PALINI R. SWAMY writes from Bangalore: In the six days since the half-truths came out, the Satyam saga has played to script. The stock’s value has plunged, employees careers have been endangered, Hyderabad’s image has taken a hit, and the nation’s reputation has been somewhat badgered.
What has also been on expected lines has been the collective wisdom of the IT czars.
On television and in the papers, wise sages who cannot even pronounce Ramalinga Raju‘s name properly, have said it was a “one-off” case. Messiahs have said this would not hit India Inc provided the government acted quickly. And the “body builders” have said “these” are the steps the government to limit the damage.
While much of this advice is good, it’s the bit about the government that is the story. And that is what nobody is talking about in the melee.
Which is, that for all the grand-standing of the Narayana Murthys and Azim Premjis, the truth is the IT industry is very heavily dependent on the “State” to take birth, take its first steps, and survive and thrive.
It takes a fraud like Satyam’s to separate the hype from hard reality.
For years, the IT industry’s proud albeit ridiculous boast has been that it is a baby of liberalisation. That its birth, rise and growth has been in spite of the government, not because of it. That the government had no role and that the longer the government stays out of it, the better. Etcetera.
Blissfully ignored has been role of the government in creating the scaffolding for the IT industry to stand on—the accent on English in primary education, the setting up of engineering colleges, the allotment of massive tracts of land for the IT companies, the tax holidays in the initial years. Etcetera.
Can any one of the mahatmas proffering their free advice to the government today after the Satyam saga claim that the government had no role, and has no role?
Who are the IT chiefs appealing to act fast to save them and India Inc? The government. Who do Satyam’s employees look for support? The government. Who do Satyam’s investors and shareholders look to for help? The government. Who sacked the old crooks and appointed a new board? The government. Who is the new management appealing to for infusion of liquidity to tide over the crisis? The government. Etcetera.
It is all very well to mouth the fair-weather cliche that the government should play the role of a facilitator. But it is the tension of trouble that reveals the true colours.
As I write this, the crawlers say “PM closely monitoring Satyam issue, holds meetings with Fin Min, RBI officials”, “PM directed cabinet secretary for coordinated response to Satyam”, etc.
If the IT industry owes its towering rise and existence to itself, why is the word “government” on the lips of so many of its spokespersons today? And if the suits in NASSCOM could solve all their problems on their own, why are we seeing the very earthy P.C. Gupta (minister for company affairs) on TV so often?
In itself, this is not surprising. Even in the cradle of capitalism, the economic meltdown has seen the auto majors and banks depending on the government to bail them out. But Indian IT has lived in a state of denial, and lapped around in it. It’s time they woke up and smelt the coffee.
Filter coffee, presumably.
It is very much possible that the large portion of this 7800 Crore of Satyam investors stiffened money now sitting safe in the bank accounts or converted into, cash currencies and valuable assets, properties of B. R. Raju, family members, close relatives, and the associates involved in this fraud!
However it would be highly unlikely that the Satyam fraud investigating agencies ever will be able to detect or find out those bank accounts and the valuable assets because most of those bank accounts , properties are cleverly hidden under bogus or fake ID documents of those culprits.
To prevent people from having the fake ID bank accounts and owning valuable assets properties under the bogus name and to engage in all sorts of illicit money transaction or corruptions including this fraud; I urge the Government to “bring in Mandatory Biometric Identity MBID in all bank accounts, thereby making all money transaction above a given amount (specially when it comes to large sums of money and the things of social security matters) only through the bank to the bank account called Mandatory Electronic Money Transaction.
The Satyam fraud investigating agencies would have easily detected and immediately recovered all the money and the properties made by the Satyam fraud if the above mentioned MBID/MEMT bank account money transaction policy in place. Most probably such fraud would not have happened there in the first place!
World Bank has banned Wipro now. Hope this does not lead to some kind of domino effect for our labor arbitrage IT shops.
BTW what do the folks who defended the outsourcing labor shops when this blog even brought up issues such as land grab, the harm they have done to Bangalore and its culture etc., have to say now? Where are these defenders of the free market (or rather land, labor and visa frauds)?
The ‘owners’ of outsourcing companies are safe though – the tax breaks have been availed off for years, the land has been grabbed and other solid assets have been consolidated. Unless they get caught like Raju was (though it is hard to believe TCS, Wipro, Infy etc. are run as unprofessionally as Satyam was).
” Who are the IT chiefs appealing to act fast to save them and India Inc? The government. Who do Satyam’s employees look for support? The government. Who do Satyam’s investors and shareholders look to for help? The government. Who sacked the old crooks and appointed a new board? The government. Who is the new management appealing to for infusion of liquidity to tide over the crisis? The government. Etcetera. ”
If the regulator, i.e the government did its job, none of this would have happened in the first place. That is the only role of the gov’t: facilitate and regulate or in simple terms create a playground, get children to play there and make sure everybody plays fair. Now everybody seems to “run to the gov’t” because that is the root cause of all the problem. All over the world this is the problem. The so called gov’ts didnt do their main job of regulation and now they have become the “support” of last resort.
