved. Also deny a visa to every American or Korean who abuses the tourist visa. No one needs to be a tourist for 6 months or 1 year. I personally knew someone in the US who was quite proud of her “God’s work” in India. When I pointed out that she was illegally indulging in missionary activities on a tourist visa, she instead argued that such restrictions went against the freedom of religion. A visit to any church on a corner here shows a whole lot of posters and sermons on “the children of God living in darkness”.
As it is, most of these churches use that money to erect ugly “prayer halls” or “community halls” in villages where nothing but missionary activity happens. There wouldn’t be any great loss is blocking that money. Prove that the money will be used for a socially useful cause, such as building a school or a hospital, and let the money in.
And while you are at it, apply the same restrictions to all religions.
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The question is – after a few years of conversion, are the poor hindus who converted better off in life or not.
From what little I have seen, they (and their descendants) are better off – at least the ones most oppressed by the caste system. Some people like to use the term ‘harijan convert’ in private conversations to refer to people of some castes who have converted to christianity – especially when they are seen to have done well (done well materially, speak english etc.).
In any case – if a religion causes circumstances which keeps you and your children poor for generations, what is the harm in trying something else which seems more promising? Even if it means accepting money initially? After all how long will the money last? We are talking about a lifelong commitment here, if money was the only thing – people would abandon their new religion once the bribe ran out.
And who are we to prevent someone else from being exposed to some idea? Commies could do that since they say we dont want anyone else to believe in any religion at all (opium of the masses etc.).
If people are leaving to a religion or movement which professes harm to others – then it would of course be a matter of concern to the rest of us. However it doesnt seem that in India that christians have the mindset of violence or revenge or even causing large-scale social disturbance.
I would like to see what a person like mr. hindu (the serial poster) would say on this issue.
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it is not so much conversion by bribe that is as concerning as conversion by false promises and deceit. when a bribe is offered, the ‘convertee’ atleast is not empty handed after he converts. i personally, wouldnt pay anybody to be a hindu. or muslim. or christian. i simply dont see the point. but if someone is so desperate to convert people and are willing to pay for it, let them put out ads in the newspaper and announce that they’ll pay every convert Rs. X. They can even have offers like Rs. 1.5 X for everyone who calls within the next 24 hours etc.,.
But what is criminal is conversion by deceit. I have seen illiterate and sick people, instead of being referred to doctors being converted by promising them that their sickness will be cured magically upon conversion. In many cases, this has even led to conversion by one or two members of the family while the others are against it… and eventually distress and breakup in the family.
and will self righteous souls here stop pointing out that there is casteism in hinduism and therefore it serves us right that these people convert. what a load of bollocks! in india, there is casteism and hierarchies among christians and muslims too. ‘convertee’ christians and muslims are always second class citizens among their flock and are many times not allowed into the same churches as their ‘purer’ and ‘more vorjinal’ brothers. and anyway, untouchability is a crime. right? so how about making conversion (atleast conversion by deceit) a crime too?
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Agreed sisya about the deceit part (to some extent).
But about the casteism part you say that some people are insinuating that caste hindus deserve what they are getting – ‘therefore it serves us right that these people convert. what a load of bollocks!’
If someone converts someone else – what effect does it have on you? No one is teaching you a lesson by converting their religious belief. They are doing it for their own reasons (material wealth, they were fooled whatever you say).
And anyway – the illiterate and sick are not mentally unstable and if they are of age they can decide what to do, you dont need a law against that. So converted on their own free will (which is also probably true, because their conversion would mean nothing if they werent willing).
Go ahead pass a law for conversion against deceit – what percentage of all conversions are by deceit? 0.1%?
Since you mention conversions should be made a crime – Saudi Arabia probably does already have laws for apostasy (though I read somewhere that the quran itself doesnt talk about this). So you suggesting that we follow their lead in this matter?
And yes untouchability is a crime – whether practised by hindus, christians, muslims or anyone else. For whatever reason. Right?
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‘Make conversion a crime.’
