K. JAVEED NAYEEM writes: Three weeks have gone by since attacks on churches first took place in the State with all people of all communities with any goodwill keeping their fingers crossed.
Thankfully last Sunday went by in much greater peace and sanity than the two previous ones without any untoward incidents in the State even as reports of sporadic violence trickled in from other States.
Since I too was a little concerned and anxious that this kind of communal tension should quickly be defused, I was carefully scanning all reports that were appearing in the media about the problem.
While there were many views expressed by many intellectuals, thankfully one thing that stood out was the sentiment that the attacks on churches were unwarranted and unbecoming of a civilised society.
Thankfully, this was the view that was expressed even by all those who felt that conversions were the cause and conversions were very wrong.
Most people who wrote in favour of adopting strong deterrent action against violence also wrote in favour of acknowledging all the good that had been done to our society by Christians.
What surprised me was the fact that articles expressing these sentiments that appeared on the net far outnumbered the ones that appeared in print.
Gladdened by what I read therein, I felt that if only these could be read by more people it would have been good.
Sadly, despite the phenomenal growth of the cyber media even in our country, the net is still accessible only to a relative small minority of serious intellectuals while the newspaper and the local televi-sion channels still remain the main source of information to the common man.
It is noteworthy that Christians, who have been under suspicion of harbouring a sinister agenda in the present series of attacks, have by and large been a very peaceful community. Also, they have been the ones who have most comfortably adapted to a harmonious existence with all other communities with their hallmark being an immense re sistance to any provocation.
If excessive evangelisation and conversions had been the real provoking cause for the violence we all saw recently, I am sure the organisations responsible for it would certainly have heeded any advice against it without warranting or necessitating any violent resistance.
Personally I do not think that religious conversions, the causes of which have been analysed and discussed by many learned thinkers, are going to make any significant difference, let alone any dent on the demographic profile of our vast country.
It is important for every non-Christian Indian to remember the pioneering contribution of the Christian community in general and the Christian nuns and priests in particular who actually came to our shores as evange-lising missionaries, for all the good that they have done. Especially, their contribution to the establishment of good education and health care traditions and facilities in our country when almost none existed should never be overlooked.
Our present generations which have the best of both these facilities if they happen to dwell either in or around our cities, may not be aware of this contribution of the Christians but they need to be told about it.
Although we can now boast of almost world-class facilities in these two vital sectors it is no secret that we have still not fully succeeded in touching the lives of those fellow countrymen who still dwell in the deepest reaches of our remote villages and tribal areas far beyond the reach of all progress and development.
They have no other source of light except the feeble and flickering glow of the Christian candle.
Our great country has always been a crucible of amalgamation which has allowed the simultaneous flourishing of many religions, philosophies and cultures without any sense of threat to each other.
Conversions have been a part of every religion without any exception.
Our world famous Hoysaleshwara temple at Halebid which we all proudly present as one of the best examples of our rich culture was in fact built to commemorate king Vishnuvardhana‘s conversion from Jainism to Hinduism in the 12th century. But it does not provoke any resentment in our hearts whatsoever.
Today any effort, however small or big, which is aimed at increasing communal harmony and soothing bruised hearts, is what our nationhood needs to become strong and prosperous.
I shall give a very small but significant example to illustrate this point.
In response to an article about the spirit of Ramzan I had written four weeks ago, I received much feedback and many responses from readers. Many non-Muslims particularly were very appreciative that I had brought out many positive aspects about Islamic social justice which were hitherto unknown to them. While most people told me that what I had written was a good effort at creating better understanding between different faiths, one e-mail stood out apart from the rest.
It was from Nanjaraja Jois, a former professor of physics. He had written to say that he was deeply touched by the importance given in Islam to charity and alms giving and particularly to Zakath, the mandatory charity. In his letter, Prof Jois expressed his desire to personally get involved in this aspect of the Islamic spirit in his own way by visiting a Muslim orphanage and making a small donation to help the inmates there.
Overwhelmed by his sense of empathy and brotherhood I spoke to Abdul Azeez Chand, the secretary of the local Muslim girls orphanage who immediately asked me to inform Prof Jois that he was welcome to visit the place with his family even without prior notice.
On a prearranged date we met at the orphanage and in addition to his wife Leela and son Anoop, a full-time pranic healer, Prof. Jois was accompanied by Seethalakshmi and P. S. Balakrishnan who were closely involved with him in social work.
Impressed by what they saw there, the good Samaritans agreed in unison that this orphanage was the best maintained of the eight orphanages they had visited in the City. They announced the assistance that they had so kindly wanted to make, touching the inmates with their love and concern.
Uninvited they had come, crossing the great divide that we have ourselves created, thanks to the difference in our faiths and reached out to those in need of help.
After they left I felt that this is what humanity is all about and this is what all of us as human beings should learn—rising above our petty differences of race, religion and caste and responding to the needs of fellow human beings as children of one God.
(K. Javeed Nayeem is a practising physician, who writes a weekly column in Star of Mysore, where this piece first appeared)
Thanks. A good balanced piece in the troubled times…
Dear Nayeem,
Your sentiments are touching. However religious politics is more complex.
Religious conversions are taking place in India since the Vedic times. The converter is not really interested in your spiritual uplift. He is interested in your following him. History of India is a very good subject for a deep study of the behaviour of the converted people,(even the pre-Islam conversions).
Well, you can very well see how western countries raise a cry about the Hindu atrocities against the Christian. They are bothered only if the suffering Indian is a Christian. Clearly it is dirty international politics!
I feel surprised when a Hindu or Muslim is appreciated helping a Muslim or a Hindu. It is glorified as Brotherhood and communal harmony. When a human is helping another human, what is the necessity of pointing out the personal faith?
Woolly and fuzzy! Too simplistic analysis. To say that Vedic religion engaged in evangalism betrays rank ignorance. Hinduism has no Church or Tabligh to prevail upon the followers of Hinduism to adhere to the religious tenets, much less persuade others to adopt Hinduism. One swallow does not make a season. Ramanujacharya’s proslytisation of Vishnuvardhana to Vaishnavism does not prove that Hinduism is a missionary religion. Even reformative bodies like Arya samaj aimed to bring back converts into Hindu fold, and not to covert persons who were born in other religions.
Excellent article.
Did you duffers ever realise that the Christian population stands at 2.5%?
If you are so patriotic, why dont you start boycotting convent schools and put your kids in Kannada medium? Why dont you work for sarkar offices instead of surfing internet while bootpolishing your white masters??