Ms. Palini Swamy please have some basic understanding of economics before writing an article like this. This is nothing but the standard argument of our comrades Yechuri et.al, the rulers of waste bengal.
Unfortunately this kind of argument is the most logical reaction of people all over the world and hence the conditions will get a lot worse.
After the WB banned Satyam now its the turn of Wipro & Megasoft,who is next.When the tide goes down lot of junk comes to the fore.
An excellent article by Palini Swamy! I have argued time and again that Indian IT led by Infosys and others were not playing by the free-market rules. As Swamy says, “For years, the IT industry’s proud albeit ridiculous boast has been that it is a baby of liberalisation. That its birth, rise and growth has been in spite of the government, not because of it. That the government had no role and that the longer the government stays out of it, the better. Etcetera.
Blissfully ignored has been role of the government in creating the scaffolding for the IT industry to stand on—the accent on English in primary education, the setting up of engineering colleges, the allotment of massive tracts of land for the IT companies, the tax holidays in the initial years. Etcetera.
Can any one of the mahatmas proffering their free advice to the government today after the Satyam saga claim that the government had no role, and has no role?
Who are the IT chiefs appealing to act fast to save them and India Inc? The government. Who do Satyam’s employees look for support? The government. Who do Satyam’s investors and shareholders look to for help? The government. Who sacked the old crooks and appointed a new board? The government. Who is the new management appealing to for infusion of liquidity to tide over the crisis? The government. Etcetera.
…”
I am now wondering what happens to the ‘Grander than the Parliament building’ costing 1200 crores plus that was being built in Infosys Mysore–a showcase for the ultimate monument in unearned money! :)
Raju with Naidu and Reddy, Murthy with SMK. This is the stuff our champions are made of!
IT firms Curry ( favour) Leaves Strategy
Congrats Palini for superb post ! IT firms are the chaalu lot. Their lobbying skills are always the best. They will cry hoarse, pressurise Govt when needed and drop them when they dont need them.
IT Firms use govt like karibevu ( curry leaves)..dip, squeeze and throw.
Use and throw, thats the trick that these firms have excelled in playing.
Dear Palani,
I have no idea about your background, but reading your article, i think you are one of the safe and sound salaried class. You have no idea of the harassment by the Government babus.
It is my firm belief that only those industries will prosper in the long run, which do not depend on any subsidy from the govt.
And most of the industries has bloomed inspite of the govt and not because of it.
IT is also one industry where Govt interference is minimal, hence it has prospered.
hahaha…have to laugh at some of the comments here, the entire scam is the fault of the govt. Author has no idea of harassment by government babus…get a life!!!
@Kariahaida:
1.Govt. rules and regulations are made on the assumption that people for whom the rules are meant will follow that rules, thereby creating a fair “playground” as u term it. Sadly the govt. cannot keep track of 1.1x billion ppl, where in the size of population trying to avoid payin taxes and govt. revenues far exceeds the size of population willing to work with the govt. for local n global benefit.
2. If the govt. did start regulating on a more serious note and on a stricter note, ppl like u will go on strike n create a nuisance to a lot of other working ppl on basis that govt- interference is hindering our progress.
3. Wasn’t it pro-capitalism ppl like u who supported private auditing agencies like PWC, u know more free enterprise and free market n suff like that? In this case the two suspects/culprits are the auditing agency which signed off on the a audit sheets which happens to be a pvt. company and of course the now notorious Raju.
4.Stop condemning communism all the time, we all know every system has its pros and cons…one way wud be to look at the former USSR and cuba and say communism failed or it wud be another way to see china, our biggest competitor in many aspects and ahead of us in many others, and say commuism works albeit on diff principles as democracy and capitalism!
4. u speak about understanding the economy, u talking about theoretical economics and economy or the practical part of it???
@nilesh
what is safe and sound salaried class? and pray tell what are the harassments u face by the govt. babus? and yes, do u pay them off to get ur work done, or do u bend the rules to get ur work done?
Wonderful and succinct piece by Palini Swamy. For long the IT industry in India has worn a chip on its shoulder, perpetuating the notion that it has flourished in spite of the government. The fact is that if it wasn’t for the government’s red carpet welcome and hospitality, the ‘exponential’ growth would not have taken place to begin with!
@ Karihaida: The industry has resisted any attempt to be regulated, wanting the government to provide sops, and not get in the way afterward. This was largely supported by most Indians who saw the opportunity to be a part of the this growth, instead of paying any attention to strengthening the governance mechanism.
@ nilesh: The IT industry has definitely prospered because of the government, and without the tax breaks and cheap land and infrastructure support that was handed out to them, they would not be the grand success story that they think they are…
Brilliant post by Palani
When IT was making money, govt was asked to shut up and not interfere
And now that one of their own men’s cheddis have dropped to the ground, these IT people are looking up to the govt. to save their honour.