That means I have no choice to convert or let anyone influence my ideas.
I am whatever I am from birth to death.
Sounds very much like the caste system all over again.
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Why don’t all these people who fight for harijans start becoming harijans? I feel that’s the best answer to the problems. That way you can see how accomodative harijans are and also you can test your own commitment to to the downtrodden.
You never know they also have a hierarchy!!!
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‘These people’ will decide themselves. Whether they want to be harijan or christian or hindu or nothing at all. You are free to influence them though :)
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Not relevant but interesting!
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Only our so called SECULAR party the UPA with Gowda’s help can explain
this !!
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i agree with G3S. i will also add …
#1a. basically at the most fundamental level, it is a governance issue and having failed miserably at it, govt has outsourced its job to holiburtons. the govt has failed miserably to universalize education and health care for one. failure to enforce its own laws is another.
please donot kid yourselves, minority institutions enjoy special previliges to set up hospitals and schools and at the same time enjoy immunity that hindus dont – there is constant interference by state and media in matters hindu be it fiscal or spiritual. guruvayur is a problem, but has anyone ever done an oliver twist for the hindu who attends a catholic church? can a hindu get the sacrament in a catholic church? when was the last time a church was audited?
#1b. can you list the number of schools and hospitals that offer education and care at govt levels of affordability? All the schools I know are involved in the donation scam, at the very least charge a crisp rupaayi as tuition fees. ditto hospitals. if there are any that do yeoman service please educate me. and, please, dont give me missionaries of charities as example. we all know the scam that it was/is. MoC, infact, underlines my point.
#2a. again back to my other point, freedom to propogate your religion is a protection to a theoretical value meant to protect ordinary person that the holiburtons exploit. anybody who has seen those propogation materials, can you please explain which testament contains materials about kali and other hindu gods being satanic.
#2b. which constitutional provision provides for the specter that benny hill or who ever that charlaton was, conducted in bangalore. And pray where were the enivronmentalists(killing of snakes) and rationalists(staged miracles) when all this was hapenning?
all this not to discount the screwed up social system that the hindus have evolved, despite an all encompassing theology, but we cannot mistake these holiburtons for a basavanna, despite the coloured blinkers that theories provide. if only the there was a penny for akka to every $ that the “mother” enjoyed…. as G3S said a penny to every rupaayi to satyanaarayaNa would do wonders. but then hey, there is dharmasthala for those interested.
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Maybe not directly related – extracts from the United Nations Commission of Human Rights website on The right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion:
3. Article 18 distinguishes the freedom of thought, conscience, religion or belief from the freedom to manifest religion or belief. It does not permit any limitations whatsoever on the freedom of thought and conscience or on the freedom to have or adopt a religion or belief of one’s choice. These freedoms are protected unconditionally, as is the right of everyone to hold opinions without interference in article 19.1. In accordance with articles 18.2 and 17, no one can be compelled to reveal his thoughts or adherence to a religion or belief.
4. The freedom to manifest religion or belief may be exercised “either individually or in community with others and in public or private”. The freedom to manifest religion or belief in worship, observance, practice and teaching encompasses a broad range of acts. The concept of worship extends to ritual and ceremonial acts giving direct expression to belief, as well as various practices integral to such acts, including the building of places of worship, the use of ritual formulae and objects, the display of symbols, and the observance of holidays and days of rest. The observance and practice of religion or belief may include not only ceremonial acts but also such customs as the observance of dietary regulations, the wearing of distinctive clothing or headcoverings, participation in rituals associated with certain stages of life, and the use of a particular language customarily spoken by a group. In addition, the practice and teaching of religion or belief includes acts integral to the conduct by religious groups of their basic affairs, such as the freedom to choose their religious leaders, priests and teachers, the freedom to establish seminaries or religious schools and the freedom to prepare and distribute religious texts or publications.
