Shabana Azmi, five-time national award winning actor turned parliamentarian, in an interview with Karan Thapar‘s Devil’s Advocate for CNN-IBN:
# “I could not buy a flat in Bombay because I am a Muslim. If Shabana Azmi and Javed Akhtar cannot buy a flat because of their religion, what are we talking about? The same happened to actor Saif Ali Khan.”
# “Indian Muslims are in a safer place because the Indian Muslim has a stake and space in Indian democracy…. It’s a very huge thing that we are a part of a democracy and Indian Muslims can aspire to become a Shah Rukh Khan or an Irfan Pathan or the President of India, and that makes the Muslims far more hopeful and far less in despair than in other parts of the world.”
# “Politicians promote a stereotypical image of the Muslim community. They don’t allow moderate, liberal Muslim voices to be heard. Whether it is Atal Bihari Vajpayee, whether it is Indira Gandhi, whether it is anybody, the minute it is a Muslim question, you will get the dariwaralas and only all the maulvis to speak.”
# “The polity is unfair to Muslims. So what happens is that only token gestures are made, but real issues are never addressed, as the Rajinder Sachar Committee report shows.”
Also read: ‘Indian polity is being unfair to Muslims’
It is a fact that Muslims worldwide assimilate poorly with other communities, and Hindu’s are far more adaptable.
There is a nice article in today’s TOI by Swaminathan Iyer, about why India should hold a plebiscite in Kashmir. If there is a class of Muslims who don’t feel they belong to the Idea of India, then let us not rule them by force. Over a period of time, this will be far more healing than the way things are at this time. We currently are in a state of war with Kashmiri people with even their moderate leaders like Omar Abdullah, talking about Kashmiri Identity as seperate from an Indian Identity.
But, It is also true that a Muslim may not be able to find an adobe in all the localities in all cities. But, that’s true for lot of other communities too! For example, in the heart of Bangalore, there is a Jain society which bought a large piece of land and constructed a flat system, exclusively for Jains. Other communities are not welcome.
This ghettoizing is not unique to India, but certainly isn’t good if we can’t make religious and cultural Identities immaterial in a generation or two as some developed countries have achieved.
It reminds me one incident from the past: Maulana Azad, the face of Indian nationalist Muslims, was from Calcutta. But even a Dr. Bidhan Roy, or Nehru could not guarantee his election from anywhere in West Bengal (or Delhi) , and Azad had to stand election from Rampur, predominantly Muslim constituency in UP. Were Dr. ROy, nehru happy? Obviously no, but that’s how it was, and I am afraid it IS today (guess its worse).
MJ Akbar recently wrote (Lalu opposing ban on SIMI), AR Antulay was made CM of Maharashtra- he blew it. And Maharashtra will NEVER see another Muslim CHief Minister.
Muslims not getting house is not limited to Mumbai alone- its almost everywhere in India. I am afraid, she will have similar situation in Calcutta, even after 30 + years of CPIM rule. The Telegrah reported an newsitem last year where they showed Muslim Students from rural West Bengal were not getting house on rent in Hindu areas, and in some cases had to use Hindu name and eventually were told to leave when landlord found it out. CPIM will not tell house owners to rent Muslim students.
But, a John Abraham, Khusbant Singh, a Jain, Persi can buy house anywhere.
Now, we cannot assume everybody as “communal” here, because they vote for every politial party- Cong, BJP, CPIM, SP..you name it.
There should be an honest dialog why a John Abraham will not have problem, while a Sabana Azmi is facing it. We must not put it under wraps. Unfortunately, our political establishment, media is not interested in a dialogue. They are interested in rhetoric of “secular” vs “Communal”, which has different meaning to mass.
Harkol>>There is a nice article in today’s TOI by Swaminathan Iyer, about why India should hold a plebiscite in Kashmir.
The ‘plebiscite’, if any shd be done all over India- whether Kashmir belongs to India. No more surrender of Land- no more partition what Nehru did.
@Tathgatha Mukherji,
I am not in favour of surrender of land or partition but, the world over, referendums are held for people to decide who, or what constitution rules them. You seem to be suggesting a case where the people should decide who their constitution would govern. In the method you are suggesting, it is highly likely that the vote would be unanimous. In that case, what is the purpose of any referendum?
If Shabana Azmi(in bold font) and Javed Akhtar(inf bold font) could not buy a flat because of their religion, and the same happened to actor Saif Ali Khan(in bold font), and they did not take legal action aginst those who discriminated them because of their religion, then
what are we talking about?
If all these luminaries with all the weight of their name, their experience in forums and NGOs, with their political and cultural influence fail to put their faith in the system and fail to take recourse in the system and instead choose to perpetuate the culture of publicity and public grievance, then, what are we talking about?
If even such people, instead of going to the courts, take the short cut of trial by media, where the allegation is unsubstantiated and the verdict is by insinuation, then what are we talking about? This is the same thing as riots and flag burning, only done in a more classier environment and with more polish.
And why didn’t thapar ask her if she went to the courts?
parliamentarian to boot.
So, are they still living on rent? Amazing. Wonder how Salman Khan, Aamir Khan and Shah Rukh got houses.
If these luminaries cannot get an apartment in Bombay, I am sure all other Muslims are living on the streets – nobody owns houses is it?
Churumuri, anyway its your pet topic, carry on…
“Politicians promote a stereotypical image of the Muslim community. They don’t allow moderate, liberal Muslim voices to be heard. ”
Shabana had access to Karans Thapars show; did she use that platform to speak against the clergy? Please tell me that she did…These luminaries have more access to media than perhaps anybody in India. Yet, none of these film industry luminaries speak against those who supposedly hold that religion hostage.
When was the last time Ms Shabana spoke against the clergy after that infamous TV episode?
Tarlesubba:
If Shabana Azmi and Javed Akhtar could not buy a flat because of their religion and the same happened to actor Saif Ali Khan, why did they not take legal action?
Right, they should have taken legal action. You’re right, with their weight of name, clout and NGO experience, they are in a better position than most, to pursue legal action.
The points mentioned in the article are actually quite true. We do observe that there is an anti-muslim bias among most people when it comes to selling, or even renting out property. But if heavyweights like If Shabana Azmi and Javed Akhtar and Saif Ali Khan do not take legal action (as opposed to trial by media), then they will have only themselves to blame when the present situation continues in the coming years..
Let’s see now – Saif Ali Khan’s mother is Hindu and his father is Muslim. Why did he choose to assume a Muslim name and not a Hindu name? It is true that his identity is ambiguous – he shows no sign of being an exclusivist Muslim. Then why not go all the way and assume a Hindu name as well? Besides what do you do if you are vegetarian and your neighbour insists on cooking meat all the time and cutting a goat live on Bakrid? Isn’t that disgusting? But natural.
While I agree muslims sound like being less adaptable, it must have been a cowardly action by those who refused a place to Shabana – if her claim is true. How can one take statistical and general views and rub it on a person when we come face to face with them as people? I would never do that to any muslim I met or anyone else.
Its of course hard to believe that she was refused by all. There are enough builders who would sell to anyone if they get the money. She probably approached some very specific people…
Shabana could not buy a flat in Mumbai because the building society or the flat owner did not want to sell one to her. Why? May be her background check revealed some undesirable traits marking her out to be a not so good tenant. It is only a commercial transaction and the sellers did not want to bring down the value of their property. I thnk Shabana should introspect why she could not get a flat. It is also NAMAT-BATAM effect! People don’t want a high-profile activist in their colony. May be…who can tell…
@Harkol
Its nice you brought out the situation in Bangalore.
