The role of war in molding a region and its people has long been debated. The blood and gore of violent conflict, the deaths and injuries, the subterfuge and suspicion of combat, the curfews, scarcities and rations, the resulting nationalism and patriotism etc, are all seen to play a part in how societies emerge and evolve after the guns go silent.
The tough ruggedness of North Indians, for instance, is generally attributed to the skirmishes which that part of the country has weathered over centuries. Is the relative lack of aggression among South Indians because we have been cut off from such savagery? Would we have been different had we gone through similar strife? For better or for worse?
These are old questions, and the historian Ramachandra Guha approaches one of them in The Hindu Sunday magazine:
“Malavalli has been untouched by war for the past 200 years; so, in fact, has the whole of South India. This fact needs to be more carefully pondered by professional historians as well as by ordinary citizens.
“For, of which other part of India, or indeed of the world, could one say that two centuries have passed since the cannons boomed and the tanks roared? In this respect we South Indians have been very fortunate indeed…
“Of all the regions of the world, perhaps only Oceania has been as lucky as South India…
“Of all the regions of India and the world, only we in the South have been exempt for so long from the horrors of war and civil strife.”
Read the full column here: The luck of the south
ignoring of course, the Kaveri riots, the Telengana riots, the Maoists, the LTTE problems, the Moplah rebellion (during British times) and the German bombardment of the Madras Refinery during WWI….
Of course these are petty slapfests compared to WWII (as a whole), the US Civil War, the Arab Israeli wars, and closer home, the Kashmir insurgency, the Punjab insurgencies, the North East insurgencies and any number of Naxalite uprisings…
This is old hat of course, but feels nice to be reminded once in a while.
what i am wondering is to which theory, is this fuzzy point a data point?
something is going on only i dunno what. ragu dont write nothing for nothing.
:) :)
*puts on his ayyo paapa mukha*
North subcontinentals do seem to be more tribal and closed to social progress than South Indians. What group you belong to seems to be the most important thing. As a group they seem to follow an honour system in common with pakistan, afghanisthan, iraq etc.
South Indians on the other hand seem to be more forward thinking. As a group their attitude is more in line with east asian countries. And yes they are less truculent and more progressive.
If you disagree strongly with the above – go on, flame on.
Depends on how you define a war. The last definitive wars in India were the Anglo Mysore wars ( 1766-1799) and the Anglo-Maratha wars (1775-1818). I wonder what wars were fought after that specific to the northern regions and could be counted as WARS. Well the other thing is that mine is a pathetic google inspired knowledge whereas the Historian has other sources to his information !:)
The gene pool up north is far more corrupted than in the south where Coorgis are the only non-southindians having british blood flow in them. Let us leave them out of this debate.
Northern India was often invaded by tuscan raiders and tribes from Khitai, in the beginning before the Moghuls swept all of Northern India. The result is what you see today. North Indians who look like Italians, Turks, Greeks, Spartans and others with Mediterranean features. The aggressive streak too has been passed on through the generations.
Nehru in his “Discovery of India” commented that average north indians are more aggressive, rubble rousing when compared with average south indians because of long oppressive Muslim rule in the north.
This is true.
But south Indians have qualities which are more desirable if peace prevails. I started my career in Bangalore some 20 years back, and what I can vouch for is, average south Indian is more gentemanly, decent. South Indians are more traditional, respectful of culture. They are more hardworking, maintain traditional life style.
Its always memorable when invited to visit a South Indian friend’s home.
North Indians were like South Indians prior to 1000 AD. But they changed as they had to stand up for their existance.
Protima Konar/Connecticut/Kolkata.
Gaby,
Your googling just confirmed what Mr. Guha said in his article:
“The west of India was conquered after Tipu and before Ranjit Singh. It was in 1818 that the Peshwas were finally defeated, and the city of Pune came under British occupation.”
So
Defeat of Tipu = part of the anglo mysore wars (the real anglo mysore war anyway, no one in the south put up a real challenge to the Brits after tipu).
Defeat of the Peshwas = part of the anglo peshwa war.
Anyway – maybe you should read the full article before googling :)
This is a fascinating theory and one would tend to agree with Guha. The hardships and challenges associated with war does mould the evolution of a region and its populace. The benign nature of the average Southie may be somewhat misplaced in the otherwise aggressive environment that we live in.
And thank God for that!
AG- the article in question talks of uprisings and bloodshed but is that war? The Indopak wars were along a limited border and affected UP, MP and Bihar as much as it did the south and then the 1971 war affected Bengal most of all. Channamma and Sangolli Rayanna were in the third decade of the 18th century, Alluri Sita Rama Raju in the beginning of the last century none of them wars but battles and bloodshed nevertheless and all less than 200 years. I still cant see the WARS in the Northern part of the country that have seemingly influenced the personality of people and communities- the Wars brother the Wars? There is emerging evedence on the releveance of forgiveness and reconciliation in shaping society but the combo of the Hindu and Mr Guha arent very well known for original thots or are they!