5. The Committee observes that the freedom to “have or to adopt” a religion or belief necessarily entails the freedom to choose a religion or belief, including the right to replace one’s current religion or belief with another or to adopt atheistic views, as well as the right to retain one’s religion or belief. Article 18.2 bars coercion that would impair the right to have or adopt a religion or belief, including the use of threat of physical force or penal sanctions to compel believers or non-believers to adhere to their religious beliefs and congregations, to recant their religion or belief or to convert. Policies or practices having the same intention or effect, such as, for example, those restricting access to education, medical care, employment or the rights guaranteed by article 25 and other provisions of the Covenant, are similarly inconsistent with article 18.2. The same protection is enjoyed by holders of all beliefs of a non-religious nature.
http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/0/9a30112c27d1167cc12563ed004d8f15
Let our government regulate illegal practise (forceful conversion by threat of violence or denying a job etc.), as per our constitution.
However it is for the individual concerned to choose her/his religion. It is his personal business and you have no right to prevent him from seeking out whatever he feels is best in his own situation. If you think it is best – do make him see your way, by giving him money, explaining how your religion makes best sense to him, healing him, educating him, just talking to him nicely, fooling him :) whatever.
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The “…i personally know of someone who received money to convert…” stories abound, but seriously, how does one run into information like that!
I for one, have never come across any FIRSTHAND information. It has always been the “i’ve heard that” and “you know? in my home town..” and “i can tell you for a fact that”. Which, in barrister speak, is Hearsay.
(http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/405/405lect11.htm)
And this is probably the Most commonly offered charge against “those Christians and their conversions”. I would like some solid PROOF that this sort of stuff actually goes on. When Christian doctors practice quackery to get people to convert, and when missionaries are roaming the interiors handing out dollars to any prospective convert in a tight financial spot…it requires a stretch of my imagination.
BTW: holiburton???????!
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Dear Sir,
The Supreme Court of India has upheld protection of religious freedom acts enacted by different state Govts in India (first enacted by Madhya Pradesh(MP) Govt in mid 1960s when Congress was ruling it) way back in 1978, when BJP was not even born. The Neogi Committee report constituted by MP Govt under Chief Justice of MP High Court has extensive details how conversions were (and still are) taking place in large parts of Tribal belt.
Does the poor have unalienable rights to pursue their religion, or they must become victim of western funded religious conversion which is more of geo politics, less of religion.
Other than Conversion, missionaries also engage in organized disrepute of Hinduims (basically everything other than their religion). Churumuri being published from Mysore, I would like to refer to auto-bio graphy of RK Narayan where he expressed his feeling when he was a student at Mysore.
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/12/18/061218crbo_books?printable=true
RK writes in his unique style: “Ours was a Lutheran Mission School—mostly for boarders who were Christian converts. The teachers were all converts, and, towards the few non-Christian students like me, they displayed a lot of hatred. Most of the Christian students also detested us. The scripture classes were mostly devoted to attacking and lampooning the Hindu gods, and violent abuses were heaped on idol-worshippers as a prelude to glorifying Jesus. Among the non-Christians in our class I was the only Brahmin boy, and received special attention; the whole class would turn in my direction when the teacher said that Brahmins”. Plase note, RK was not a fantic Hindu, but was a keen observer of events.
Its the same story which you will find in colonial Calutta in late 19th Century and this organized disrepute was one of the reason for revival of Hinduism in Bengal (and India) in the form of Ramakrishna, Bankim Chatterjee, Swami Vivekanand. Historian Tapan Roychoudury has expressed this opinion.
Yes, Conversion thro’ allurement, force is a fraud. And its not religion, but geo-politics. Post WWII, Western countries are again using religion as a covert means of colonialism.
I have a word for Aruna Urs who wrote: “Even today in rural India Harijans are still not allowed to enter temple premises (same in my village also). If we don’t allow these people into temples, why should we expect them to stay as Hindus….?”.
Madam, in Bengal and Orissa, we have temples, priests from Dalit Community who are probably more proudly Hindu, religious than may be you/me. India is a huge country and anything can be said on. Please also see the huge effort, specially the Bhakti Movement which started in South India from 8th century onward in eradicating caste.