Its is sad to see the old architecture in Basavanagudi area disappear and give way to new flats. It is shocking to know that old fasioned Bengaloor lifestyle with a jackfruit tree in the garden and expanded metal mesh for windows and doors and most of all the people who loved it is not welcome in the place where it belongs most!
Clearly Secularism and communal harmony in our country is a farce. The real situation is a disgrace to those words!
Muslim community by their own acts and conduct has earned such a reputation that no peace loving person would like to be their neighbors. Call it discrimination or racism, I would rather live in a peaceful environment than among people known for barbarism and poor hygiene
i’d first like to state i’m also a minority; also belong to a ‘semitic religion’; have read the quran and found it useful but i denounce what’s going on in india – because jihad is ‘recommended’ by the prophet only in the scenario that believers are hindered from worship. or if there’s oppression and tumult in the land – now, is the bomb planter not causing tumult? for his own people too?
Allah also tells the prophet to tell people that moderation and restraint is best. so why all this terrorism? i feel hindus have not yet given us minorities any solid reason to feel disgruntled (apart from the mad fringe that riots, rapes nuns etc.) its much the contrary as ms azmi herself admits.
she has contradicted herself –
if indian muslims have it better than muslim nations WORLDWIDE then pls tell me how the indian polity has let us down.
why are some mad musl making life miserable for the rest of the nation via terrorism (i was in a delhi bus yesterday rakhi day; cops were stopping all buses asking everyone to look under their seats; almost no one did; its so alien to the phlegmatic dna of indians all this urban panic business.)
did she mention this point? instead of denouncing the maulvis – i mean what age is she living in – she shld have vented all spleen at her disposal at these terrorists; said she can’t get a house to whatever degree due to these fellows; reminded her community they have it better than the rest of the muslim world; asked pakistani bollywood stars to show a pro-indian face vis a vis kashmir etc.
whatever happened to ask not what your country can do for you…?
i’m not saying everything is perfect.
i also live in fear of the rioteer (hell, my family and i’ve experienced hindu mob vandalism); i also fear the vhp, rss, modi etc; i also fear that hindus don’t really trust us – i mean i cld go on with a list of my fears.
but the other side of the pic is that no autowallah or bus wallah has made a face when i ask to be dropped to church; hindus are readier to venerate other religions than we are; there’s much interest in what minorities can contribute especially nowadays; there’s much we can do here in terms of nation building, self expression – whatever floats your boat. this is a great country to be in, i speak from experience.
shabhana shld not have said all that. she shld have used all her force to ask the young lads and girls to become like pathan srk etc.
i speak as a minority – let us try to appreciate the majority community and see where that takes this country. everyone is equally responsible here for where we are. how many crores are lost in a blast and the riot, again? all that money cld feed so many.
i’ve been following what mr t mookerji has been saying in his comments in this blog. some of his comments i agree with. i wonder if its true that you have to look at the muslim question in the context of the creation of east bengal and pakistan. if more land is lost and the unrest doesnt die down the equation is going to be destabilised for everyone – across the board.
There is one God; He is great and I’m a believer. i love muslims; and hindus.
Fact – God loves India.
Thapar,who asks all kind of irritating question without letting the interviewee answer,shoud have asked the name of the society that refused the flat to her.Shabana belongs to a set of creatures who are always on the lookout for issues to take to the street.How come she just let it go,without even a token protest in front of the housing society.Her husband can take on Narendra Modi on the kiiling of a criminal .The how come these two never made any demostrations/press briefings/case on this matter?It’s highly likey she is lying,like a typical muslim.
i’m no prophet or anything but i stand by my last sentence – Almighty God does love this country (and i’m going to be controversial here) us 1 billion polytheists… interpret this last phrase how you will
is everyone going to hate me now?
Think.
East Timor: Conflict with Roman Catholics
Spice Islands: Conflict with minority Christians
Eastern Phillipines: Violent Jihadi movement on a upswing
Thailand: Beheading Budhdhists is becoming a pastime
China: Sinchiang Muslims want a separate province, recently killed 16 Chinese policemen
India: No need to say anything
Sudan: Violent conflict continues
Nigeria: Northern Muslims want Sharia Law
Mauritania: Islamists fight on between Muslim Northerners and Non-Muslim Southerners
Russia: Chechnya
Former Yougoslavia: Bosnian Muslims and Serbs kill each other
Albania: Fight with non-muslim Serbs and Greeks
Now look at what is the state of minorities in Muslim controlled countries across the world:
Be it Malaysia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia.
Think.
” I could not buy a flat because I am a Muslim.” It is nothing but hypocrisy! Do builders ask you to what community you belong ? They want MOney and if you are prepared to pay it finished. Such statements by elite people is nothing but misleading. I think we should stop at that stage.
but indian scenario is more complex – there are cultural and linguistic ties. someone will cry if someone else bleeds. if not this generation, the next might be less cynical and more involved.
i say we get our heads together and find a way out of this kashmir knot. then it will be mouth-shut time.
shyodha, I’ll vote for u
I being a hindu, honestly admit that we have a slave mentality and unless we overcome this we will remain as slaves forever. What is ‘indian scenario’? It is the Brahmins who have reached us to this state.
tarlesubba>>If even such people, instead of going to the courts, take the short cut of trial by media, where the allegation is unsubstantiated ……… with more polish.
You have hits bulls eye. Rights of private property is very basic rights in (semi-)capitalist, democratic legal framework that we have in India (or in the West). Courts have UPHELD rights of a building association to choose its members, limit it to particular linguistic/religion/sect etc. That’s why she is not going to Court.
But there is a larger question of social division between Hindus and Muslims. Answer lies in public perception , accomodation, mutual sucpicion….. For example, Christians do not face similar situation because of public perception.
There are 100s of big churches in India dotting every metro/big cities. However, you will never hear any communal riot breaking between Christians and Hindus when Hindu religious pocessions pass thro’ main thoroughfare infront of the Church. But, majority of communal riots in India break out when Muslims object to Hindu religious procession before Mosques.
Also, food habit is a big issue. You will find rarely any Hindu who will accept cooking beef as acceptable in your next door. I myself had some problem in Bangalore in late 80s as we eat fish.
As Naipaul showed, Muslim elite in India never thought they belonged to India- they came from Central Asia, middle east. For the rest of converted from Indian origin, they always try to highlight their difference from their parent religion. I think this is the root cause of this social division.
Elite Indian “secular” fundoos however prefer sitting in JNU thinking all problems will cease to exist, and unwilling to initiate a dialog.
Guys think yourself as Indian first and Indian’s last.
The Constitution of the Country is a historical blunder. Shabana thinks she is a Muslim while she talks and narrows down to that narrow parochialism.
Constitution recognises as Pseudo secular Indians. Hindus, Muslims and Christians…ooopss Sikhs,Jains and Budhists are a forgotten lot…..Founding so called step fathers might have been napping when the constitution was written..
In addition we have a rotten caste system Gowda,Lingayat,Kuruba,Iyer,Iyengar,Patel,Patil,Pillai,Mukherjee,Banerjee as our Surnamess…Alll castiest way of depicting fragmented Indian society.
To top it all Linguistic differences are used to flame passion of hatred.
The guiding principle of uniting the country is lost in this vicious cycle of narrowing down to the gene of splits…
A revolution is required in this Country. I dont think that is going to happen either. Politicians have created a FIXED DEPOSIT bank of various differences amongst the Indians.
The term secularism is misnomer of secularism is prevalent in this country. It should recognise Indian as an Indian. Not on the basis of Differences.