In other words:
When I have fun, don’t join me. When I am in trouble, come help me.
Great piece! Well said!
After the (IT) party is over, the govt. has been asked to come clean the mess.
Mr. Palani Swamy,
After all this rant, what is your solution? Government takeover of all IT companies and move them to West Bengal (minus, of course, Nandigram where the CPI(M) has thankfully lost!!)
Vinutha Mallya Says: “@ Karihaida: The industry has resisted any attempt to be regulated, wanting the government to provide sops, and not get in the way afterward. This was largely supported by most Indians who saw the opportunity to be a part of the this growth, instead of paying any attention to strengthening the governance mechanism.”
Pray, tell me Vinutha , is this only done by IT industries? Which industry does not do this?
The whole point is after every scam, we get better processes that REDUCES the probability of future scams. After Enron, we got S-Ox rules. After Satyam, the company law may be changed (and definitely for the better). There is simply no point pointing fingers at IT industry or the Government.
For all the Govt-for-everything-enthusiasts be aware that even Govt banks have failed (Indian Bank scam, remember??) and Govt financial institutions had to be bailed out (UTI). Now with better RBI laws, UTI and Indian Bank have become better running institutions.
Dear Prajwal,
Try starting a business, or what try getting a Driving licence, or have you got a passport without paying tips to the constable. If you can honestly say
that you have not paid any thing, then I agree there is no harassment.
A decade back, i too used to refuse to pay any bride to any one, In my passport case I refused to pay tips and the cops send false report to the passport officer, and ultimately i had to go to the high court and get my passport, ofcourse i did not bribe Rs. 50/- but had to spend 10 time that amount on lawyer fees etc.
Still in my personal life i never bride, i still fight. However it is impossible to do so in business. The babus have so many laws, notification etc, which only they know, and so to buy peace, one has to bride.
@prajwal,
” 1.Govt. rules and regulations are made on the assumption that people for whom the rules are meant will follow that rules, thereby creating a fair “playground” as u term it. Sadly the govt. cannot keep track of 1.1x billion ppl, where in the size of population trying to avoid payin taxes and govt. revenues far exceeds the size of population willing to work with the govt. for local n global benefit. ”
That is the primary job of the gov’t, not running a condom factory among others. If the gov’t just assumes that everyone will follow rules, what is the need for police? The people agree on a certain set of rules, i.e our constitution and elects the gov’t to enforce it. Size of the populace should never matter. In this case the primary regulator is SEBI and it failed in its job.
“2. If the govt. did start regulating on a more serious note and on a stricter note, ppl like u will go on strike n create a nuisance to a lot of other working ppl on basis that govt- interference is hindering our progress.”
If anybody resists any regulation, i.e enforcement of the laws, they must be prosecuted. No exceptions. If the gov’t is afraid of strikes, then it needs to be replaced. But look around and see how cause strikes. More often than not it is the gov’t employees. For example in WB, the ruling gov’t itself will call for bandh :)
“3. Wasn’t it pro-capitalism ppl like u who supported private auditing agencies like PWC, u know more free enterprise and free market n suff like that? In this case the two suspects/culprits are the auditing agency which signed off on the a audit sheets which happens to be a pvt. company and of course the now notorious Raju.”
If the auditor is found to be guilty then they along with the company management must be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. You sound like you are calling for gov’t auditors. I can only say be careful what you wish for. Just look at how well the gov’t auditor, i.e Comptroller and auditor of India audits the various gov’t departments.
“4.Stop condemning communism all the time, we all know every system has its pros and cons…one way wud be to look at the former USSR and cuba and say communism failed or it wud be another way to see china, our biggest competitor in many aspects and ahead of us in many others, and say commuism works albeit on diff principles as democracy and capitalism!”
Communism will never work. You never get to see to darker aspects of China. I can only say wait a lil longer and by the end of the year you will see the real China. This is not saying that we will be in better shape :)
“4. u speak about understanding the economy, u talking about theoretical economics and economy or the practical part of it???”
No theory, only practice. Economics is common sense. It is not science.
@Vinutha Mallya,
the regulator I talk about is the market regulator i.e SEBI. Good god we don’t need another regulator for IT industry.
The comments here, as expected, are the most logical reactions of people irrespective of country and that is why we (world) are headed for disaster.
@DB,
you are sounding like JD(sons).
It’s the inability or ability to find oppurtunities to make money in implementing laws by the babus and the politicians have created the mess. It’s easy/trend to blame an industry/company when it falls, what people faile to realize is the jobs (both direct and indirect) the industry created, the amount of revenue the government generated. Why blame IT industry or any industry for that matter, try starting a business you will know/experince what all the ways Babus/Politicians would make you pay bribe even for the smallest thing.