As Swami Vivekanand said: caste is not in scripture, its in society.
By the way, why the same ‘converted’ Christians are now demanding reservation as “dalit” even after conversion?
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I believe that the Catholic church is the most diabolic instrument for mind control conceived in the history of Human kind. A organized hierarchy of fanatics that filled the pages of history with blood. Christianity was the basis for the colonization of much of the world. “Heathen”, “savages” they said borrowing from the much revered bible, whilst cleansing entire peoples from the face of the earth. Of course, there are honorable exceptions: men and women that embodied the spirit of the message in the sermon on the mount. But, If you look at history closely, today’s Islamic fanatics will pale in comparison to their Catholic/Christian counterparts of yesteryears.
That said, in the marketplace of ideas, they have every right to spread their filth and acquire more sheep to strengthen their numbers. Who knows, the poor of India might even find some succor from their miserable lives. After all, what is a little mental slavery when you are facing starvation.
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I agree with Anonymous Guy above who says: it is for the individual concerned to choose her/his religion. It is his personal business and you have no right to prevent him from seeking out whatever he feels is best in his own situation. If you think it is best – do make him see your way, by giving him money, explaining how your religion makes best sense to him, healing him, educating him, just talking to him nicely, fooling him :) whatever.
The converted person can file a case if he’s forced to convert as a quid pro quo harassment in his job or something. Or some kind of deception/breach of contract if promises are not fulfilled.
Beyond this, the State has no role in regulating religion (I am not decided about allowing foreign money for religion. Maybe treat it as some kind of FDI and create some simple rules.)
Instead of removing religion completely from the ambit of the State, we keep dragging in the Govt. in all forms.
Am I the only one who thinks the quality of comments by G3S, Alok etc far exceeds the silly questions raised in blog posts here?
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On evangalistic Christians (the fundamentalist variety) and their ilk:
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
Mahatma Gandhi
And on how man fashions God in his own image:
http://thepaincomics.com/weekly050504.htm
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“it is for the individual concerned to choose her/his religion. It is his personal business and you have no right to prevent him from seeking out whatever he feels is best in his own situation. If you think it is best – do make him see your way, by giving him money, explaining how your religion makes best sense to him, healing him, educating him, just talking to him nicely, fooling him :) whatever.”
Interesting. What if the professed religion is an organized conspiracy that seeks control for powers elsewhere? Let us be honest, In the case of the Catholic church, their priests report to the Vatican. Vatican, these days, is the self confessed protector of “Western” Identity. Look at the hue and cry over Shekar Kapur’s “The Golden Age” and the kind of language the Church used when it took umbrage over it. In such a case, is it detrimental for a country to let such organizations spread their religion? What makes us so sure that Christian Institutions are not merely the instruments of Western Imperialism?
I’m all for freedom of religion. An individual has every right to read the bible and embrace Christ. But, does he have to embrace an institution? That too one that might not have benign intentions towards the host country.
The Catholic church will seem benign when compared to their evangelical counterparts. There was one Tehelka report that made it seem that they (evangelicals) were little more than intelligence gatherers for the West.
Lots of Questions, with few answers…
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Melange,
What if indeed. What if islam… what if the jews… what if hindus… There are agendas and propaganda on all sides.
So who decides what is good or bad for my personal belief with respect to religion? Me? or you and the government? (please take me and you figuratively here).
An earlier post of mine got moderated – where I expressed a negative opinion of Evangelicals of the Benny Hinn variety. Or for that matter any Muslim or Hindu fundamentalist. But that is my opinion. I can share it with others, influence them and even ask them to convert to my opinion. But can I deny them their choice in belief however strongly I feel about it?
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sing the song Mr Luvva Luvva emmmmm Bombastic really fantastic
to pope and preacher
love-god-love
so where is religion
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AG,
These are matters that impinge upon the sovereignty of the state. We all know what happened in the north east where foreign missionaries had a field day till Indira Gandhi got the wind of it in 1965? and banned them. It would be unwise to let alien interests undermine the sovereignty of a nation. I’m probably being a little paranoid here, moreover in India, it is everyones interest to undermine the nation, alien or otherwise!!