There is no political will to solve this mess. Now there is CIVIL War across the country either in Jammu,Kashmir,North East or Crime in the name of differences.
The founding Step fathers have messed it up.
I remember reading a report on a minor communal riot in UP some 4 or 5 years back. The Hindu family whose house was torched was in shock because their Muslim neighbor, their friend for decades, participated in the burning of their house. Gone was the decades of friendship!!
There is this Koranic doctrine that the surest way to get to heaven is by killing the unbelievers. And all of us non-Muslims are unbelievers! It is a mercy to kill us!!!
Ms Azmi ssems so carried away by the vanity of her activism that she spouts the same unverified nonsense that are used by the politician- businessman nexus she claims to fight. Reminds me of the saying by Orwell- a fanatic is one who having lost sight of the objective doubles the effort. Narcissism is no less a source of Fanaticism than religious fundamentalism. She should as suggested by commnets here visit Sharukh Khan’s Mannat and Salim Khan’s ( Her husband’s former partner in writing) Galaxy apartments.
Is she trying to insinuate that in her view the Non-Muslim Community is as damned as Modi ! With such generalisations she is as stupid in this comment as the ass calling himself the Shahi Imam ( In a Democratic Republic- no less) and the geriatric clowns of Nagpur.
One thing is for sure,
Shabana wont be able to rent flats from most commentors on this thread :)
gaby ur right
Did Shabana-ji try buying property in Kolkata? Definitely the Karats will help her out and she can be comfortable in the right (I mean, left) company.
Lets be fair about it. How many Muslim dominated localities will allow Hindu residents? In fact, even decent (in the sense they are the masters of their field, that is cinema) Muslims like Shabana will not find to live in Muslim ghettos easy. I don’t know where she lives right now. I had a detailed chat with a Muslim Taxi driver in Ahmedabad, this before the 2002 infamy, things broke down between the communities after that. And he’d say, “you will find a KHAAN SAAB (local goon), in each bylane you may try to enter in our areas. It’s hard living there.”
In Juhapura in Ahmedabad, which falls next to my locality and from where one of the recent A’bad blast masterminds was arrested, people, including government officials and police would not dare to enter in broad-day light. They would mob, burn vehicles and stab Hindu by-passers, if some local Muslim got killed in any accident. Bus routes had to be diverted through other areas, even as, Juhapura fell on a critical junction to Baroda and Mumbai highways. Modi’s regime dismantled most of the unlawful infrastructure there. There was a huge hue and cry, as illegal structure began being bulldozed down. Startling discoveries were made later. They had illegal power distribution installed throughout in Juhapure, where goons would charge the localites, instead of the Ahmedabad Electricity Company. A large amount of cables tracts and instruments were discovered. Things are better these days, and government and private institutions are moving in to help the local administration.
I wonder, what kind of effort have Shabana and her likes done to change this scenario. They selectively raise voice, only at the so-called Muslim human rights. So how could they expect the Mumbites to be unsuspecting about them? I’ve a stronger accusation to make here though as compared to that by Shabana. Leave aside Muslims, it’s a controversial issue, even Dalits may not easily get to live in posh Hindu areas. And I stand flabbergasted at this particular thing. Nothing to explain this, except we are still not over with the age-old wickedness. No Congress, no BJP, no RSS no social activism, no NDTV or Tahelka kind of journalism could make things brighter for Dalits, even after the passage of so many years.
Shabana,
If you want a flat in Bangalore do let me know. I have a three bed room flat which is vacant. I am a Hindu and will provide the house rent free for six months. Many of you who are commenting here are missing the context. Outlook article wrote how Muslims have to pay risk premium now This has nothing to with religion. Islam was there before Bombay blasts and Muslims never felt the discrimination. However after the blasts, society is exercising caution in renting to Muslims. Shabana has to do some soul searching and can not blame it on Mumbai. In fact unknown street urchin in the outlook has more wisdom than Shabana.. Yes !! Because of one man Muslims have to suffer. Instead of silently suffering they should come out of their suffering and shut down the imams who preach violence
Some cheddi commentors sure are raging to put all their muslim neighbours in their place.
For what? Percieved lack of hygiene, eating meat etc.? As if being Hindu makes one the cleanest, most hygienic, smartest looking people in the world.
Outside our country, India is more known for poverty and lack of basic hygiene and terrible living conditions than most other countries – the superior racial attitude is quite laughable.
The very same attitude shown by ‘dhariwala mullah’ type muslims and their followers, I guess.
Other than her minor resentment against Muslim clergies everything that spoke was politically correct and without conviction/ignorance. Let us admit the reality. Firstly, Islam (not muslim) is getting what it really deserves in west. It’s being called a militant, radical religion at its core, for what it’s own theology and religious history stands. Secondly, majority of the Muslim world (as the believers of any other religions) believe oudated moral definitions of dark ages, which is, not surprisingly, barbaric. Why can’t we have Shabana calling a spade a spade rather than using the same rhetoric of ‘misunderstanding of islam and muslims’? If Europeans/ Americans have a prejudice for muslims, that’s evolutionary response through experience. If you are not cautious of people who want to kill you, then your chances of survival goes down. And this evolutionary instinct is precisely what is driving non muslims to have a prejudice for muslims. Be it London or Mumbai. What we need is real muslim liberals and not the politically correct liberals like Shabana.
Abhi,
Majority on non-Hindus think the same about many Hindus and Hindu practices. So will you start condemning the religion you are born into or practise?
How did Shabana, Javed and Saif got fame? The 10% Muslim population saw their movies, adored them, and remaining India kept hating them!
Being named as intellectual Muslims, Shabana and Javed have some social responsibilty not to talk like this in public. Being such loud mouthed, both should have filed cases against religious discrimination against the people. Thas would have solved problem of millions of Muslims of India.
How did Sharukh buy a house? How did Abdul Kalam Azad became president of India?
I think the educated Muslim population should come out of their Muslim identity and join the main stream.
The first thing is to start with names:
Just a generation ago, it was very easy to identify a person’s caste by his name among so called “hindus”; Take now, “Ankit, Spoorti, aishwarya, raani, aakaash etc…” No where you can make out the caste based on names. Muslims should join this silent revolution, at least in India. At home you remain Muslim, when you are out on street, become Indian!
Just a generation ago, it was very easy to identity a peron’s caste looking at his face. By their Naamaas and Mudraas, it was possible to differentiate Brahmin, Lingaayat etc. Now, almost every one comes to work without any mudraas. Muslims should join this silent revolution, at least in India. At home you remain Muslim, when you are out on street, become Indian!
There is much more to write. It is response page. I will stop here.
it amazes me to read all these comments.. i am a british muslim and thank god for the country i was born and bred within , which does not distinguish on the basis of one’s religion. and they say India is secular – wake up and smell the roses sweethearts – i see nothing more than a bunch of racists – no different to those in places like pakistan or saudi – where people are segregated on the basis of religion. india is as secular as pakistan is liberal!!!
@ Anonymous, Spot on! Hindu practices does not make sense either. So are christian and Jewish. However I want to make a distinction between moderate and militant religions. Other religions may be stupid, but harmless. When it comes to islam, its not just moronic, but dangerous too. And that’s where the problem starts.
Because of Islam’s teaching of exclusivity and intolerance to other religions. How come no other religions face this problem?
I think she could not get a house, not becos she is a Muslim but bcos she is Shabana Azmi!!
People like her suffer from a Mughalai attitude where they think Muslims need to be pampered by Hindus, bcos they chose to grace this filthy country by staying here and not moving to their glorious Pakistan!