What we need/Atleast hope the Satyam scan to trigger is
1. Revisiting the policies which are as old as our politiicians to accomdate faster responses without too much of an interference
2. Figuring out innovative ways to cut down corruption at all levels
Folks, this is an accounting scam. It has got very little to do with the industry, i.e IT. Infact this no more a scam than when the finance minister gives one more sundry subsidy and says they will issue “bonds” to cover it :) In both cases it is showing money when there is none.
“Unfortunately this kind of argument is the most (ill)logical reaction of people all over the world and hence the conditions will get a lot worse.”
– I have made one correction to Karihaida’s post. Else I agree wholly with him.
Sometime back there was talk of sales of Das Kapital going up :)
Now, Prajwal talks of life numbing Communism’s “pros and cons”..and China’s “example”.
All very safely ensconced in free democracies, I’m sure.
Like Goldstar pointed out, Government establishments have failed miserably too and more importantly, degraded..nullified and ultimately slaughtered our spirit and left it all out to dry. That’s the true meaning of giving Government back it’s unfettered crown.
I’m not surprised to see all of these buried skeletons suddenly walk.
But then, let’s make these skeletons answer some questions before they can pass.
Tax payers money for Satyam bailout
http://realitycheck.wordpress.com/
Satyam fraud, unravelling the mystery
http://www.sathyamurthy.com/2009/01/07/satyam-fraud-unravelling-the-mystery/
O Bleddy hell. It seems like some people at churumuri have a major grouse against the ‘IT Industry’, ostensibly because it has ‘spoilt Bangalore’s culture’, and sundry other reasons. If Madurai or Vijaywada had grown instead of Bangalore, these same people would have cribbed, cried and wailed that we Kannadigas are only good for filter-coffee and masala dosa. Seriously, get a life.
@Vinay
To the best of my knowledge we have been debating about fraud committed by a company(ies). I don’t think anyone is talking about “culture” and sundry other reasons. Looks like you are the one who needs to stop thinking that any criticism against IT industry is by cribbers/loosers and those who have no life!
Sandesh:
Have you read all the comments? I think you haven’t. There is a strain of IT bashing that seems to have become the fashion in Bangalore, and these comments reflect that :
Bomma: “BTW what do the folks who defended the outsourcing labor shops when this blog even brought up issues such as land grab, the harm they have done to Bangalore and its culture etc., have to say now? Where are these defenders of the free market (or rather land, labor and visa frauds)?”
Doddi Buddi: “I am now wondering what happens to the ‘Grander than the Parliament building’ costing 1200 crores plus that was being built in Infosys Mysore–a showcase for the ultimate monument in unearned money! :)”
Andy: “IT firms are the chaalu lot. Their lobbying skills are always the best. They will cry hoarse, pressurise Govt when needed and drop them when they dont need them.”
Vinutha Mallya: “Wonderful and succinct piece by Palini Swamy. For long the IT industry in India has worn a chip on its shoulder, perpetuating the notion t…”
If the IT industry has a grand image, it is the media, and the ‘public’ who have given it that image. Looking at some of the other comments on this page, it is apparent that there are people would love to go back to the “good old days” when it took years to get a telephone line, Doordarshan was the ultimate in entertainment, Maruti 800 was the ultimate fulfillment, etc. etc. etc.
@ andy: ur comment that the IT lot is a ‘chaalu lot’ smacks of hypocrisy, u mean that people in other industry are white as milk???, gimme a break. Satyam was a fraud , from an accounting and governance perspective , criticize the guys for that rather than taking a swipe at the entire industry.
“it is apparent that there are people would love to go back to the “good old days” when it took years to get a telephone line, Doordarshan was the ultimate in entertainment, Maruti 800 was the ultimate fulfillment, etc. etc. etc.”
Maybe, maybe not. What ultimate fulfillment have your ‘touch-me-not’ outsourcing labour shops brought to Bangalore and Karnataka?
What is ‘ultimate fulfillment’ for you? Watching mindless cable shows and driving on traffic clogged roads in a honda city?
What have you got to say besides pasting others comments and passing mindless comments like ‘get a life’?
Say something interesting or thought provoking. Or you seem to be the one who needs to get a life.
Vinay
I am not trying to nitpick here.. but among the comments that you have quoted, only the one by Bomma mentions “culture”. Other comments are about land grabbing accusations which, I think, are fair to be brought up. I certainly am not suggesting that we should go back to good ol’ days but that IT companies should not feel that they are entitled to everything without shouldering responsibility.
All counter arguments can be for the sake of it. Palani is right.
Below the neck all men and women are the same. It dosent make difference. I mean Govt regulators, watch dogs, refree nothing will change things unless man limits his greed.
The system has allowed a fraud for 7 years which is unimaginable. Let us admit we are a corrupt country and as long as we are one there are people who can exploit. Who all have been tainted will be known when the skeleton is unearthed.