I agree on the right to practice and propagate a religion. I just think that the organization, funding and the hierarchy of such religions should begin and end with India and Indians (excluding even NRIs).
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Melange said: These are matters that impinge upon the sovereignty of the state.
Are you saying that Christian missionaries are encouraging violence and secession?
If such a missionary is found, they should be dealt with legally. But banning an entire class of institutions because of a couple of bad apples is not reasonable. Did we ban all MNC’s because of Enron?
I did not understand your point about Western identity. As long as these organisations and their supporters follow the rule of law in India, I couldn’t care less what identity they assume.
This restriction on “identity” and not allowing foreign money is needless except in cases where people are breaking the law. While I get rich due to tax sops and FDI in India, denying the same choice to people who happen to be more interested in religion (for whatever reasons) is hypocritical, discriminatory and impractical.
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Pardon the tangential and extremely self indulgent post but the mention of freedom to influence stirred me.
Why influence others? Why the revolutionary speak and streak? I once observed that I get these irrepressible urges to convince people whenever I think I am absolutely right and everybody else is absolutely wrong. And this syndrome keeps recurring often.
Is that a bad thing? I dont know. But I have often realized that I come back to revise my positions all the time and then I feel like a fool, irrespective of the background preparation(knowledge of theories) and my own estimation of my own smartness.
I donot easily trust intellectual convictions because intellectual pursuits are mostly about re-affirming already held beliefs and are rarely about testing the pre-held theories especially in the social “sciences” fields. calling them sciences is the greatest orwellian speak ever, right up there with advertisment talk.
If you make an evolutionary argument, I tend to agree, the urge to influence is fundamental to human nature. But then so is the urge to resist such an influence.
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Are you saying that Christian missionaries are encouraging violence and secession?
You got that right on both counts: The NE is a case in point.
The issue is not about a few bad apples. It is the very intent of organized religions. I don’t want to rehash what I have already written. Look above.
Western Identity: Historically the church has aligned itself with being the cradle/crucible of western civilization. It promotes and defends this idea vigorously. It’s professed goal is to spread its ideas to every part of the world. Now, nothing wrong with that till one realizes that the core of its belief is incredibly exclusive. This exclusion leads to conflict in societies entrenched in other belief systems. This exclusionary vision is based on a assumption of the superiority of western civilization. Again, Historically, Western imperialism and Christianity have worked in tandem. The very roots of colonization can be traced to the notions of exclusiveness in Christianity.
China knows this, and hence has worked to sever the ties of the Church with its population whilst encouraging the formation of a Chinese clergy independent of any external authority.
Business and religion are separate things. The analogy does not hold water. Any money that flows with the end goal of creating conflict in a society is not welcomed even in a banana republic.
Again, before you start throwing words and cliches:
“I agree on the right to practice and propagate a religion. I just think that the organization, funding and the hierarchy of such religions should begin and end with India and Indians (excluding even NRIs).”
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Are you saying that Christian missionaries are encouraging violence and secession?
You got that right on both counts: The NE is a case in point. The issue is not about a few bad apples. It is the very intent of organized religions. I don’t want to rehash what I have already written. Look above.
Western Identity: Historically the church has aligned itself with being the cradle/crucible of western civilization. It promotes and defends this idea vigorously. It’s professed goal is to spread its ideas to every part of the world. Now, nothing wrong with that till one realizes that the core of its belief is incredibly exclusive. This exclusion leads to conflict in societies entrenched in other belief systems. This exclusionary vision is based on a assumption of the superiority of western civilization. Again, Historically, Western imperialism and Christianity have worked in tandem. The very roots of colonization can be traced to the notions of exclusiveness in Christianity.
China knows this, and hence has worked to sever the ties of the Church with its population whilst encouraging the formation of a Chinese clergy independent of any external authority.
Business and religion are separate things. The analogy does not hold water. Any money that flows with the end goal of creating conflict in a society is not welcomed even in a banana republic.