Abhi,
Hindu religion might not be dangerous to you. Ask the same questions of the ‘scheduled castes and tribes’ and such. Overall the caste system hasnt gone away from hinduism – and the ones who get the wrong end of this stick feel that it is moronic and dangerous. Added to all politicians use the caste card to harm the country (especially people like Lalu). And the same sense of injustice felt for the lower castes is also exploited by Christian and Islamic missionaries and other convert-masters. The enduring caste system is a big problem for Hinduism. And exclusive to it. It makes our nation weaker, it allows others to exploit us and keep us disunited and mediocre.
Are we willing to accept this basic weakness from the core and ready to throw away the yoke of the caste system in Hinduism and replace it with something better? Personally in our life (including all interactions with people of our caste and others) and oppose/reform it publicly when we get a chance? Otherwise how are we special compared to Shabana Azmi?
Evangelical Christians who are a major supporter of the overall war on terror, consider Hindus no better and will definitely extend the war if they see Hindus or India doing better economically or come in possession of important resources like oil.
Islamic terrorists and their sympathisers who are blinded by religion and consider everyone else their enemies should not be defended. But trying to show that everyone else is spotless and all united on one side doesn’t seem right either. And blindly attacking any statement made by someone because they are muslim – how does that make you any different from a dhariwala maulvi?
>>well said Anonymous Guy.
”Hindu religion might not be dangerous to you. Ask the same questions of the scheduled castes and tribes” – pls don’t expect a rational answer from this blog except some hate speech.
Anonymous Guy:
I agree 100% with your post above. Even today in Urban areas, among the so-called elite, we find people trying to cling on to their caste. About rural areas, the less said the better.
Read this scheme by the Government to promote Inter-caste marriages.
http://mutiny.wordpress.com/2006/09/15/a-penny-for-your-inter-caste-marriages-please/
A pretty good idea in my opinion.. It will simply destroy the goddamn concept of caste..
Can’t believe such a story.
I doubt the veracity of these statements that these famous actors and actress did not get flats in Hindu locality.
It is a pity that Shabhana Azmi who is very articulate did not use the show to criticize the fundamentalists. Just like Hindus are critical of the worst elements of Hindu culture like untouchability, the so called superiority of brahminism, sati system (which is practically non existent now), diabolical caste system, etc. why didn’t Azmi point out the problems of Islam?
kkr,
I think by and large most commentors in this blog are independent minded and rational. However there will always be a few who deeply hate something (maybe due to personal experience or indoctrination). And maybe the personal experiences are so strong that their hatred seems irrational.
An overwhelming majority of us non-muslim Indians feel some sense of animosity towards Muslims. Actually Islam in general. Many of us – especially in South India haven’t personally had problems with any particular muslim individual or lost anything in riots etc. – but what we are told at our homes, the stories of historic cruelty of Muslim invaders (as compared to the controlled and clever cruelty of the British) make us view muslims as a group with suspicion. Added to it the ghetto behaviour of many muslims doesnt make it any better. They view us with the same mistrust too.
And I assume some of them think that they as muslims are different from the others, and should herd together under their idiotic religious leadership instead of thinking for themselves, enjoying the rights/respecting the duties given by our constitution. And these few manage to keep the others quiet and compliant. This is my personal opinion from whatever little I have observed.
But think of it – this is the very same behaviour showed by evangelical christians or overtly religious people anywhere. And in that way at this point in time, in general hindus as a group in India are definitely less insular and more broad minded (I dont mean the RSS types who burn valentine cards and impose morality on others – I mean the general public).
There is a definite problem we have now in our society. And what Shabana said is one side of the problem. Of course she sees first what is directly effecting herself and extrapolating it as a larger problem.
She has said specifically that politicians are playing up the dhariwala maulvis – instead of relegating them to a minority and instead of encouraging liberal people like Shabana as spokespersons and people of influence among Muslims (BTW I am sure she is 100% more liberal minded than any of the commentors who seem to hate her as a muslim). That is a larger problem she is pointing out – at the polity.
What is wrong with that? Are our politicians right in doing so? If she finds it difficult to get a flat in Mumbai – what about countless other decent Muslims in India (yes – decent and muslim – there are many muslims even in our Indian army who have fought and given their lives for motherland against pakistan and china), what is wrong if she raises this issue. And the wierd thing is it is not just criminals like Lalu who are doing it, but even people like Manmohan Singh and Atal Bihari Vajpayee. The hate spewing maulvi and mullah types are the enemy, their influence in public affairs within the muslim community has to be reduced by any means and our politicians are doing the exact opposite for votes. Muslims can be good muslims without any India-hating Maulvi or Mullah. Such people and their influence have to be eliminated for the good of everyone.
See what Shabana is trying to say in the article.
Trying to laugh away her comments or attack them and shut her up just because she is a muslim is just intolerant behaviour shown by the likes of nazi fascists or chinese communists or muslim theocracies.
The problem with hate mongers – Hindu or Muslim – is you never know who their next target will be.
If we dont want to think rationally on national issues and think that blind hatred and confrontation of anyone and everyone who belongs to a group (even someone like shabana in this case who has bought up a valid issue – which has nothing to do with the koran or some stupid muslim religious law), then I guess we should just jail her for making these “anti-national” statements.
But Bhamy,
She was pointing at the evil work being done by maulvis and the way such paper tigers are being supported by our politicians.
What more do you want from her? Disown her religion?
BTW Diabolical caste system is the main and only bad thing about Hinduism. The other token things you mention are past and present side effects.
Anonymous Guy:
BTW I am sure she is 100% more liberal minded than any of the commentors who seem to hate her as a muslim
So true. The following famous poem comes to mind
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn’t a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
Vinay,
I think that poem is BS :)
Here’s the reason:
http://churumuri.wordpress.com/2008/02/05/parochialism-offers-an-easy-resistance-to-change/#comment-70417
I am bigoted in my own way :)
Sara,
“i am a british muslim”
And one who draws conclusions about a place like India based on a few comments by some anonymous commentors on a blog.
Good you werent born in India :)
Indian citizens (dubbed “outsiders”) can not buy a house in Kashmir, due to Kashmiriyaat (constitution-sanctioned discrimination). How about that?
verybleedingheart,
Yes, another thing that needs to be changed by our politiciansn – majority of were not muslims. All parties have had a chance with their respective governments for 61 years – but havent done so yet.
Wonder why?
Bashing up Hindus is the national past time in India. There was a series of blasts where many innocent people were killed and these blasts were engineered by the Jihadis. Nowhere in the mainstream media there is criticism of these Jinhadis in any proper way. They don’t even want to acknowledge what the Jihadis and others claim and beleive. But on Hindus they throw all kinds of tantrums. Now Shabana’s comments here is just a smokescreen to divert the attention from the blasts to something else. She is know for such smokescreen rants. All part of th age old taquiya techniques.
There is one Bristish women who claims that she is so happy to live in Brotain and not in India. Perhaps she is too ignorant about the global diaspora. Hindus (any caste, tribe, belief) in Britain are most accomodating and less separatist. THe Muslims have a major conflict in Britain with the law and other authorities.