Shameless hypocrites you are.
As usual Dr. Nayeem makes for thoughtful, compassionate reading. But there are serious chinks in his argument:
1. Nobody disputes the Christian missionaries’ phenomenal contribution in education/healthcare. That’s not the point.
The point is “conversion” — by promising an exclusive “Heaven,” by indulging a self-righteous zeal, by preying on the poorest, etc. Clearly it is the conversion activities, not educational/medical activities, that are causing the resentment.
Dr. Nayeem’s argument indulges two types of logical fallacy — “appeal to emotion” and “circumstantial ad hominem.”
Regardless of one’s position on the right to convert others, philanthropy cannot be easily accepted by a dignified people if it must be accompanied by a self-righteous evangelical message.
Evangelical Christians display an incredible ignorance of the all-encompassing Hindu dharma, as well as a theological arrogance in an exclusive claim of going to a Heaven. Their activities are naturally annoying, even offensive, to Hindus who already have a well-developed, profound, liberal, religious tradition of 5000 years.
If for so many generations Hindus and Christians have lived in peace, why should all of a sudden there emerge a fringe element, led by hooligans, which seeks destroy the peace? It seems the trigger is a spurt in “save the poor oppressed souls with Vatican funds” activities of Christian zealots who read the Bible literally. The inquiry by Judge B.K. Somashekhara should be able to document the details of that trigger.
2. Dr. Nayeem declares, “Conversions have been a part of every religion without any exception.”
He does not seem to understand the Hindu dharma. There is no theory of conversion to talk about — “You become a Hindu and you get the virgins,” or “You become a Hindu and you go to Heaven,” or “You become a Hindu and God will love you more.” All that would be silly to a Hindu, whose theology NEVER demands a literal, exclusionary, reading. For example nowhere in Hindu (primarily Vedantic) dharma will you see a law akin to the first Christian commandment, “Thou Shalt Have No Gods Before Me” — a commandment which evangelicals read literally and preach incessantly.
In fact, some scholars go as far as to argue that Hindu dharma’s primary texts are not really fundamental texts in the way the term is used in the Judeo-Christian or Islamic traditions, so any popular media description of a “fundamentalist Hindu” may be an oxymoron.
Dr. Nayeem’s example of Vishnuvardhana is absurd. Vishnuvardhana’s conversion reflect no demand, threat, inducement, or promise in any Hindu text. Vishnuvardhana could as well have become some other type of ideologue. After all, intelligent people change all the time as they evolve in age and wisdom. Conservatives turn liberal, and vice versa. Capitalists turn socialist, and vice versa. If Vishnuvardhana declared he was Hindu it probably had to do with his personal intellectual evolution, and nothing to do with inducements/threats/demands of Hindu dharma. He was promised neither virgins nor a Heaven.
Hindu dharma’s greatness — and maturity — is in its acceptance of diverse prophets and philosophies. Being Hindu enables one to appreciate and accept Christ’s teachings. Christian evangelicals cannot understand that; they don’t have the theological wherewithal to understand it.
The Vedanta, a dominant philosophical tradition in Hindu dharma, encourages one to take the best of everything from the material/non-material “mayavadi” universe to realize the “Paramatman” who is believed to be deeply embedded well within. Hindus don’t need the external agent/crutch of a single “holy book” or a “holy prophet” for spiritual realization. They recognize neither a soul nor an afterlife in the same way that Christians theorize (even though “atman” and “reincarnation” may be crude etymological substitutes).
3. Dr. Nayeem writes, “Personally I do not think that religious conversions, the causes of which have been analysed and discussed by many learned thinkers, are going to make any significant difference, let alone any dent on the demographic profile of our vast country.”
Dr. Nayeem is clearly unaware of the 1981, 1991 and 2001 census data from the Northeastern states, from Orissa and from West Bengal where there’s clear evidence of major demographic transformation due to religious conversion (as well as immigration).
4. Dr. Nayeem writes, “In the deepest reaches of our remote villages and tribal areas. . . [there is] no other source of light except the feeble and flickering glow of the Christian candle.”
Clearly, Dr. Nayeem has chosen to ignore the phenomenal social work — without any inducement of “Heaven” or of any virgins — conducted in a low-profile, sincere, manner by the Ramakrishna Mission, by organizations such as the Swami Vivekananda Youth Movement (in B.R. Hills and in Saraguru of H.D. Kote taluk), by the Art of Living Foundation, by the Chinmaya swamis, even by the much-criticized Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh. None of those organizations demands a quid pro quo from people they serve. Genuine social workers respect the dignity of those that they help, unlike many Christian evangelicals who dangle a cross as a freebie.
5. I am curious if Dr. Nayeem has an opinion about why Christian missionaries lay off Muslims. Don’t Muslims deserve to go to Heaven too? Don’t Muslim souls need to be saved too?
Overall, the exclusivity, or exclusionary core, of the Judeo-Christian and Islamic faiths is bound to cause offense in a nation steeped in mature Eastern traditions (Hindu, Jain, Buddhist, Sikh) — all those traditions are based on mutual respect, a genuine appreciation of diversity, as well as an all-encompassing generosity. I hope Dr. Nayeem appreciates that fact.
But otherwise, thanks for the good read, Dr. Nayeem!
Karnataka wasa jainism dominated state until 12th century.Almost all of the kannada workss prior to 12th century belongs to jain works.
Well written, and thanks for briinging this in your blog. In no way I could have access to
Star of Mysore”.
//What surprised me was the fact that articles expressing these sentiments that appeared on the net far outnumbered the ones that appeared in print.//
Yes, the sore point is “me ” amd “them”.. Where is the divide? It is in the mind. All of us want to go to heaven, so is it not better to leave aside the religion and do good?.
Your blog is raising good questions to ponder. Thanks.
Dr. Nayeem’s analysis is moderate but too simple. As a few bloggers before this have stated in response that saying Hinduism is evangelical is untrue. There is no record of Hindus inducing people of other religions to convert. No one questions the contributions of the Christian missionaries. It is their intent that is questioned. They founded their institutions with the sole purpose of spreading their religion and now that there is a backlash, one cannot ignore their actual intent. Worse still is their badmouthing of Hindu practices. Such deeds were bound to attract the wrath of the Hindus and that is what we all are witnessing. Tragic, reprehensible, but it is happening. If an organization’s sole intent is to do good to mankind, why play religion? For example, why is Mr. Abdul Azeez Chand the secretary of a Muslim girls’ orphanage and not just a girl orphanage? Such partitions in society cannot be explained away in a very simple manner. For the record, I am not a practitioner of any religion.