In Indian accounting system this kind of revenue booking and accounting is common among companies. No matter who says what each one know his cats and will not let ithem out of the bag easily. Satyam is an aberration because of the length of time and volumes.
IT has contributed to an unbalanced economy for India. There are no perfect business models, only ethical business models. The day business understands this the whole world will be blessed with stability of economy.
Growth by natute cannot tolerate abnormalities. Steady growth is good for all.
Bomma – You say IT/ITES are “Labor Shops” that indulge in “Touch me not’ism'”…
– I don’t understand what you mean by these phrases. Since I work for one such “labor shop”, i’d like to understand from you.
bomma:
You want something “interesting and thought provoking”? Do you? Well, here’s something that will provoke you:
You are a hypocrite, who is using Internet Explorer (Made in Microsoft India) to type crap. You are a brainless fool to call all IT companies in Bangalore “labor shops”. Are you aware that Oracle, Intel, Philips, AMD, Microsoft, Informatica, etc. etc. etc. all have their R&D and software development centers in Bangalore? But then I am almost sure that you don’t know shit about these things. You seem to be the prime example of the all-too-common moron who hears a few things about ‘IT’ and ‘Software’ on TV, and thinks that 80% of the ‘IT guys’ are in Infosys, the remaining in Wipro and TCS.
Added to this the fact that you are yet another of those ‘head-in-the-ass’ types who wail, whine and rant: ‘IT destroyed the city’, ‘IT destroyed the culture’, ‘IT destroyed the traffic’, ‘IT destroyed …..’, etc. etc., yet you do not recognize the TREMENDOUS employment IT has generated for hundreds of thousands of people, APART from the IT folks themselves. Shameless people like you crib about the “IT culture of heavy spending corrupting Bangalore” (whatever that half-ass statement means). Try saying that to a driver who depends on IT guys to earn his bread. Or to an attendant in a shopping mall who would be unemployed and homeless but for IT. The list can go on and on.
Guess what – IT provides a means of livelihood to many many millions MORE than it directly employs. And THIS, is what IT has brought to Bangalore. All those millions care a pig’s ass for your ‘culture’, they need to eat, and survive. Hypocrites like you can afford to eat your stomach-full of ragi-mudde, fart and belch for good effect, and crib about Bangalore’s ‘lost culture’, expressing your views through a medium that has been designed by the people you are cribbing about.
This is what I have to say, besides passing “mindless comments”. Even though this is obvious to anyone with reasonable intelligence, I thought it was necessary to explicitly drum this into your thick skull.
Interesting enough? ‘Thought provoking’ enough??
Get a life.
Sandesh:
Fair enough, but an IT company, or ANY company for that matter, will try to maximize revenues through lobbying and pressure. Infy, Wipro, and the big guys don’t need tax breaks and subsidized land anymore, but they will certainly ask for it. These entities EXIST to make profits. All companies do. ‘Land grabbing’ is a strong word, and a wrong word in my opinion.
Satyam scam, or no scam, IT companies are still among the most honestly and transparently run in India. What if this level of exposure and public discussion were to be given to real-estate giants?
People know that Narayana Murthy or Azim Premji will not land at your doorstep with a band of thugs, or send someone to shoot you dead, so IT-bashing is among the safest occupations. Now try exposing Sobha, Purvankara, or best of all – PRESTIGE constructions.
Yes! The Government prepares the playgrounds as well as rules for these corporates to play around. These corporates play foul with the Government (read Public) by breaking rules, while the umpires (regulators) look the other way.
Day in and day out thousands of unfortunate and unfashionable (read villagers) Indian citizens die due to hunger, malnutrition, preventable diseases and lack of health care. Let alone playgrounds, even burial grounds are not provided by the government to these people.
There is no bail-out to such people except an early call-out from the game by the Great Umpire!
@nilesh
I did get my drivers license after 1 day of giving my test. I got my international driving license on the same day as applying for it. My old passport had expired, so i applied at the passport office and got the new one in less than a month and that too without even applying for the tatkal scheme, which if i had used i wud have gotten with 1 working week. AND YES, I DID ALL THIS WITHOUT BRIBING ANY GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE INVOLVED IN THIS PROCESS…NOR DID I GET MY JOB DONE THRU TOUTS/AGENTS/ whatever u want to call them, i applied directly at the respective offices(RTO and passport office), submitted the required documents in correct order on time and i had no problems with either of the tasks that u mentioned. As far as starting up own business is concerned, my father did about 20 yrs ago and he did not bribe anyone to start it! So i fail to see ur point od Babus HARASSMENT all the time. I agree it happens but its not as bad as u potray it either.
@Karihaida
I fail to understand this logic of asking the government to control people without sharing with them the control over bodies/organisations in which people are involved. Don’t u get it, irrespective of whether it is govt. employment that we talk about, or the private sector emplyment like satyam et.al., it is made up of ppl, common ppl like u n me who are supposed to follow the rules/ regulations set down in our lawbooks. If ppl on the pvt sector can scam and fraud, why do expect the ppl on the other side not to do the same. The only solution to this is that we need to change our way of thinking, it doesnt matter whether u are on the govt side/ on the public side.