It is very important for us to understand what the Muslims beleive and claim to believe. Because as all of us have to survive and live in this world we need to counter the effects of this barbarian ideology. The world is waking up to this menace post september 11.
anon guy,
u have made me ashamed of what i wrote as a first reax to shabhana’s i/v with karan. (btw, it cld be that karan has let the cat among the pigeons and is watching the fun with a huge grin)
next, as a christian i have the duty to address some of the points you raised vis a vis us. i belong to a so-called ‘high caste’ christian comm and we dont really accept outsiders into the fold and yes caste is a primary reason there. i doubt if a namboodiri wld be turned away if he wanted to join my comm, its another matter if it were another caste – this despite decades of communism. no one in kerala has forgotten that thing called caste imo.
secondly, speaking for myself if that’s any good i dont support conversions of more people. i myself have been approached by catholics, anglicans, pentecostals you name it all my life and only now have i found a reply to them (and myself) and it is this – CHRISTIAN, CONVERT THYSELF. it will probably take up all one’s days to be put what the bible asks of us into practice.
thirdly, it might be true that “evangelical christians” will attack india shld we be found in possession of something precious. but then again, it might not be be true. i repeat, india is different. pls let us not be cynical. and even if this dreaded scenario does unfold, i can say this without any doubt in my mind – no indian christian will support or cross over to their side. he might remain passive but wont be a traitor…
sara,
what is your opinion as a muslim on all these indian muslims who’re planting bombs. do they really have a leg to stand on.
i still say this – indians are responsible and democratic. there are blemishes on our track record but there will be nothing gained by blaming only hindus and leave out unchristian christians and godless muslims.
>>Anonymous Guy
As you said majority of Hindus and Muslims carry a liberal view, but both these sections are represented by the extremists from their side.
I would say, instead of addressing the core issues , Right wing nationalists and Muslim extremists made the situation more hostile. As per the Sachar commicion report Muslims are still a backward community even after 60 years of independence. Nobody can’t be blamed for this except themselves. The Muslim community should achieve modern education and get rid of these clerics who misguide them. And we should be able to accept them to the society as fellow citizens .
The attack on WTC helped the Hindu rightwing extremists to push their cause further.
As Herman Goering infamously said ” People can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.… All you have to do is tell them they’re being attacked and denounce the pacifists for a lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country ”
Sadly the exact thing happens in our country.
How can we assure the liberal Muslims that they will be accepted to the mainstream society if even people like Shabana Azmi is treated this way.
Anonymous Guy:
Well, everybody is bigoted in their own way I suppose.. I read that thread in the link – funny arguments you’ve presented there.
Anyhow, the Family planning stuff is something that is best discussed in a different thread.
Sara:
You’re a joke. Smell some roses yourself. There are 13 distinct commentators on this page, and 5 of them accept that there is a problem, and agree that it needs correction. 2 more are disbelieving. That leaves us with 6 people, out of whom 2-3 made ‘racist’ comments.
So, you’re looking at 3 anonymous commentators on a blog, and equating India with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. D’you want me to point out some racist anti-islam and hate-muslim British blogs and web sites? Just let me know, I can post several links.
Use some sense. Despite all the ‘racist comments’ and ‘racist people’, there are enough Muslims/Sikhs/Parsis/Jews/Christians who have made it big in India. Kalam, Shah Rukh Khan, Manmohan Singh, Sonia Gandhi, etc. etc. etc…
Now show me similar examples in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. Piss off….
Sara,
The point is : The indian constitution makes no discriminations against muslims, but the saudi constitution does. Thats the difference between India and saudi. India is not a hindu Saudi Arabia……
Yo British Muslim aka SARA,
Look at your own backyard. I live in London. twice in the last 3 years my application to rent a flat has been rejected by the white locals in preference to whites. This despite of me being ready to pay more advance.
Most likely they were thinking me as a muslim, which I’m not or the other scenario is they knew I’m an asian and did not want to take risk as I could be a muslim.
Instead of commenting about a country which you have never visited , try to comment on and correct whats happening in your own ‘born’ country.
As someone said good that you were never born in India.
Bugger off…
I assume that the right to sell rests with the seller. I wonder if the sellers gave Shabana and Saif the reason for not selling. Indians (not just Hindus) do like to live in groups they are familiar and this is a known fact. People in such places should be careful when making public statements. Also that democracy is for all people. I think the muslims are unfair to themselves and should stop blaming others for their problems.
Go and try buying a house in a predominantly Muslim area as a non-Muslim!
I have first hand information of how difficult it is for a Hindu family to nest between Muslim families, that too amongst well-to-do families in a city like Mysore!
And! This intolerance of Muslims is allowed lawfully by their personal law! If a Muslim family’s property is partitioned and one of them wants to alienate the property then they have to first offer it to other family members and only seek other parties if and only if they refuse to buy! This is called as Doctrine of Pre-Emption(nothing to do with Bush Doctrine!). Though this practice was followed by some “Hindus” too, Nehru advised by wise men, removed it while codifying Hindu Law.
Well lady, get your ilk to accept Uniform Civil Code then come up with this kind of diatribe!
First of all shabana azmi does not represent all Muslims, ask them.Whenever the Muslims do something stupid out of arrogance she’s never there to criticize them. I have a friend who is a Muslim who owns 3-4 houses and by proxy owns another half a dozen; he must be a Hindu disguised as a Muslim.
It is better to get rid of Kashmir, with the help of US and UN. That would save us from lot of money drained to Kashmir every year and millitary. I am sure no political leader in Kashmir wants “azadi” but they are keeping this afloat to get more from New Delhi , both economically and politically.
KS : you mean you want to get rid of Kashmiri Politicians, dont you?
Sir,
There is subtle discrimination in every society like Blacks cannot get into white neighbourhood etc and everyone knows about Indians and jackson heights or harlem.
I am a chrisitan and i eat all non veg food and my neighbour who is a typical Brahmin from malleswaram used to complain about the bachelors from north staying above him throwing egg shells and bones below.so he opposed meat eaters must not be given enancy when the bachelors left.
we used to have madrais and karol bagh in delhi during 1960s
Even today in University at delhi subtle discrimination of chinks(northeast),harrys(biharies) exist.
BUT NONE COMPLAIN BECAUSE THEY JUST ADJUST TO IT. But to see a communal angle and adding religious colour is not worthy of Shabana.
In a recent fundraiser a Hijab wearing woman was removed from Obama stage and that is how prejudice works in america.
Here any Mulsim can wear his skull cap,beard,I love Osma t-shirt and even full hijab and none will give second glance but if Muslims see a ghost due Saudi propagand then it is their problem.
The difference b/n Hinduism and Islam is, Moderate hindus accept the problems in Hinduism. I , being a Hindu, do not hesitate to condemn casteism. Likewise most Hindus condemn blind beliefs which was common in Hindus. I am sure 90% educated Hindus voice simila opnion. As time changes, our morality changes and we need to change our religions to suit the current practices. Do you think any muslim dare to raise his/her voice against some of the verses which are controversial and propogates violence.?
Sara>>i see nothing more than a bunch of racists – no different to those in places like pakistan or saudi – where people are segregated on the basis of religion.
Present situation of Muslims particularly in non-Muslim world is because of this type of denial.
“I don’t think the Muslim leadership has bothered to clear the air about what Islam actually is.” – Shabana. Well, who is to bell the cat. Why can’t you start. Become the leader of the community and Islam and try to clarify about the tenets and misconceptions. How many women from Islam have come out and candidly expressed their opinions and discussed the problems in public? Start right now and you will get support from all corners.
The reality, as indicated by some, is that most people in India are hurt and oppressed one way or the other – together that is a majority. However, most adjust and are not trigger happy. If some community who got hurt joined hand with all others with problems in the country we could work to make India a better place as a common goal. Instead the extreme elements turn issues into purely a religious issue and that is where their problems remain trapped forever and unsolvable.