Mysore peshva’s writing is better and more illuminating than the main article itself. Wonderful, facts stated soberly without excitement.
This is the best part–
“Well, you can very well see how western countries raise a cry about the Hindu atrocities against the Christian. They are bothered only if the suffering Indian is a Christian. Clearly it is dirty international politics! ”
Our PM is with these people! He loves BUSH, which bush??
Very well written Mysore Peshva
Amrit Yegnanarayan:
“For example, why is Mr. Abdul Azeez Chand the secretary of a Muslim girls’ orphanage and not just a girl orphanage? ”
Excellent question, very thought provoking.
Majority of Maoist supporters in Orissa are Christians
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200810051766.htm
Finally they agree…
Are we staring at a situation like that in south America – a deadly concoction of Christian fundamentalism and communism.. ?
BTW: Most of the funds to missionaries come from South America…!
Peshwa-Displaced2Mysore!
A wonderful analysis and a good strong dose of reality medicine to the Doc! I at once saw 72 virgins and heaven simultaneously while reading your post. I am afraid the good doc has turned out to be a one-trick pony: seemingly innocent at first but quietly turning on the screws with a single-book-follower’s logic. Wah wah bahut quoob!
Again it is quite amusing to see the self-taught doc holding forth with his own brand of religious tolerance as long as the his peaceful flock is untouched:)
I am one of those non-believers who is still mystified by the ‘peaceful’ religion. Not for me the corporate tax laws of the religion mandating the proportion you have to give out as a ‘peacenik’. Going by that logic I am sure Messrs Dawood Ibrahim is a great ‘peacenik’ giving away his wealth to many ‘peacenik’ charities and other ‘peaceful’ causes:)
Thoughtful points by Mysuru Peshava.
There is a fundamental difference between so called ‘conversions’ between the Indic religions and conversion to an Abrahamic religion from a native religion. In fact the word ‘conversion’ would not even be correct if one assumed Jainism from Hinduism. It is more of ‘migration’ at a philosophical sense. More importantly, the native culture, language and genuine Indic local knowledge is not in danger when the migration is between native culture and way of life. Ancestral memories do not have to be forgotten; do not have to be ashamed to tell the name of their grand-father to children because he was not loved by a white european lord stuck up on the cross.
One need to really understand the enormity of casualty conversion has caused all over the world. The tribal knowledge that could have had tremendous impact on all of humanity is lost today because of vatican. Rootless people from Amazon to Philippines to South Korea are brainwashed into thinking they are inferior and will be saved by a Caucasian looking arab born to a virgin.
Peshwa-Displaced2Mysore!
A wonderful analysis and a good strong dose of reality medicine to the Doc! I at once saw 72 virgins and heaven simultaneously while reading your post. I am afraid the good doc has turned out to be a one-trick pony: seemingly innocent at first but quietly turning on the screws with a single-book-follower’s logic. Wah wah bahut quoob!
Again it is quite amusing to see the self-taught doc holding forth with his own brand of religious tolerance as long as his peaceful flock is untouched:)
I am one of those non-believers who is still mystified by the ‘peaceful’ religion. Not for me the corporate tax laws of the religion mandating the proportion you have to give out as a ‘peacenik’. Going by that logic I am sure Messrs Dawood Ibrahim and his ilk are great ‘peaceniks’ giving away their wealth to many ‘peacenik’ charities and other ‘peaceful’ causes:)
The easiest thing to analyze perhaps are the postings by a single-agenda mind.
Kudos to MP… You are far better than KJN saab
Read this
http://raghurame.sulekha.com/blog/post/2008/10/convert-to-atheism/comments.htm
1. Author>> I had brought out many positive aspects about Islamic social justice which were hitherto unknown to them.
Richard Eaton, noted historian on Islamic period of India history, is of the view: The first reference to social justice in Islam can be found only after French revolution. I see no reason to dispute that.
I would like the author to quote from middle age Islamic literature from India or abroad to show that Islam spoke about “Social justice”. Fact is, there is NONE. All those Islamic literature spoke Islam as “ONLY TRUE RELIGION”. Had Islam spoke about “social justice”, or practised it, Uttar Pradesh that endured 8 century of Islamic rule would have converted to Islam en-mass. Those who converted enmass to Islam – people of North West and Eastern India (now Pak and Bangladesh) were furthest from Ganga Valley- the high Culture of Hinduism. They were more Buddhist, than Hindus when invasion from the west took place.
We also know many different castes that exist in Islam of South Asia- Ashraf, Azlaf etc etc.
Or for that matter, even during the perceived ‘golden period of Islam during first 4 Khalifs”- there were separate living quarters, share in warbooty, rights between Arab and non-Arab Muslims. There are authoritative accounts to confirm these.
Today, even in Darfur, african Muslims are under attack from Janjuwees – the Arab Muslim militias. OIC supporting the regime that supports the Janjuwees.
Conversion because of social justice appeal of Xtianity also does not hold any water. There are dalit Church, dalit burial grounds today. That’s why tons of dalit Xtians are converting back to Hinduism. Its perpectuate today to divide Hindus along caste, and rally minorities religiously.
2. Author>>….built to commemorate king Vishnuvardhana’s conversion from Jainism to Hinduism in the 12th century. But it does not provoke any resentment in our hearts whatsoever.
Romila Thapar described how a Jaina high minister of a Hindu King in the then Gujarat in 13/14th century, made efforts to rebuild the Somnath temple after its many destruction by Mahmud of Ghazni.
A Jaina minister could do this because non-semitic faiths – whether Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism, Shintoism….can co-exist with each other, cooperate, incorporate ideas from each other. Most importantly, respect each other.
Even in modern times, 80% Japanese say they follow Buddhism, while 90% say they follow Shintoism. The eldest son of a Hindu family in Punjab thus becomes a Sikh. Master Tara Singh, the legendary Sikh leader of last century was from a Hindu Family.
3. Author>>the importance given in Islam to charity and alms giving and particularly to Zakath
With due respect, the greatest example of what a religious charity can do can be found in Sikhism. The Langar that is daily feature of all Gurudwaras has practically eliminated people dying from hunger in Punjab for last 600 years. We all know 10s of millions of people perished in Bengal during 1942 famine, much of that were Muslims. We also have examples of plight of Muslims in Afghanistan, parts of Pakistan, Darfur where religious charity could not deliver.