Again, before you start throwing words and cliches:
“I agree on the right to practice and propagate a religion. I just think that the organization, funding and the hierarchy of such religions should begin and end with India and Indians (excluding even NRIs).”
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TS,
Yeah do what you want. Influence me. Or not. Or resist others influences.
But dont resist as a proxy for me. I dont need you to do that.
Again me/you doesnt mean etc.
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“I just think that the organization, funding and the hierarchy of such religions should begin and end with India and Indians (excluding even NRIs).”
And will this insulation make things better for people, in terms of religion?
So what if the existing religions within India start pushing bad things (say an oppressive caste system again – after all they have no competition in your scenario!)? And what of the people who belong to the wrong end of this hierarchy? Is there no hope for them to look outside?
“Business and religion are separate things.” They should be. But they never are. Religion permeates everything in life (expect for the commies – but they are coercing you not to believe which is a different thing, and we seen it doesnt work, see the soaring conversions to Christianity in China). Take a simple scenario. Indian software engineers toil for an MNC. The CEO of the MNC sells part of his stocks and contributes to his local church. May sound far fetched but am just trying to say how you cannot really separate an abstract all pervading thing like religion from other human activities.
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To Melange:
I don’t know about missionaries contributing to the NE conflicts.
Interesting views about the exclusionary belief of organized, Vatican-based Christianity etc. I don’t share your sense of distrust of them. Since we are both working with a different set of facts we have to agree to disagree.
But how come you give a pass to Indian Christians? Also, like I said, isn’t it possible to evaluate foreign missionaries on a case-by-case basis? Do you think all of them are somehow interlinked and cause trouble?
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Are all conversions voluntary? NO!!!
Does Hinduism exclude people based on their caste? YES!!!
Are there incidents where people got deceived and bribed into conversion? YESS!!!!
It’s all part of the same problem. When you ignoring some people in your group/society based on the color,caste and class, there is always someone out there to grab them. Look at the blacks who got converted to Islam over here in US. It’s not because they fell in love with ‘Islam’!! It’s more of rebellion against Christian society that failed to bring them into mainstream!
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Shettre,
What prevents a person deceived and bribed to stick with the religion which did that to him? After all there are choices. Maybe not in theocracy like Pakistan etc. where there is no option, but surely in India there is.
Converting ones religious belief due to rebellion is still a voluntary choice (maybe a reaction but still a personal decison). There may be a million reasons why people change their personal beliefs. So what?
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Anon Guy,
Sometimes, it’s too late for them to come back. Also, there is a sense of ’embarrassment’ in admitting your mistakes. In some case, they just hope that things would improve. There are many reasons. On the ther hand, I’ve also seen cases where people changed their mind and returned to Hinduism.
Frankly, I don’t give a rat’s behind if someone converts his religion as long as they don’t put down eachother. I was only pointing at some of realities out there.
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“And will this insulation make things better for people, in terms of religion?”
I think you have not understood my statements above. I’m not against any belief system, or, the right to propagate such systems. Religious ideas are one thing, and the use and interpretation of Ideas by a self appointed institution ( that too a foreign one) another. I’m just saying that it is a good idea to replace the institution by a completely indigenous one. Indian Christians with their own pope is any day a great idea than one sitting somewhere in the Vatican in cahoots with forces inimical to a secular and independent India.
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I think Conversion per se from Hindu system is violent and should be banned.The reason is simple. Hindus belive that all gods are same and all rivers go to the same ocean. But Abrahamic faiths like Islam and Christianity belive “my way ” or high way” . Abrahamic faiths do not recognise other faiths as legitimate. Hence Crusades,Jehads etc. let pope or the chief Mufti of Egypt proclaim that all faiths lead to the same God or Jesus and Rama or same or Allah and Krishna are same.