About the main job of the govt., it is to govern, yes; By the text book definition of a democratic govt., it is a govt. by the ppl, for the ppl and of the ppl. So there is a good chance that a majority of the population disagrees with u in sayin this is the main job of the govt. then what?
U say that if someone strikes/ breaks the law they shud be prosecuted. Lets take a current example.
the strike by the lorry/truckers union and the oil industry. The govt. said the oil industry’s strike wud be illegal, but they still went ahead with the strike. So what now? Prosecute them? And then what?
If they are prosecuted, then the govt. will have to bring in an emergency act and hence they will have to bring in the army and the railways et. al. to regulate these company’S holdings and thence to ensure a supply of essential commodities. I ll bet anything that there will be a GOOD number of CAPITALISTS who will protest agianst this regulation of essential commodities as unnecessary, harmful to economy in the free market, and as Communist propaganda…So what then, in such a situation would be ur solution?
QED, irrespective of whether u are communist or capitalis there are pros and cons to the system, just because communism follows diff principles and basis does not mean it is worse than capitalism. The two cannot be compared because Capitalism focuses a lot more on individual freedom in economy and communism bases its principles on uplifting the entire society at the same time.
p.s. Don’t give me examples of ex USSR and W.Bengal and corruption in communism, I can pull the same line on capitalism too. Corruption hindering economic growth is present in both communism/ capitalism. The effect is jus less pronounced cos as i said capitalism is more pro-individual oriented!
Vinay,
Yaake ashtu sittu. Really you need a life :) And stop using IE/Windows, is bad for your health. But then you probably dont know any better.
Palahalli,
Live happily contributing to the ‘growth’ of your labor shop :)
@Vinay
Sry dude, i just had to come out and say this.
More than half the companies that u claim do RnD just charge extremely high prices for writing software.
U know all these IT companies which do simulations and design analysis for companies abroad, well here is a fact, a lot of ppl employed in these companies have no idea of why they are using a particular option in a particular software to solve a problem, they are using it because statistically and emperically(by a rule of thumb if u will) it has yielded “satisfactory results” more often. That makes them a labour shop.
And u talk of RnD, if these companies have so many RnD facilities, i cannot understand why we produce such FEW doctorates/PhD/researchers and pure research oriented computer professionals, u know ones who develop better numerics/better algorithms / solver schemes??? I mean computers are supposed to be maths oriented technology aren’t they?
Lastly ,a lot of software is available as freeware/open source material which are cheaper and in many cases better than the Proprietary Microsoft/Phillips et. al. For reference u can look to Novell which JUST packages a lot of free software into the Linux distribution OpenSUSE!, so u see, its not just IT professionals who write codes and hence can claim to be sole contributors to the industry. A lot of ppl who aren’t employed in this industry are also writing Codes and are doing a good job of it too!
All the above point to IT companies being labour shops. of course not to forget IT companies do not seem to believe in the concept of personal/family time, cos every single IT person i know/ have met is overworked and barely gets a weekend off for himself/herself, so i guess that rules out the personal development of any IT employee who is advancing careerwise.
@Prajwal,
” I fail to understand this logic of asking the government to control people without sharing with them the control over bodies/organisations in which people are involved…. ”
Sorry I lost you there. Are you implying that the gov’t (ex police) should have a say in how you run your house,life?
Why are most of you reacting to the others. I wish to understand.
The biggest problem with us is we react to everything and look for even a minute provocation to react and never to respond.
Thogh India could contribute a great deal to stability in all respects, every one reacts, including business, stock market, Governments, bureaucrats.
Reaction is being subjective. Responding is being objective.
IT Employees can live without a job for an year or two since they have earned and saved much. Besides they have earned so much to even upset the delivcate balance of the economy.
This is a vulgar stunt by the Congress in an election year.
IF THE GOVT WISH TO BAIL OUT LET IT BAIL OUT THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY SUFFERING FROM RECESSION. WHAT ABOUT EMPLOYEES IN OTHER INDUSTRIES WHO ARE LOOSING JOBS? GOVT SHOULD NOT INDULGE IN VOTE BANK POLITICS.
Truely, this is the time NRN and Azim Ji and others learn and contrubite their obscene profits 25-30% to the other sections of the society too. All round Development of India is the need of the hour. It will ensure a strong and stable economy. The top creamy layer of IT/ ITES should look at the perspective as a whole an not as individual entities.
What Infosys Foundation and Wipro Foundation etc are doing for the poorer sections is far below their abilities.