4. Xtian Conversion:
Whether its MK Gandhi, or Swami Vivekanand, or Dayanand Saraswati or innumerable saints, leaders, intellectuals opposed conversion agenda of missionaries. The first three personalities together represent a huge majority of Hindus in India.
What else do we need?
Its said, long abuse of Hinduism by missionaries, often from very top, created ground for Hindu revivalism of late 19th century. Today, this conversion by missionaries is becoming a god sent oppurtunity to Hindutva.
By the way, respected Xtian organization – the Bible Society of India’s (BSI) office in Srinagar was bombed few months back. Bombs were thrown to missionary schools they run in Kashmir. Govt of JK forced BSI to shitdown their schools, offices in Kashmir.
Why not a single Muslim intellectual protected? Why media almost kept mum?
Many tribal areas are hotbeds of conversion. The missionaries offer them education, economic security, health care. This is not free. Ultimately their aim is to increase the number of followers of their reiligon.
The governmnet has failed to reac out the poor in these areas. Religious organisations just take advantages of this.
Minority educational institutes, they have privileges for minorities.
This is discrimintaion. Some of the prestigious institutes managed by minorities(especially Christian) allow admission of students with 50 percent if he or she is of their faith.
Converting to any religion of choice is my birthright. How do you judge who are the ignorant masses. I converted to Christianity because Hinduism does not give me any rights. If I and my family convert back to Hinduism will they allow me and my family to be priests. Can my children be part of the udupi Asta Mathas or can they make a qualified dalit as the Shankarachraya of Srigeri Math. They wouldn’t even allow the dalits anywhere near. The hypocrysy of these people who are against conversion is shocking. They are against basic human rights to profess any religion of choice still they talk high sounding phrases. All these people do is commit violent acts. Barbarians.
Bajarang Dal (?) or someone else stoning church is a REACTION for the ACTION “Christians coverting poor hindus to Christinity”. Of course, this ACTION-REACTION chain continues further……
The above is accepted by all – learned hindu, not-so-learned hindu, Christians, Muslims, right-wing-hindu, left-wing-hindu and ALL. THE only concern seem to be “Violent” and “non-violent” reaction part.
About 50-60 ( I don’t know exact year) years back, great sage was invited by German Psychologists to give lecture on “Family System, Social health, violence etc.” And the sage agreed to talk only if they allow him to talk what he thinks. Upon agreement, Sage visited Germany and in the conference first he asked the gathered psychologists “How many of you are divorced” and the response was that almost 50% raised their hand. Then, sage went on “How can you people, trained psychologists can divorce? And, if you are divorced, how can you help ordinary people to unite in their family? How can you help socity to live peacfully/happliy?
Basically, all that I am trying to say here is that only very learned great minds can react in appropriate way. The rest react in immature way. While the maturity has SINGLEness, the other part has many-many manifestation.
Now let us consider this hypothetical scenarios — If some one ask us (including Dr. Nayeem) “Is your wife still enages in prostitution?” WHAT WILL BE OUR REACTION? I am sure, it will vary dramatically. ANd I am sure no-one will be surprised about the kind of reaction.
While we can easily say that NO ONE SHOULD REACT VIOLENTLY, it is not so easy to do even for highly educated lot. Leave alone ordinary people.
SO UNLESS, WE UNDERSTAND THE SYSTEM OF ACTION-REACTION and minimize harmful ACTIONS, society wont be peaceful. Today it is Hindu-Christian, tomorrow it may be MALE-FEMALE and another day it may be DALIT-UPPER_CASTE. At the bottom of human heart/mind, there is a lot of violence and that comes out in many forms and for many reasons.
PS – sorry to take some ungentle examples.
@John
Nobody is denying the discrimination still prevailing in bits and pieces of hindu society. We(as a country) have accepted that ppl have been discriminated and made discrimination an offence (constitutionally) and also provided reservation for the marginalised. So there is NO HYPOCRYSY.
I myself condemn the practice of having separate dining halls for Brahmins in temples and all such practices. But anybody gets the same treatement when it comes to darshana. So don’t say that dalits are not allowed inside the temple. Infact, in TN there are quite a few priests belonging to the SC /ST groups. Also, today it’s only our constitution that gives us any rights, neither hinduism nor christianity. I respect ur decission of choosing ur religion, but that does not approve all the methods the church follows.
http://www.hindu.com/2008/10/04/stories/2008100455851500.htm
This story throws some light on the problem form another angle……
Conversion is a touchy issue worldover.
@ Manu
There is discrimination even with Darshana. Even today some parts of Bengaluuru’s temples SCs dont enter the temple premises. They just pray from outside. I had urged them several times to enter the temple. But they refused to do so. The priests give them dirty looks and make them feel miserable if they are inside the temple, it seems. This was about 10 years ago or so. This kind of practices should be stopped.
Even today some temples like Mantralaya, Udupi, they serve food separately for Brahmins and non-brahmins.
Best is enlightenment thru equal edauction will only solve such evil and ugly practices.
Its all about how media comes out with a BIG cry..!! When Swamy Lakshmananandaji was killed, where were all these media ppl…? I am sure his death news found 3rd or 4th page in all news papers. & who can deny the contribution Swamy did for the tribals.
Its all political game here. Yes… there were attacks on curches which is I dont agree, but it was a result of what it was published in “Satyadarshini”. Has anyone got a chance to look at the pages of it..? I have …. & YES…. its feels like someone asking question ““Is your wife still enages in prostitution?” .
No one questions the charity the missionaries are doing but so are others like ramakrishna mission, chinmaya mission, some wings of sangh parivar etc. Its just that missionaries get more attention ‘Coz media loves to use word “MINORITY”…. & So are POLITICIANS..!!
Central govt keeps on giving warning to BJP led k’taka govt on the church attacks & its blindfold on whats happening on kashmir or even in orissa. They cannot talk against kashmir ‘coz it will hurt minorities & Cong will loose its vote bank.
Mr. Sivaraj patil it more concerned about giving warning to k’taka that he is forgetting the blasts all over the coutry is killing all countrymen…. hindu’s, muslim & X’tian.
John>>I converted to Christianity because Hinduism does not give me any rights.
There are 10s of 1000s of “Dalit Xtians” who are also reconverting into Hinduism, because they have understood they remained Dalit even after conversion.
90% of Indian Xtians are from lower starta of Indian society. How many of them are Bishops, religious authories appointed by the Pope? How many Popes have been black, non Europeans?