BTW the last recorded war in Sweden was in the early part of the 19th century and how has that shaped the Swede. The Belgian is portrayed as confused, bipolar and unsure- after the Napoleanic wars and two world wars. Am I going anywhere with this! I think not. well there it is a string of thots and I am no fashionable historian :)
As for the timid Southie have anybody tried to get into a public transport bus in Chennai or lately into an autorich in Bangalore or ever tried to overtake a truck driven by a Malayalee driver ? I dont like generalisations at all!
Its about Southies as a people/group as opposed to irrelevant/touristy individual experiences. The big picture.
Live and interact in North India and then in South India. Say for a few years. Then you will know the difference.
Morever there is constant interaction (after all this is one country), and some people are bound to pick up the bad practices of others. After all there are a few b*****ds everywhere. The rudeness of the autodrivers of Bangalore are for example a relatively new phenomenon. Maybe a reaction to the uncouth clientele from the north they have to ferry.
gaby,
Your book/google knowledge is quite impressive, on par with a historian I guess!
About North India and wars. Even during the world wars, the British recruited a large portion of their cannon fodder from the Northern parts of India. I remember reading somewhere, more Indian sepoys died in the 2nd world war than any other country the British recruited from! Indians also made up the bulk of the INA who fought on the side of the Axis. Of course this would include people from what is now Pakistan too.
I wonder how many South Indians were recruited and died in the world wars. I bet it isnt a large number even counting whoever the Brits deemed as ‘martial races’ in the South.
Guys,
You should all read Pravin Benjamin’s
Da Vijay Code: The Exit of the Nehrus.
It is a brilliant exposition of India’s north south issues
Eventhough war did NOT directly take place in South Indian soil for the greater part of the past 200 years, the social upheaval in terms of upliftment of the backward castes questioned every possible belief that existed in the society – this per se can be considered to be a great challenge.
Apart from this, almost 50% of ordinary soldiers in the INA were Tamils – most of ’em were indentured labourers who were working in Burma, Singapore, Malaysia. The top management of the INA was also dominated by the Tamils.
One of the reasons why you will find the name “bose”, “subhash” commonly used in Southern TN – this will be widely used among the members of the “Thevar caste” since they were recruited by “Muthuramalinga Thevar” to fight in the INA !
Adding on, it is a shame that most of these soldiers were NOT given Indian citizenship since they were not in India at the time of independence and Nehru always ignored/hid the contribution of the “violent” movement !
***
I hope some of the articles and links try to dispel at least a part of the myth about “martial theory” and the related issues.
References:
Tamil codified martial life:
http://www.tamilnation.org/forum/sivaram/920601lg.htm
Contribution of Tamils to INA:
“More than 75 per cent of the INA soldiers were Tamils, who migrated to Burma in pursuit of a job.”
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mp/2004/08/02/stories/2004080201760100.htm
Anita Pfaff:
http://www.hindu.com/2005/12/22/stories/2005122208190400.htm
You would be able to find that many of them were Tamils:
http://www.s1942.org.sg/s1942/indian_national_army/freedom.htm
south india itself is not united.only taamils are united,even telegu too are!
while karnataka is internally(Im from gadag) is divided!Mysore-banglore-mangalore kannadigas hate uttara kannada ppl.it is my experience.food,clothings everything is different.
Only ppl who are really different from fellow south indians are malyalis.may be kodagu ppl too.these 2 should better be merged into north india esp to somewhere near delhi.
Malyalis are very different in their culture from others.I felt it weird to understand that apart from wearing dhothis ,malyalis are totally different in culture.their cleanliness,education all are good.
we(karnataka),needs such a unified culture,that we can survive!
sheane. dude! hw can u say such a thing. i agree with u that ppl in karnataka are not united bt ppl in north india arent united either. hw can u put urself down like that. saying kerala ppl belong sumwhere near delhi. dont u have any self respect at all?
2000 years of recorded history of South India is pretty bloody – South India was divided into warring kingdoms who constantly fought one another and also invaders from North and often from across sea. And there is no shortage of strong warlike races in South India.
Also wars in South India were much more bloodier than in North India because concepts of Dharmayuddha was not strictly followed even before Islamic invasions. Hence plunder, massacres and arson were fairly common in South Indian wars even before arrival of foreigners like Turks and Englishmen.
Ancient Tamil poetry is full of songs about military exploits of South Indian kings and also about warlike races. Cheras under Senguttuvan successfully invaded and plundered North India and Southern dynasties like Chalukyas, Cholas and Rashtrakutas often fought invaders from North with great successes and even invaded and devastated North.