The Government should look at other sections. If we loose a Satyam, it may not matter much. Believe me whatever changes are brought into management, 70% of the current Satyam Clients (especailly all overseas)will not do business with Satyam for the next two years. Come what may, most of these companies follow ethical business practices to such an extent they avoid exposure to Satyam like companies. This is the reason why Wipro kept its blacklisting by WB under the carpet for so long. Thay revealed it when they had no other option but to do. The WB decision will definetely come as a poser when they negotiate new contracts.
In the manner of Satyam we have lost several organisations 9many Public Sector giants) in the past. loosing these did not spell doom for our economy. The industry has the capacity to digest and find a way forward to move.
How many Satyams can Govt bail out in future? Is the Govt willing to answer the other let down sections of the society with such bailouts? What will the Govt negoitate with Satyam and its employees for the bailout package? Will Satyam pay 25% or so nett profit (industry average) to the Govt. If so what is the guarantee. Anything that is given free has no value. Freebies are the ones that destroys the economy.
The Govt has formed a board and is now paying their salaries. This itseldf id too much. Stock market investors have run the risk. They cant ask to be compensated when they loose, since any how they do not share their profits with the Govt. Risk is a risk is a risk.
The Govt should stay away from all these as it has always done inthe liberalised economy. We are a different economy compered to US and let the Govt not draw lessons from US bail outs.
One more aspect is that, if Satyam looses, Infosys/ Wipro/ TCS or someone surely gains. Satyam Employees have an option to ask for a Infy/ Wipro/TCS take over. Or they can join any of these as they stand to gain and will have to expand their work force. Let the private sector help themselves.
No double standards by the Govt.
Prajwal/Bomma – Please define “labor shops”.
Whether IT or any any other sector, the role of Govt in the development of Trade and Industry is unavoidable. Govt builds infrastructure – say physical, social and economic, puts in place the regulatory structure and provides help or assistance – where justified. Extent and degree of these roles depend on the political ideology practised by the Govt namely Market economy, Socialism etc
However, IT people have gone around world boosting that they have grown on their own. Indian middle class which is always keen to run down the establishment, bought such stories and made IT guys heroes of liberalisation.
But, Satyam has revealed the truth !
Prajwal:
You are extending and enhancing the definition of “labor shop”. R&D, Product Development and consulting are not considered “labor shops” generally. How about letting me know what your view of a “labor shop” is?
And let’s assume for a moment that all software companies in India are labor shops, and every employee is into donkey’s work. If we assume this, I say, SO WHAT? If you don’t like the industry stay away. At least it is providing a means of survival to millions of people!
Open source software is not even a blip on the horizon (yet). If you think that you can place it in the same league as the rest, you don’t know much about the industry, barring what you’ve read in magazines and online articles. I don’t want to discuss childish issues with you.
This point of ‘weekend work and lack of personal development’ is an over-exaggerated and stereotype image of the entire industry. The majority of such ‘donkey sloggers’ can be found in our Desi companies (Infosys, Wipro, TCS…..). BUT, even in these so-called ‘sweat shops’, the working weekends an average employee puts in is very low. Try walking into a few of these offices on a weekend and see for yourself??
The image of a ‘IT guy’ is: high earning, high spending, ‘hard-working’, geek/techie, zero personal life and interests. This is all nonsense stereotyping. Hardly anyone works on weekends for more than a few weeks at a stretch, generally during ‘critical phases’ only.
Palahalli,
Please do it yourself. Or use google search in your ample spare time.
bomma:
So you do not even know what a “labor shop” means. You are another of those ignorant bums who read a lot of media news about “IT”, and just want to be part of the wave, trying to display your half-baked knowledge to people who are actually able to spot you for the fraud that you are.
Vinay,
Given your generalization of the ‘IT industry’ work ethic – I doubt if you are a geek. Maybe what qualifies to be a ‘techie’ in Bangalore, nothing more.
And given how much time you have to rant and print homilies on this forum you must be high earning. Doubt if you are high spending – no proof just guessing :)
You are hardworking – at least while posting on online forums.
And definitely you have zero personal life and interests.
Looks like your stereotype applies to you!
bomma – There is a reason I asked you for you’re definition. If IT/ITES was a “labor shop” and I work in it, how can I have ample spare time, as you helpfully suggest?
Now, please let us have you’re understanding of “labor shop”.
Palahalli, the fact that you have ample spare time for long posts shows that you are at an IT labor shop. Which by your own admission you are.
Now please stop the dumb act and ask yourself whatever it is you want to argue about endlessly. bidu guru nin tharka maththe vaada saranigalu.
Vinay IT Raja, Yen IT kadithira neevu vosi bidisi helthira?