Not so long ago, Dr. King Junior visited India to learn from Gandhian experience for black rights.
ITS ENTIRELY UPTON YOU TO BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT- BUT YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO REDUCE HINDUISM TO CASTE AND HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSE.
IF YOU BEHAVE LIKE DR KING JUNIOR, THERE WILL BE TOLERANCE FROM HINDUS. BUT IF YOU BEHAVE INTOLERANT OF HINDUISM BEHAVE LIKE “NEW LIFE”- THE REACTION WILL BE INTOLERANCE.
Because, hate begets hate. Love begets love.
Thathagatha Mukerjee,
The fact that there are no popes who are blacks cannot be compared to Dalits unable to become shankracharyas. It is quite possible per the cannonical rules that a pope can be of any race or color or country or caste. But your Dharma Shastras has no such provision at all and it is explicitly mentioned that we Dalits are panchamas and outcastes. Firget contsting for these positions we don’t even have the right of even coming close to any of you pure Bhudevatas lest our shadows corrupt your purity. A dalit like myself will not be allowed to even interdine with the Brahmins in Karnataka in such places like Udupi, Mantralaya, Sringeri etc.
” IF YOU BEHAVE LIKE DR KING JUNIOR, THERE WILL BE TOLERANCE FROM HINDUS. BUT IF YOU BEHAVE INTOLERANT OF HINDUISM BEHAVE LIKE “NEW LIFE”- THE REACTION WILL BE INTOLERANCE.”
I am not sure if you and your ilk can provide a dictat on how I should behave. I can behave like anyone from Martin luther to Maloclm X to Bertrand Russel to Ambedkar and I will be fine according to the constituion of India as long as I comply by the rules. It is only Barabarians like yourself and people in the Sangh Parivar who talks of jungle rules.
I have not reduced Hinduism to caste and human rights abuse. You are poorly read in Indian History and all you know is some junk taught in RSS shakas. Hinduism has reduced us into caste right from Rig Veda to Manusmrithi, other dharmashastras and the behaviour and ghettoisation of untouchables like myself. No not me and my ilk but your barbarian religion who outcasted us. And now you want us to remain in your fold to increase your numbers. We were never part of your religion.
John Wilfred,
I wonder if you can associate random people, some of them sitting in the Western countries, shooting their mouth off and associate terror acts by Bajrang Dal to ‘Hindu action’.
And its funny that the same people jump up to condemn acts by others – Muslim, Christian, dalits, backward castes or anyone they see as their enemies.
When you talk to them – you should remember these people are no different from muslim people who justify terrorist actions of people who plant bombs or christians who support race violence in the name of religion. They are definitely not representative of the people who follow a religion, though they may act like its spokespersons.
Mostly they are just people with access to a computer and the internet and copious amount of free time :)
And dont expect any answers about why the dalits got and continue to get a raw deal from some people who still think like this. For them the caste system is part and parcel of hinduism and they will never stand up against it.
Mr. John Wilfred,
Swami lakshmananda was also a dalit. He was no brahmin. Even after 60 years of quota, why the lives of dalits has not changed much? Its because of the short sighted leaders that you have like mayavati , laloo yadav , mulayam blah blah who want you guys to stay the way you are i.e downtrodden so that they can keep their vote banks safe. How can giving quotas for higher education help if the education @ the school level is not available??
Please dont spew the venom on Hindus and brahmins. There were lots of upper caste people including gandhi, rajaji and others who have supported the dalit cause. Who said dalits arent let inside mantralaya, udupi and all?? Daily bhojanaa ellarigue irutte. Everyone gets entry these days.. Are you still in the pre-independence era? Dr. Raj, Jaggesh are not brahmins and they are great bhaktas of Raghavendra swami, do you think they arent allowed inside the temple premises. Please get your facts right.
You dont have the guts to answer Mr.Mukherjees question. You are just eviating from the top. If your faith preaches equality, why do you tag some as DALIT CHRISTIANS?? People living in glass house shouldnt throw stones @ others.
Neither the false pretenses nor the feigned sincerety can mask the inherent bias of the author. Mysuru Peshwa is spot on!
@John and AG
If Hinduism has flaws – real and imagined – then it is our problem. Not yours. If you don’t want it, you’re more than welcome to leave. I can assure you that Hindus are not in the business of “harvesting souls” or “increasing our flock”. Nobody has a problem with you or anybody converting if it is your conscious considered *choice*. The problem is when your ilk convert people with promises of money, miraculous cures, a harem of virgins, heaven and God-knows-what-else. And precisely why would that be a problem? Go figure.
Can we get Dr Nayeem’s position on the questions I raised earlier?
John: Abusing Hinduism is punishable under law. Show respect, earn respect. Appears u are a product of Madrasa run by a section of missionaries. I have no time for such polemic.
John Wilfred,
Its really sad that you havent understood what hinduism is all about. I am sure you are one of those souls misguided by books like satyadarshini. Let me tell you one thing. When the Hindus and especially brahmins pray Sarve janaaha sukhino bhavantu, they dont in particularly refer to a person of a caste a religion. Nor do they force upon others to follow their dharma. They dont preach my god is greater than yours. “Aakashat patitam toyam yatha gachhati saagaram, sarva deva namaskaara keshavan prati gacchati”. You say “t is quite possible per the cannonical rules that a pope can be of any race or color or country or caste. ” You are just hoping that might be possible. Why do you assume its not possible in Hindus? Many reforms have happened in the Hindu society for the past 200 years or so. Now all people get darshan @ all temples you quote. A day might not be far when all people can have food together. If you think your religion propounds equality? why this division into dalit christians?
Please dont utter nonsense about Vedas if you dont know them. All Hindu texts are open to interpretation. There are thousands of scholars who have written treatises on Vedas and Upanishads. Do you think you guys have the freedom to do that in your faith? Do you even know how difficult is a brahmins life, he has lead an austere life praying for the betterment of the society.
As per the Hindu scriptures itself, a brahmin has to perform so many daily rituals throughout his life span to attain salvation, but a shudra just needs to do his job whatever it is he is bound to attain salvation. A kshatriya by fighting in a war. A Vaishya by being fair in trade. An austere brahmin wont even touch another brahmin who hasnt took a bath and stuff like that. Why are you hell bent on eating with the brahmins, when there is a general anna dasoha for all, where people regardless of caste and creed dine @ all the above places you mentioned? There are schools being run by these maths, which dont specify only brahmin children allowed? In fact most of your schools usually have a quota for the ones from your community rite? Hai koi jawab??