It was Cholas of South who developed blue water navy and invaded Indonesia and Malaysia and collected tributes from kingdoms as far as Cambodia.
First Islamic invasion into India was done across sea but was beaten back by Chalukyas – and note that Arabs did not attempt any more invasion by sea into India!
Southerners were more successful in resistance to Islamic invasions than North India. Under Kannada empire of Vijayanagara, Muslim expansion into South was thwarted and even after fall of Vijayanagara, Muslims could not attain the kind of power they had in North and Islamic impact on South India was considerably less. So it does proves military prowess superior to the supposedly aggressive North Indians (after all what aggression are some speaking about, if you cant even defend your homeland from being ravaged!! he he).
Note – Turks were so terrified of the savagery committed by revengeful Vijayanagara troops that they entered into an agreement with Vijayanagara emperor that in future wars would be waged in humane style!!!!!!!! Imagine the rage of Southerners if Turks had begged them to be more humane!!!!
Hindu Raja of Calicut fought and resisted for 100 years the Portuguese attempts to seize Malabar coast and Marthanda Varma of Travancore defeated Dutch and destroyed their power for ever in India.
Do you know that first war between Indians and British was fought by a Nayar chief near Tellicherry named Kurangoth Nayar? THis man fought for 11 years (1704 to 1715) and forced British to come to terms. But how many know about this episode?
British fought Thevars of Western Tamil Nadu for 50 years (1750-1800) and even after that Thevars kept up a series of disturbances till independence and that is why they were labelled as a Criminal Tribe. Also dont forget Pazhassi Raja of Kerala, Sangolli Rayanna of Karnataka who fought British for fourteen and five years respectively.
Far before 1857, South Indians waged heroic freedom struggles but thanks to ignorant intelligentsia, their sacrifices are rarely know at all India level.
Up to 25 percent of South Indians may be classified as belonging to warrior castes and they fought extremely well. But their misfortune is that they are not mentioned in military history of India which still suffer from colonial bias of North Indian (especially Sikh-Gurkha) orientation.
War waged by LTTE under Prabhakaran proves that war like spirit of Southerners if far from dead. Factional clannish violence and Naxal violence in Andhra also proves this point that Southerners’s taste for violence is far from being extinguished.
PS – Those who say that South India does not know what is fires of war should go to some university library with books on South Indian history and spent some time reading. That will save them from myths and pseudo-history.
Thanks.
“First Islamic invasion into India was done across sea but was beaten back by Chalukyas – and note that Arabs did not attempt any more invasion by sea into India!”
To come by sea you need to be near a sea. If not you come by land.
“Up to 25 percent of South Indians may be classified as belonging to warrior castes and they fought extremely well. But their misfortune is that they are not mentioned in military history of India which still suffer from colonial bias of North Indian (especially Sikh-Gurkha) orientation. ”
Rubbish, have you not known about one of the finest – The Madras Regiment.
And The Coorgi’s.
The Sikhs have Conquered Tibet and Afghanistan and ruled. I should know , my forefathers were among them.
“go to some university library with books on South Indian history and spent some time reading. That will save them from myths and pseudo-history.”
Yes sit in your armchair. Leave the rest to the Professionals.
and Finally
“JITENDRA Says:
10 March 2013 at 12:15 pm
I am maharashtrian, neither southie or northie. But still as far as to marry my daughter or son I will prefer southies. South Indians are
“more civilised, honest, have good civic sense & good tolerence, are peace loving , never double speaking.”
You can read their faces easily and beleive them. Crime rates, female infanticides, honor killings are less common in south india.
Ask The Sevadars OF BBMP
@the colonel Says:
11 March 2013 at 7:17 am
I am not speaking about regiments but about military history and military tradition of South India.
As for Sikhs conquering Tibet and Afghanistan, yes it is true and without doubt a glorious episode in Indian history but even glorious were the struggles conducted by Sikhs against Mughals under Guru Gobind Singh and Banda Bairagi along with the bloody and grim war fought between Sikh Misls and Afghans in eighteenth century.
“Yes sit in your armchair. Leave the rest to the Professionals.”
Btw – do you belong to one of these professionals? Does not look like one….
he he he
thanks.
Dear Rajan,
i am looking for two rajan’s
1. he was a brilliant architect, in madras. he has vanished.
2. The second studied in PSG College Of Tech, Coimbatore 1968-1972 or 1969-1973. His father worked with Neyvilli Lignite Corp.
Do Help If You Can.
Thanks.
Definitely absence of wars and turmoil has helped South India retain its culture and a more peaceful attitude. N Indians for historic reasons were forced to become more aggressive and hardened due to the constant wars and invasions that came through the NW into India. Also, many ancient temples and other Hindu religious places in Naarth India were either destroyed or built over such as the Kashi Vishwanath temple by the Shahi mosque or the temple at Ayodhya.