Though Casteism exists in Hindu, we becomes united if it comes for our country. We take it as our internal problem and never ever turn to any other nation for help. Though, Nepal is a hindu country, we can never associate ourself with nepal on the basis of religion. The problem with Muslims is that their heart belongs to Pakistan. They celebrate when Pakistan beats India and burn nattional flag for even the slightest provocation. I believe Maulavis who could not fled to pakistan during partion still lives in the era of 1947 and see hindus as their enemy. Their is a need to refrom mushlim education system and hangs all the maulavi’s who teaches hatred and pollute the mind of young muslim indians. Have you ever heard of Christians saying that their heart lies into some other country.
yep kkr,
I didnt expect any rational thinking or replies from people who have been indoctrinated. I wasnt writing to such people anyway – it is like talking to a terrorist who has made up his mind.
For those of you implying that Muslims are mostly anti-nationals etc., what about the maoists and naxalites.
Most of their cadre is drawn from lower castes among hindus.
They dont have any allegience to the Indian constitution or to their religion.
Their numbers is rising everyday despite all efforts from the government agencies and people opposed to them.
They are a dangerous and subversive force, who have strength in number but (luckily) probably dont yet have funding or weaponry to take on the system.
The Chinese did not come into India and start this movement. If there is any support it is only on the fringe. And anyway – it is in the interest of an aggressive neighbour to take advantage of internal strife.
So how do we solve this problem? By blaming whom?
http://offstumped.nationalinterest.in/2008/08/17/shabana-who/
Thanks for the link Syodha. These are precisely the questions KT (who makes many people squirm or cry) should have asked as the Devil’s Advocate. Looks like he let her off lightly.
When I was studying, my roommates and me were looking for a flat. Found a good cheap flat. When we inquired, the landlady told us only one of us could stay for 1/3rd the rent (we were 3 people). And he was a Muslim.
Have to add… the place was near a mosque, so maybe they had a reason. All I wanted to say was that it happens the other way too and we don’t keep calling it “discrimination against the majority”.
AG,
The greater part of the population is influenced by the lay press and visual media which have been for the past decade highlighting those fanatics/ fundamentalists who belong to the Islamic faith ( The Indian press have been doing this since at least 1947!). It takes a little bit of sophistication to understand that the Naxalites and Maoists as well as Bush and Putin are all terrorists of different shades.
Religion is only one of the several cutural ideologies that can make a person turn to aggression as way of life, not to mention the influence of personality, genetics and factors intrinsic to the biology of a person.
Nevertheless in this instance Ms Azmi sounds just a muddled ass – nothing more nothing less:)
BB@B you say ‘ Though Casteism exists in Hindu, we becomes united if it comes for our country.’.
Would yopu please care to substantiate that claim. I am sure it will be very amusing!
Pat Condell here could just as well have been talking about India —
This tendency to exclude other communities exists in all religius groups. I once ran a factory at a village in nelamangala taluq near Bangalore. I wanted to live close to the factory. One of the closest hamlets was Islampura. I was told by the residents that no house could be rented to me because I was not a muslim!!!!
I find this lady Kazi who recently conducted the Nikah of a couple in Lucknow, better suited to speak on behalf of the Muslims (and even for the majority Hindus, why not!) compared to Shabana. She at least had the courage to start treading a path she thought was righteous, without awaiting for the majority, Indian law and Indian polity to act in her favor. Did Shabana speak in her favor? Don’t know if she did. But, hope she stands with the reformist lady in case the hardline clergy began targeting her action.
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/348122.html
Why should shabana support your favourite causes and reforms?
You can do that yourself.
BB@B you say ‘ Though Casteism exists in Hindu, we becomes united if it comes for our country.’.
It is absolute nonsense. Ask Deve Gowda’s Grand Son to marry a Dalit. Then I will accept.
Ask Laloo’s son to marry a dalit, then i will accept it.
Ask Chautala’s Grandson to marry a south indian then i will accept it.
Right from marriages to death Caste system is practiced and preached by both constitution and the politicians.
The country has gone to dogs…
Also I never said anything about Bush or Putin being bad people. I am not that ‘sophisticated’.
Allright. Let us summarise where we stand as of now.
1. Anybody who questions the religious doctrines of Islam are branded racists.
2. There is absolutely nothing wring with its teachings, history, theology. All of it can be justified with other religions’ doctrines. Because Hindus had casteism, Islam can practice Sharia and Jihad.
3. Never call a spade a spade, because it supposedly hurts some.
4. Whole of the world is against Islam for none of its faults. Americans have been offended way too much for just 3000 killings on 9/11. And British are way too racists in their reaction to cultural shock they had – seeig that majority of educated UK muslims demanding Sharia law. Also, witnessing the overt oppression of woman and non believers. Also a few small attacks on Glasgow and other places.
5. Islamic terrorism can be equated and defended with the acts of Naxals, Maoists, though the communist based ideology has good intent at its core.
6. India, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are all equal. Even though Saudi considers men as men and women as cattles and a virtual non existence of basic human rights.
7. Lastly, I am no different from a dariwaala maulvi for above observations.
8. No on can stop people who want to generalize and write mindless summaries.
9. If Shabana Azmi raises a issue – attack her personally and then move away tangentially from the issue at hand onto Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, 9/11, sharia, jihad and any other buzzwords.
The issue at the hand is precisely those you mentioned, namely – sharia, jihad, 9/11, and other radical religious doctrines. How can you talk of muslims without talking of their acts and how can talk of islam for what it itself stands for. You can either be politically correct like Shabana and use the same rhetorics of misunderstnading and live in denial or come out openly to critisize the aspects of muslims and islam that deserves critisism. For another, I agree that Shabana probably sounds better of the lot since all that we have been listening from muslim community is waging war and buiding mosques. That doesn’t make her great.
As for bringing tangential topics, anyone who goes through the posts will know who brought in Pakistan, saudi, india comparision; naxal-terrorist balanced equation and other nonsenses.
http://static.ibnlive.com/data/newpodfiles/interviews/devils_shabana_azmi.mp3
Here is the interview with Shabana Azmi, after hearing it, I am of the view that her comments have been cherry picked for sensationalism.
“They dont have any allegience to the Indian constitution or to their religion.”
The difference b/w naxalites and muslims is this:
They dont have any allegience to the Indian constitution and carry out terrorist activities precisely on the basis of religion”.
Tarlemaga, how come DeveGowda not marrying to any northindian or dalit is anti national.. do they burn Indian flag for this. How come Naxalite movement can be compared to what is happening in Kashmir. Do the Naxalites belongs to any religion..They can better be termed as anti-social than anti-national.
SmallTalkSon,
Some what agree with you on all points except, …”it is not practiced by the Constituition” :)
Shabana Azmi has a valid point. We tend to highlight the fundamentalists and blame the entire religion for some of the problems we face. It is the same case with RSS and other fundamentalist hindus.
Also the problems between Hindus and Muslims is mainly because of economic reasons. I would like to quote Chetan Bhagat:”Imagine if India was a developed country, our biggest problems – poverty, healthcare, infrastructure, child labour- will be gone. Alongside, there will be lesser religious tension or caste differences. If you have a nice home and a Toyota Corolla, it is unlikely you will go and riot on the streets.” (from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7558082.stm )
@PTCBUS:
“I would like to quote Chetan Bhagat:”Imagine if India was a developed country, our biggest problems – poverty, healthcare, infrastructure, child labour- will be gone. Alongside, there will be lesser religious tension or caste differences. If you have a nice home and a Toyota Corolla, it is unlikely you will go and riot on the streets.” ”
..HAHAHA..HO HOHO HEE HEE HEE …….