@John
“Hinduism has reduced us into caste right from Rig Veda to Manusmrithi, other dharmashastras and the behaviour and ghettoisation of untouchables like myself.”
Yes, but thats the beauty of hinduism, if any part of the text becomes irrelevant at any point we can discard it. We don’t have to abide by and vouch for any one particular book. We accept that Vedas, Dharmasastras were written by MEN and it’s NOT a word of GOD. We are not forced to think of earth as the centre of the universe or oppose evolution bcos some book suggests otherwise. We can let go of what we feel is unjust and wrong. Also, texts like manusmriti have never been given any importance in hindu society. Today, we have done exactly that, we agree that we cannot continue with those divisions.
Also, u are completely wrong in saying that dalits were never a part of hinduism. They defnitely were….
@LOL
Yes even dalits get entry into temples in Mantralaya and Udupi, but the food is served in two different dining halls.
The way there are Dalit christians, there are Brahmin christians, Reddy Christians, Balija christians etc. so caste has infiltrated in other religions also
@Manu
The Manusmritis and puranas are man -“written”. Thus the contents are not god-created right?
Why people here at this Churumuri keep justifying their kind of Hindusim with quotes from man made puranas?
>The beauty of Hinduism lies in discarding it when it becomes irrelevant<
Who will discard and when it becomes irrelevant to WHOM?
Who is a Hindu?
“The problem is when your ilk convert people with promises of money, miraculous cures, a harem of virgins, heaven and God-knows-what-else.”
The problem is your ilk should stop generalizing about others.
I havent converted anyone, nor do I respect muslim or christian fanatics who put their religion ahead of their humanity. And personally I am not religious (I will leave that to when I am old).
But it looks like most supporters of bajrang dal style of hinduism belong to the same ilk as you mentioned. The ones who want to decide the lives and fate of others. The want to prevent others who want to better themselves in life by whatever means is available. If the dalits want to convert – give them good reason not to. Reform things so that they dont bear the brunt of the caste system. If does not matter if other religions in India have the caste system – the dalits who convert are better off economically and socially – and they are not blind to seeing that.
Instead you go around attacking the fundamental rights of the dalits to choose their religion! If they fall for money, miraculous cures, virgins or god-knows-what else, what is your problem? If they had opportunities to make money like you and I do – why would they want to convert in the first place? They would go to the hospital for cures and they would have time to think of other things in life and would not fall for virgins after death or ‘god-knows-what-else’.
If you want to take away their fundamental right – What do you have to offer them to prevent them from converting?
Stop to think this once, before blindly putting everyone who does not think like you, in one bracket.
@LOL,harish and Mukherjee
Ignore that John fellow.”EMPTY VESSELS MAKE MORE NOISE”!!! :D
>>The Manusmritis and puranas are man -”written”.
Missionaries abusing Manu is for political purpose. WILLIAM JONES , EARLY INDOLOGIST, WAS HUGELY RESPECTFUL TO MANU.
ST PAULS CATHEDRAL LONDON HAS A STATUE OF WILLIAM JONES HOLDING A BOOK OF MANUSMRITI. Manu was hailed as a major lawgiver in human history.
However, with rise of british middle class and evangelical activism, a section of British officials and missionaries started abusing Manu TO DIVIDE HINDUS, SHOW HINDUISM IN POOR LIGHT.
The history of India, Hinduism thus became a victim of Western judeo xtian bigger political agenda- another example of colonial prejudice.
With the rise of Indian middle class (which is mostly Hindu), now this project will meet massive opposition. Its a foregone conclusion that this abuse of Hinduism, denigration, forced, frudulent conversion will fail. In the process, it will rationalize Hindu right.
AG & Dr. Reddy;
Granted caste discrimination exists against Dalits…albeit at reduced levels. Granted there are a number of Temples that still discriminate amongst devotees.
But tell me Sir, why are not all Dalits, Christians or Muslims? Why are the Christians stuck at 2.5%…and let’s not be bashful about evangelizing the idolators….of course it’s high priority for the Church…you have your Pope to confirm that piece of information.
The same goes for Muslims. Their crudeness has driven folks away…so they resort to illegal migration and the rest.
Somebody asked….”Who is a Hindu?”…
I say….Do you call yourself a Hindu? Then you are. Fine place to start…
@AG –
what do I have to offer them?? What would *I* have to offer them?! *Why* in the first place should *I* offer them anything? Why? I don’t prevent them from going into any temple. If somebody prevents them from doing so, let them file criminal cases against them.. they’re entitled to the same laws as any of the other 100 crore Indians. If anything, they have special provisions in the law which protect their interests. In the name of social justice, we anyway already have great-great-grandchildren paying for the crimes of their great-great-grandfathers. What are you even whining about?!
The sore point is that they remain “Dalit” Christians even after they convert. Not that I care. And I’m sure they don’t either… because in the first place, they didnt convert to Christianity to escape their Dalit-hood! Or because they suddenly became interested in comparative theology and decided that the Bible suited their intellect better! They convert because they were promised money and a miraculous cure for everything from common cold to VD.
In the process they get conned, convert and die waiting for the miraculous cures instead of getting medical attention. In the process, their children become orphaned. In the process, they get ostracised by their families. In the process, families break up. In the process, social and familial unrest ensues. In the process, you come out with your “caste system in Hinduism” hogwash and expect us to buy it. wtf?!
They didn’t convert because of “evil Hindus” but because of *cheats* (look up section 420) in the garb of Xtian missionaries who, far from their stated objective of “liberating” the “oppressed classes” prey on their helplessness, poverty and illiteracy with the sole aim of “increasing their own flock”.. not “improving their lot”! What could be more pathetic? Like M Peshwa points out so lucidly.. no self-respecting people will accept help if “it must be accompanied by a self-righteous evangelical message”. And if they did, what respect would they command? or hope to command?
like I said, if you have a problem with H-ism, you are entitled to your right to choose your road to bliss. But after converting, just don’t come back and try to *con* people into following your path with promises of money and miraculous cures! And don’t you ask *me* what my problem is with that! Ask the law.. it is the law that has a problem with that. Conversion by deceit and when it sows social unrest is explicitly banned in certain states (including Orissa) and is implicitly banned by law in the whole country (you’re free expound, enunciate and propagate your faith.. but that by no stretch of imagination can be interpreted to mean that you can *cheat* to “increase your flock”!) …and you’re asking me what *my* problem is with that?! Pathetic!