Hence conversion from Hinduismshould not be allowed since it is moving from Harmony based system to conflict based faiths. But if some one wants to escape from the suffocating Abrahamic uni-belief system that is fine. That is one can come back to Hinduism –since all men /women are born Hindus but forced in many cases to follow Islam or Cristianity due to compulsions of their family /Church/Imam etc
rvaidya
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Tamil christians in bangalore have fanatical hatred .They are divorced from their milieu.Catholicism is the worst terrorist ideology,the church the most dangerous terrorist organanisation.It kills local culture.Look at its impact in South America.The Church acts as spies of their western masters forming a separate block to do the bidding of their masters.They are nothing but slaves.They are anti-national.BR Ambedkar rejected christianity.Before independence,the christians identified union jack with jesus.
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Basically the problems is that of excluvisivist religions versus inclusivist ones–Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Zoorastrianism, Jainsim are inclusive. The do not go around converting people nor do they believe that they alone have the absolute truth like the religions originating in Palestine, namely, Christianity, Judiasm and Islam, which believe they alone contain the truth and that others are in darkness.
Now many outcastes of Hinduism became Muslims and Christians over the course of history.
It is true missionaries prey on the poor–that is why they are missionaries and believe that only they can save people.
How about Hindus do more to help the oppressed people instead of alienating them–how about Hindus give to charities and thereby show by example to the missionaries that they are ready to help needy regardless of religion unlike Christian missionaries who only help Christians?
Only then will they be able to stop missionaries from preying on the poor and taking advantage of their ignorance.
I have seen many poor families educate their children through missionary funds–can the poor be blamed for this?
Perhaps Hindus need more of a social and civic consciousness if they are to combat missionaries.
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While I beleive that faith is a personal matter,it needs to be understood that not all the methods adopted by Christian missionaries are above board.
If it indeed is true that faith is a personal matter, how does one justify the “Ummah”? This is a very political idea, the idea that Muslims are a nation with political needs different from other communities.
Is’nt what Nehru said relevant today:” Civilisations,like empire fall not so much because of the strength of the enemy outside as through the weakness and decay within”.This is the lesson we learn from the Incas and the Mayas who were sitting ducks for Christian violence.Consider this in light of the fact that today, South America has some of the largest populations of Roman Catholics.The question is: in the face of Christian aggression, did the Incas ,Mayas,Red Indians,Aborigines have any defence.Do we even have an idea as to what was effaced of the face of the earth, the culture and genius of an entire race?
I am not justifying violence by Hindu groups.But does not a genuine Hindu rage occasionally express itself in violence leading to a ” law and order” problem?
I genuinely feel that the “Forward Castes” themselves have done little for their untouchable brethren.Christianity feeds on this exclusion.
Hindu society needs to awake to the threat of Christian missionaries and come out not with a knee jerk response of violence against churches and Christians,but with a thorough reform to be more inclusivist.
For the missionaies ,those days are past when they had armies backing their activities.In any case,
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Violence by anyone is bad
Conversion by anyone into any religion is equally bad and should be banned
Per Sanatana dharma – Swadharme Nidhanam Shreyah Paradharmo bhayaavahah…. encountering even death while practising one’s one dharma (loosely translated – religion) is better than others
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Not having been convinced about the existence of god, religion to me is greatest of the self-deceptions and greatest of the addictions of the human mind. Salvation, heaven, hell, birth without conception, resurrection, ascension to heaven, god scripting a book without the vision beyond 7th century Bedouin mental frame, conversions in the vein ‘my god is greater than yours or your god is no god’ – all this is utter nonsense. If at all, human kind needs an all embracing religion without god, obviating the need for conversions; perhaps a visionary like Buddha could conceive one such more than two thousand years ago. But that’s, of course, utopian. Reality is that religion is an affliction, conversion – one of its worst symptoms.
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Making interreligious dialogue perhaps more difficult than it need be, those of us interested in the religious domain tend to miss the obvious: that we share an interest in the same domain. Our intra-domain differences, I submit, are dwarfed by the distance from our planet to others…such as the planet of the stock market enthusists. For more, if you are interested, pls see my post. http://deligentia.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/missing-the-obvious-in-religious-discussion-something-we-have-in-common/
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