Please go and see the people’s view on that CB crap in the relevant churumuri post
ptcbus,
Many of the suspected muslim terrorists actually come from decent backgrounds. They have good education, have jobs and so on – that kafeel guy who got caught in london is one example. Others like yahya kamakutty were working in IT companies – they were not from the street. Bin laden himself was pretty rich. Poverty is an excuse to cover the inherent fundamentalism in islam. If the sachar committee points out that muslims are lagging behind in India, they cannot, but blame themselves for this.
I am a Pakistani lived in UK for few years. Most of the comments here are not in line with the experience i had with Hindus. . My best mates in university in London were hindus. We will hangout together. Do everything which one can imagine. They use to to come to my place we will chat have food together. We never had any problem with eachother. Once 2 hindus shared a house with me. And there was never any problem. We will sit chat , laugh and have food together. What i found that the north indians were more comfortable with me because of my Punjabi background . One of my north indian hindu mate that he is more comfortable with me than any south indian. He used to call south indian as aliens. I have never been to india but my exp with hindus was great. I am still intouch with all my hindu mates. Dont know why hindus and muslims hate eachtoher in india
@ BB@B says “how come DeveGowda not marrying to any northindian or dalit is anti national.. do they burn Indian flag for this. How come Naxalite movement can be compared to what is happening in Kashmir. Do the Naxalites belongs to any religion..They can better be termed as anti-social than anti-national.”
When they promote caste based votebank then they are as ANTI-NATIONAL as Pakistan. He is a true psedo secularist.
Brain and Heart are not in sync. Heart stays Indian but Brain states Gowda….
He is an example only… we have other like YADAV,BRAHMINS,LINGAYATS,NAIRS,BANERJEE,MUKHERJEE,NAIDU,KAMMA,KAPU etc…
No one wants to call an INDIAN and INDIAN. …
TAMILIAN,KANNADIGA,MALAYALEE,ORIYA,MARATI….
BAL THACKAREY,RAJ THACKAREY flame hatred in this country….
All Muslim superstars have bought houses in Bombay. As far as I know, noe of them is staying in a hotel. There will always be some people everywhere who will refuse to sell a house or a flat to a member of a community. People have forgotten that when Sikh militancy was at its peak, many non-sikhs were unwilling to rent out or sell a house to a Sikh. Of course, as far as Muslims are concerned, the reasons are a bit more complicated and have deep historic roots.
In only a few places in the country do Hindus and Muslims live in mixed settlements. The unstated mutual segregation is not healthy at all. But it is not just Hindus and Muslims who live like this. In India’s villages, within Hindus too, people of same or similar castes tend to live together. Dalits invariably live seperately for reasons that are a dark blot on Hinduism.
Shabana Azmi, who is now a politician and a social worker, has to be knowing all these facts. Still, she has chosen to speak irresponsibly and has given the whole thing a communal hue with Muslims as victims. This ‘victimisation’ is the precise ammunition that fundamentalists use to infame communal passions.
Is Shabana shifting political track?
@ranjah
Yes, India is a diverse & large country and its not always everyone connects immediately and is well travelled. But there are sufficient instances to know that its not a big problem. When people get to know each other, differences dissolve fairly easy or what remains is not of serious concern. Surely people in North have a cultural link with Pakistan – its not long since the partition took place – and can find many connects with people across the border. That is why I keep wondering, why did the muslims who left for Pakistan – leave?
To ostracize is a civil right of every individual. But it is a silly thing to do. Its repercussions can be serious. Victims of social ostracizing may feel unwanted, have low self esteem, have to live in ghettos, and eventually turn antisocial.
Still, I must say it’s hard to generalize anything about Mumbai. I lived in that great city; it was as cosmopolitan as any city could be. Money and enthusiasm almost always trumped religion, creed, profession.
The only reason a flatlord might exclude an individual from a tenant-search was for dietary habits: Many Hindus and Jains do not support animals to be killed/cooked for food, and it is their right to not have the cruelty occur on their property. (In my view animals should have similar rights. But of course that’s a different story!)
I have much respect for Azmi as an actress and activist, However, in this case, I am not naive enough to believe her claim. India has not reached a stage where wealth is considered less important than religion.
History has placed a tragic burden on Indian Muslims. They have to prove that they are Indian first and then Muslim. Muslim segregation has always been self segregation. History catches up with everybody.
I want to go off on a tangent here–how about the homeless, Hindu, Sikh, Isai, or Muslim, for whom the sky is roof and the earth bed? Why not open up our mandirs, gurudwaras, igarjis, and masjids to them?
By the way, don’t anybody tell me that both Muslims and Hindus worship at the same dargas. Where do they go after the worship session is over?
BB&B, Tarlemaga, Sandesh and PTL,
Have you guys watched “Dharm” (2007)? Director, Bhavna Talvar. Pankaj Kapur brilliantly plays a purohit in Kashi, Pandit Chaturvedi.
The purohit becomes obsessed with “prayaschit” and “shuddhikaran” after unknowingly adopting a Muslim child. But the absurdity of exclusivity dawns on him toward the end of the film. That’s when he becomes realized, so to speak. Very thoughtfully scripted, great cinematography, and a fantastic background score by Sonu Nigam.
I’d like to recommend it to you guys and the others participating in this discussion.
Can hindus buy a house or at least live in a slum in old city of hyderabad? No! Hindus can’t do that in any of old city areas such as Charminar, mogulpura. Even in new city ares like Mehidipatnam my uncle was denied permission to apply for a flatin Muslim area..Go figure who is discriminating..
hi peshva,
the only problem is all these euphonies and agreeable insights curiously only occur to idol worshippers, apparently. only they seem to be having these types of revelations. even in fiction it is inconceivable that a maulvi happens by these.
my criticism is simple, wake me up when you can make a list of indian authors with a citation index of 1 on the essential and actual condition of indian muslims forget indian islam in general and islam in particular.
our guys have spent so much energy in blowing up the balloons of the idealistic indian islam not rooted in indian reality, that even in academic circles they are not taken seriously, forget about the unreasonable unachievable burden of the said stereotype on hapless indian muslims living amongst us. guess what, the above mentioned meDam’s hubby is a prime perpetuator of the said myths and setting up of absurd and eventually suffocating myths.
TS–
Start talking in a way we all can understand. You sound high like a Talibani on Afghani aafeeem.
aha! PTL i see true to your name you have some royal tastes! only the finest afghaani for you ha? often obscurity is a sign of laziness and poor articulation skills. mannisbeku.
what i am trying to say is for all the talk, there are hardly any ‘modern liberal’ indian sources on anything to do with indian muslims, indian islam or even global islam. ditto even the much touted sufi-ism. beyond hagiography we have nothing to show from the liberal cabal. guess who are all the seminal sources in india? the uber orthrodox deobandis, the tablighis and such.
the basic thing is, until the liberals are willing to really mean what they say they believe in, and, more importantly, develop balls to stand upto what they say they believe in, there is no hope.
cheddis have an atavistic response to the problem. and liberals are enamoured in their own theory, they go to great and absurd lengths to wish away the problem. the vaccum left behind by liberals is what the cheddis have occupied. otherwise for a people who for all practical purposes have made ambedkar the new manu*, there is nothing in the cheddi gospel worth respect. only reason why the cheddi gospel rings true is because the secular hadiths are seen to be absurd.
* now dont hit me with data about how dalits etc etc are still prosecuted. they sure as day light are. but the point is within naaTi dharma, criticism and correction is accepted, changes are slow and late coming, but work is in progress, ever so slightly.