You can continue to harp about the “caste system in Hinduism”.. but let me tell you, you’re doing yourself and your “Dalit” brethren great disservice by doing so. You’re only serving to deflect focus from the cheats who seek to “increase their own numbers” even if it comes with enormous human and social cost. The “flock” you speak for would be better served if you’d counsel them to seek medical attention for their ailments instead of waiting for a beam of light from the sky to fall upon them and heal them.
AG says: But it looks like most supporters of bajrang dal style of hinduism belong to the same ilk as you mentioned. The ones who want to decide the lives and fate of others. The want to prevent others who want to better themselves in life by whatever means is available. If the dalits want to convert – give them good reason not to. Reform things so that they dont bear the brunt of the caste system. If does not matter if other religions in India have the caste system – the dalits who convert are better off economically and socially – and they are not blind to seeing that.
Replace Bajrang Dal by Chrisitian Evanjelicals and Hinduism by Christianity in this article and it still holds valid.
FYI Mr.Anonymous Guy,
There are lots of organizations like Ramakrishna Mission, Iskcon, AOL, sidda ganga mutt, adi chunchangiri mutt etc which are also working for the upliftment of poor. Please dont forget that. These people dont harvest souls by luring people by money. They dont expect anything in return for the service done. Even after 60 years of independence and so many pro-dalit provisions in the constitution why the dalit situation is bad? Have you ever thought of it? Lets look @ the creamy layer issue itself, by including the creamy layer itself you are barring the economically poor dalits for coming up. There is a very cunning motive behind the creamy layer story. Firstly it will prevent poor dalits to get seats, Secondly it will also easy help secure seats for the sons and daughters of dalit heros,MPs and MLA’s. In such a small span countries like South Korea and Japan have shown tremendous progress. Then despite so many people speaking for dalits and so many leaders why their situation hasnt improved? Its because the dalits arent aware of their rights. Their leaders always say they are oppressed but never teach them of all the useful tools they have constitutionally. Havent enough opportunities been provided for them as per the laws?? You are fundamentally forgetting one fact that even after converting they dont gain social respect and dignity because they are tagged as dalit Christians. Do you have something to say for that? Now please dont say money is what matters, who cares for self-respect. So whats the big deal if they convert for money. :) So if you turn out to be a pauper one day will you embrace another religion for money ?
@Imposter
Your idea is not democratic. Ignoring will lead to another kind of discrimination. :Not giving space to other’s ideas.
All these people John Wifred, LOL, Harish, Mukherjee, Manu, AG etc are airing their viewpoints and discussing. It may lead to answers or questions or solutions, clarifications etc.
Let them do it.
@ Harish
a correction
About Japan, it did not develop in a short span of time. It has taken nearly 100 years. Japan lost almost everything during 2nd World War, But they had a literate population which in itself a great wealth. And 95 % of their population was literate by 1895 which even the Western societies had not achieved this.
South Korea has thrown democratic norms to dustbin. It is a dictator form of government. They are also under American Umbrella. In 1940’s Buddhism was observed by 90% of the popualtion, but now majority have embraced Chrisitianity and Buddhists populalion is between 5 to 10 percent.
SC and STs reservations: people who avail those facilities, keep availig all the time. The rural poor SCs/STs dont get the oppurtunities to avail those facilities. I had seen a Rajasthani ST family where 24 members were Civil servants either IAS or IPS. Atleast children of Civil servants above Class A (1) grade should not be allowed to use reservations.
@ Palahalli
Not like that. I wished people here could come out with their versions of definitions of someone being a ‘Hindu’.
I am sure there will be multiple, conflicting defnitions.
About the conversions: Some really go for the faith and some (more?) for economic benefits and eco security. People are free to practice the religion they want.
I have also seen some Bengali Brahmins embracing christianity. (I am not talking about British times: in the 1990’s atleast 3 bb s around me became Chrisitians.
@Sumne,
“Replace Bajrang Dal by Chrisitian Evanjelicals and Hinduism by Christianity in this article and it still holds valid.”
Sure. The Evangelicals – esp. their leaders in the west are perhaps more ruthless than the likes of Bajrang Dal can even imagine. Their strategies have been honed over years of playing games at a global level. They have destroyed entire cultures using ‘education’ and ‘civilizing’.
In fact I wont be surprised that on hearing about the violence against Christians in Manglore, if the leaders sitting in some church abroad, financing operations are rubbing their hands in glee and chuckling for the free publicity their particular brand of Christianity is getting.
But that still does not take away from the fact that the solution to the conversion (to christianity, islam, naxalism – anything) is not bullying dalits/backward castes and inflicting violence on them for converting to better their lives.
Our primary focus should be rooting out the caste system. It is not just the promotion of dalits, it is even the culture of inefficiency stemming out putting our caste ahead of other things. I keep hearing about local leaders, ‘avaru nammavarige thumba volledhmaadidhare’. That seems to be the ultimate praise for a leader! Even if that meant snatching things from someone instead of improving things overall.
BTW the conversions are an issue of caste – there is a fear among some Bajrangi type hindus that people from lower castes are converting en masse (though this fact itself does not seem to be borne out by whatever statistics is published in the media).
Treating dalits and people who are poor and misfortunate as ‘them’ (as opposed to us) and saying they are useless, they deserve what they get etc. will push them into the hands of whoever welcomes them. And using violence on them once they convert will not help either.
@Harish,
I basically agree with you on most of the points you have mentioned. Especially: “There are lots of organizations like Ramakrishna Mission, Iskcon, AOL, sidda ganga mutt, adi chunchangiri mutt etc which are also working for the upliftment of poor. Please dont forget that.”
Yes these organizations are doing exactly the work which is required. But these are small drops in the ocean (and I am quite aware of some of the activities of the sidda ganga and adi chunchangiri mutts which actually promote casteist feelings – but we can discuss that some other time). We need to do this at a national level, as a matter of government policy. Instead of blindly following policies like reservation, we need policies and direction so that each of us can be doing work of the kind these organizations are doing. Once the politicians realize that votes cannot be garnered purely by using caste – they will also turn to better things like population control, development etc. as their aims.
Maybe it is foolish to think this will happen. On the other hand the youth are getting smarter, and once the wheels move in the right direction, things like conversions will not even be issues of discussion.
About: “So if you turn out to be a pauper one day will you embrace another religion for money ?”
Like I said before, I personally dont care much for religion now. But when the situation comes, who knows – religion is a matter of personal choice.
And why do you think so many of the posters here have migrated to the West? Why did they not stay in India and work for the country? Money is a prime motivater in life for most people…
Slightly off-topic, a recent article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/08/middleeast.construction
See the references to Indians.
Things like this should never happen. We cannot rest until we gain our rightful place in the world.
@AG
What I noticed in India these days: It’s money which rules the roost than one’s caste. People would like to associate or support people with money even in their own caste.
One ‘community’ Sangha elections this september in Karnataka: a night before the actual voting took place, one vote was rated at ten thousand rupees. The voters who bother about the character of the candidate or his or her ability to deliver goods to the community or his or her intelligence, are in a small minority.
Candidates with money got elected. Candidates who did not spend money lost elections, they would have done yeoman service to their community. They are well read, well educated.
It’s very sad.
No values nothing.
The propaganda that Dalits and OBCs….are converting to Christianity en-masse, is fed by Christian evangelists themselves.
There is really something wrong in all this…if you think about it.
On the one hand…these fellows say…”Caste oppressed are converting because of…hmm..oppression”. In the same breath…they also say…”What conversions?? Our population has actually dropped in the last 60 years!”.
It’s like that other argument..”Conversions happen because Christianity is without caste and folks are happy and get educated”. But, “allow reservations for Dalit Christians!”
It was amusing to watch John Dayal admitting to open discrimination against Dalit Christians….albeit…”only in Tamil Nadu”.
Maybe…we should start by asking these missionaries; why our Dalits HAVE NOT converted en-masse yet….if at all.
Another thing; The Sangh Parivar have plenty of Dalits/OBCs within them. It’s another matter that you will never get caste based stats of their numbers. Not for any caste.
Population increasing and decreasing is not just due to conversions. That is a very minor thing. The main thing is the birth rate. Which is all more devastating in India since most people who have 2 or more children have them at a relatively younger age.
Also when a group talk about ‘their’ population in India, they usually mean their percentage of the total.
So if a group says, ‘We were X% of the population 50 years back and are only Y% now”, and Y happens to be less than X – does not mean their population dropped, it just means others bred faster.
Anyway if conversions are not a big deal at all – why the attacks on people in Orissa and Karnataka. Is it that some people just want a reason to inflict violence on people they consider backward whatever they do?
AG :
I don’t see how conversions can be “minor” to population increase. Our own experience in India’s East and North East bears out it’s tremendous impact on demographics.
Even in Kandhamal.
I understand the percentages…and that is why converting and propagandizing missionaries must explain why a huge percentage of our Dalits still remain Hindu. Because they could not be reached? :)
Conversions are a very big deal, Sir.
My point is that Dalits see through chicanery when they face one. Upper Caste or Christian. Due credit to them.
Orissa and Karnataka – I feel the best way to stop these conflicts in future would be to start with dialogue between Hindu and Christian groups. Missionary arrogance and the impulse to leverage extra national players must end.
Palahalli,
I thought you wanted to say something else in the previous mail – about false propaganda spread by Evangelist types that conversions are successful. But your next mail confuses me a little.
So you do acknowledge that people in the North East and India’s East did convert to Christianity in large numbers. From being Hindus I presume. Tribals, dalits, OBCs or whatever other ‘category’ they come under.
But you think Dalits (elsewhere in India?) see through the chicanery of upper castes and christians and you want to give due credit to them for that.
Okay.
I still dont understand how the violence inflicted on Christians in Karnataka (conflict?) will stop in the future by starting dialogs between Hindu and Christian ‘groups’? Which groups? And anyway if the Dalits and backward castes see through the missionaries and are not converting – why the violence on Christians in Mangalore?
And what of a dalit who may want to convert after hearing a christian preacher speak to them or induce them with education/money and hope of a better life socially and economically? Do you think they have the freedom to convert to christianity. Or do such theoretical things not matter? The dalits freedom of choice does not matter, and we should prevent them from converting at all costs – since we know what is good for them?
You seem to be clear on one thing (which probably was the sum of your posts):
Missionary arrogance and the impulse to leverage extra national players must end.
And I believe you are right in this point. But sadly we have nothing to offer the dalits to counter this but social and economic threats and violence. As things stand today in most parts of India – they are better off converting.
AG:
Not necessarily to drag this discussion further but let me clarify;
1. I was referring to Dalits, primarily..but extend to any section of Hindus.
2. By groups, I meant the Christian Church and Hindu Organizations. The same groups that represent parties to the conflict.
3. Why the violence? Something that dialog can hopefully address. Maybe the Church can be persuaded to stop tolerating mercenaries amongst them.
4. On conversions…No issues. Let the Church not cringe and whine when re-conversions take place.
5. Hindus have nothing to offer their worse off brethren you say? Consider this. Hindus from days gone by have allowed the State to interfere in their affairs. Be it Hindu code or cow slaughter (btw, I’m not against cow slaughter). Be it politically inspired social engineering of their society or be it reservations. Add to these non-State initiatives by Hindu organizations. This will irritate you but the RSS itself has spawned more social organizations than one cares to count.
You can, spit on a Hindu and abuse him of casteism…good chances he will keep quite and even agree with you. Till yesterday…he did the same when his gods and goddesses were made the butt of ridicule…you will notice some change there.
Palahalli,
You are right on the last point – pointing out to the Hindu about how casteism is negating the progress we are making as country, is probably of no use.
Maybe the problem is one of inactivity, inefficiency and inability to improve fast enough. For which we are to blame ourselves – upper caste, lower caste, dalit etc. If the RSS as a organization can provide an anti-dote, I for one would have nothing to say against them in other matters. But that hasnt happened so far, their focus seems to be fighting battles of political power within a corrupt system and battles against conversion etc. But again – that is their prerogative, who am I to comment.
Casteism is the bane of Hinduism. Other things are minor. It is one thing which will make one hindu doubt and mistrust and keep enough internal divisions for anyone else to exploit. It prevents us from solving our real problems of population, education, poverty. And makes us subordinate to other nations which have far less resources. This should not be insurmountable problems given the honest and hardworking nature of us as a people. And I dont see any organization which professes to be a protector of Hinduism doing much in this regard. The last great reformers belonged to the last century. Currently we are interested in token issues like ‘protecting our gods and godesses against the butt of ridicule’ (BTW this is nothing new – at all points in time, there have been protests of this nature when one of our myriad deities have been made fun of), banning cow slaughter etc. – which dont really matter in the bigger scheme of things.
In India castism in not just in Hinduism. It is present in all religious beliefs practised in India or among Indians..