TS,
Why do you say liberals and cheddis. Them and us would sound more honest :)
point is, nobody wants to and today it is politically unviable, to revert to manu. but shariah is still a popular and a politically viable platform. why is that? when there is no room for manifest exceptionalism of hinduism why is there still space for manifest exceptionalism of islam? forget tackling islam, we are not even able to evaluate kings with muslim names on their own merit. why is that? honestly tell me, what is so great about Akbar – somebody who presided over murder of ten of thousands of unarmed rajputs? din-e-lahi? random guy in pantarpalya if in power would have done better than that. why do the liberals spend inordinate amount of energy in sanitizing islamic rulers – even obviously bigoted ones like aurangajeb? why is it so important to do that? this would only be important in a modern day republic if a perverted sense of exceptionalism has political currency. the burden on ordinary muslims is that they are patronizingly defended as not harbouring such notions. When, if you were truely respectful of the people, you would trust them with critical thinking.
Beyond abstractions, look at what SA is pitching for. She does not want to be a voice for liberalism. She wants platform for liberal muslims. She does not want somebody who can analyze only somebody who is sophisticated enough to rationalize.
because, sir, my family has actually lived and continue to live in a muslim neighborhood in one of the most communally sensitive towns in India for close to 70 years now? neighbours in the 5 house chawl include one pathan and one deccani muslim family. and because life and dynamics of the people who share common toilets is nothing as pictured by liberals even if more pragmatic and congenial?
like, duh?!!
only cheddi and victoria’s secret allowed-a? cant there be a roopa underwear guy?
the funny thing is even by dialectic standards the way liberals deal with akbar and his related and unrelated ilk is absurd. actually sham only it is. fakkin stand up to the dialectics is all i am saying.
Its a baseless comment from Azmi. there are millions of muslim in india who had bought property in india, might be Azmi has to recheck if they are muslims or not. Subregistrar never asks your religion or the builder/reseller never bothers if u r from a particular community. As long as business is done, they are happy. So whats the point in making these comments? Has she ever opened her mouth on the kashmiri pandits who were thrown out from their own land? has she done any visit to kashmiri pandit’s families and the state of their life? its better she should think positively or better to have a consultation with a doctor in a mental hospital like NIMHANS
Dear Shabana,
You have got it wrong !
We don’t give you houses for rent. We only give a separate nation for you if you want.
We already gave your community, a big nation called Pakistan. Then, what have you been doing in India for so long ? or do you feel your community has not kept that nation good enough to live in ? How can you blame Indian democracy for that ?
I suggest you to better to go to your nation Pakistan and bark there to become another Benazir !
TS
ur too hi fi even by this blog’s stds. but ur prolly right tho not for that reason
TIMES OF INDIA, Mumbai did a ‘sting” to check if Shabana Azmi’s charges were correct..and this is what they found
>>>>
“Actor Shabana Azmi has sparked off a huge controversy by alleging that Muslims cannot buy flats in Mumbai and that the community was discriminated against. TOI decided to do a reality check. Its reporters posed as Muslim flat-buyers-Mohammed Hanif and Abdul Rashid-and called up several builders’ offices and real estate agents at random, inquiring about the availability of flats. The results were by and large contrary to what Azmi alleged. Here’s what we did:
We dialled K Raheja builder (26005269) and inquired about his project on Link Road, behind D Mart, in Malad (West). An executive said booking was open and possession would be available by Diwali. Asked if they had any objection to selling flats to Muslims he replied: “Absolutely no problem sir. We don’t bother about the religion of buyers. Anyone willing to pay our price is welcome.”
RNA builders (28975659) have a project at NG Park on Shiv Vallabh Road, Rawalpada, Borivli (West). A staffer said an 850 sq ft (built-up area) flat can be had at Rs 4,800 per sq ft. He categorically stated that being a Muslim did not matter to his company. “You can come anytime to have a look at the flats,” he added cheerfully.
A staffer at Kalpataru Builders (28842600) said two-and-a-half BHK flats can be booked at their project in Kandivli (E) and possession will be given in May 2009. He reassured that religion was no consideration for the sale. “We have no issue selling flats to Muslims,” he emphasised.
At Nahar Builders’ office (28470201) an assistant identified himself as Sureshbhai and initiated a smooth sales talk about their project at Chandivli Farm Road near Powai. He said flats measuring 1040 sq ft were available for at Rs 10,000 per sq ft. He was surprised when we asked if he had any reservations about selling a flat to a Muslim. “Why there should be any problem?” he asked innocently. “You are most welcome,” he added for good measure.
Real estate agent Sushil Khemchand (9820800728), when contacted, said a posh flat was available on outright purchase for Rs 2.5 crore off Turner Road in Bandra (West). Measuring around 1100 sq feet, this flat-situated in an eight-year-old building-was available to people from all religions, he stated. He assured that that the housing society would have no objection to Muslims staying there.
Estate agent Rajubhai Dayalani (9322571471) has a few flats for sale at Mayuresh Shristi, L B S Marg, in Bhandup (West). He said it was available for anywhere between Rs 44 lakh and Rs 56 lakh. Rajubhai said the flats were open for people from all communities and there was no discrimination. “Only the price mattered. Please come on Sunday to have a look,” he said enthusiastically.
Lokhandwala Construction (32933197) project near Worli Naka is ready for possession, and falls under the Slum Rehabilitation Scheme. Shailesh Bhai, who is promoting the project, told TOI that there was no problem being a Muslim and one could easily purchase an apartment here. The builder, Moiz Lokhandwala, was a Muslim who did not care about the religion of the buyers. Bhoomi builders (28617227) have a project at Bhoomi Valley, near Thakur Public School, in Kandivli. They too have no objections to Muslims buying properties in their projects.
A few others, however, had some reservations .
Windsor builders (21714617) in Thane have a project, whose possession date is December 2008. When asked whether a Muslim can buy property there, a staffer replied: “Sir, I am confused. I am not sure. I will have to check with my boss.”
Kabra Builders (28783818) have a project at Vidya Niketan Marg, off M G Road in Goregaon (West). It is a redevelopment project and will have 2 BHK flats for possession by November 2008. Each flat measures 925 sq ft built-up area and will have proper amenities. However, Deepakbhai, who spoke to us, said that he was not sure about Muslims being accommodated here. “As it is a redeveloped property, I will have to take a no-objection from the society,” he said and promised to get back to us soon.
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These muslim leaders are creating more communalism and divisions among people in the name ‘liberalism’ ‘intellectualism’ etc.
Ordinary muslim worker/hindu worker would be more interested in earning their anna.
By the way dont they (shabana, saif ) have their own bungalows?
why do they need flats?
TS–
The only thing royal about me is that once in a while I take a sip of RC.
Andy,
Thanks for that report.
5 out of 7 is a good figure. And I am assuming TOI reporter chose the builders at random, without any bias and carried out the sting in a professional fashion, because presenting the finding.
Shabana needs to answer to this sting – at least needs to study the report and come up with some reason for why she generalized her experience (in the light of this report). And if she actually has any proof (even anecdotal from a cross section of people she talked to – besides Saif), she should present it.
However reading the number of comments in this article, asking Shabana to leave to Pakistan etc., and in general writing hate-stuff which would make a Taliban proud, I would tend to think that she has a valid point :)
See this report. Apparently Shabana is not as houseless as she puts it…
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1184725
Care to post it?
what about a apartment in bangalore that you want to rent??? i am interested in renting
let Shaban try what she has achieved in India in any Muslim country. She will find what she is getting in India. She is just plain ungrateful to her country to make such sttaements
Javed Akhtar shouldn’t be allowed to buy a flat anywhere in the country!
I think Muslims constitute 20 to 30% of Mumbai”s total population,are they living in footpaths.What nonsense SA is talking about.She is crying foul just to get cheap publicity.