@karihaida
lemme explain myself. I m definitely not saying that we should let the govt. tell us how to run our household. But in companies/workplaces, they should have a say and by that i mean they should have the power/right to exercise some measurable amount of control over how a company(a pvt. one in particular) handles/regulates its affairs. Else, how is it supposed to control/ keep track of the 1.1x billion ppl i had mentioned in my comment. U did say that it was the main job of the govt. to do so. So considering they are not allowed to control our social lives/home running abilities, how do u expect them to keep track of who is cheating/not cheating; who is stealing/not stealing; who is/i s not manipulating the rules and regulations? My point in sayin that pvt. companies should be regulated by the govt. to some extent, is that if as u say, they are supposed to keep track of all the citizens, then they should be give access into the citizen’s life in some form or at some point. Else there is really no way to track what the country’s citizens are upto.
About the cops/policing, armed forces or a lot of govt. civil service sectors, yes, they are supposed to be the govt.s way of ensuring that the laws are followed and that order is maintained. But the ppl employed in these forces come from among us. So why expect them to have other expectations out of life than we do?
Now consider this, the services are short staffed and have really bad salaries(on another note, the 6th pay commission has again demoralised our troops by squashing 3 out of their 4 requests/demands). Look around you, if well earning people are willing to pay out shells of money to cheat and bend rules in their favour, why do we expect the services people to be any higher on the moral ground. If for example, person X is willing to spend more money just to get his work done faster, why should i expect a person Y in the services with a really bad pay scale not to be willing to accept money to add to his income? cos we all know comfort/luxury/housing/good food etc. cost money, right?
Case in Point, u cannot blame the govt./govt. agencies from everything bad cos their constituents are from among us.
@Vinay
I m not commenting on basis of articles i have read online, but i am commenting on open source software after having used both proprietary microsoft/apple/et. al. software as well as open source Linux/open office by sun sytems/ opensuse by novell/Ubuntu et. al. .
Secondly im not using IE if u claim i am, do u want open source web browsers, im sure as an IT employee u already know them, far many more than i do i am sure! The most popular one is Mozilla i believe?
my definition of a labour shop:
u get ideas and designs and schemes and problems from somewhere and then employ ppl in large numbers to get working on this problem to solve it.
Analogous to getting a design from and architect and then hiring manual labour to build it.
Or to getting a design and having the equipment to manufacture a component, and then hiring ppl to operate these equipment/to get the production lines turning.
Analogous to the most common definitions of Labour.
And also, in bangalore, there are a lot more industries apart form just IT and these have been there since before IT; for eg, aerospace and mechanical have been in bangalore since way before NRN and his infy got famous.
If the other industries do not get tax waivers/concessions et al why should IT? The land development “industry” is huge on economic terms these days, isn’t it? I don’t see them asking for tax rebates/striking against govt. regulations.
I have nothing against the IT industry, mind you! I am aware and am glad of the fact that it provides significant amounts of employment. But if IT folks start acting high and mighty and as if they are entitled to some sort of spl. treatment, then i say SCREW THEM AND DUMP THEM!
p.s. I hate to sound like a child in my comments, but that seems to be the only level of communication that ppl like u understand.
Prajwal:
If tht is your definition of “labor shop”, I have not worked in a “labor shop” till today. The ideas,schemes and designes are ours, the people working to implement the idea are right here, and the product(s) are sold by us, worldwide. My point is only this: you people cannot claim that the IT industry is one giant “labor shop”, coz’ most of you just don’t know what various IT companies are there in Bangalore, what work the different ones do, and what that work actually means in real terms. You guys are just repeating cliches that you hear around you.
Now tell me, do you use Linux for your daily tasks? Given a Redhat Linux CD, will you be able to use it for your daily needs, and configure it? Will you be able to create/procure device drivers for unsupported hardware and plug it in?
Prajwal >> “I hate to sound like a child in my comments, but that seems to be the only level of communication that ppl like u understand.”
I have a feeling that you cannot help sounding like a child, I have consistently observed this several times, and mentioned it to you too.
Looks like the scumbag bomma is not willing to accept that he does not know shit about “IT”, and is simply commenting for the sake of it. He has “no proof” for my “high spending” but he has “proof” enough to comment about my personal lifestyle and interests. I am beginning to feel that this rogue has been jilted by an “IT girl” while trying to bring some spice into his otherwise pathetic existence. This explains his pathological IT-hatred. Oh, of course, I don’t have “proof”, but I KNOW, I just KNOW that this is the truth about ‘bomma the bum’ and his personal life and interests.
@Prajwal,
think how a company (say Infosys, RIL) keeps track of employees’ work and whether it just hopes that the employees do the right job or whether it has checks and balances and counter balances to get the job done.
The gov’t is also an enterprise, inspite of whatever way they try to spin it and hence it must be run like one. How much ever you like, there is no benevolent gov’t, because that is human nature. Rama rajya is a fantasy.
“Case in Point, u cannot blame the govt./govt. agencies from everything bad cos their constituents are from among us.”
This is the very reason that the gov’t should be cut down in size and hence made to be more manageable. Your call for gov’t intrusion into private enterprise is dangerous because of this very reason.
If you can try to read about Austrian economic theory at mises.org
Vinay,
You are really funny :)
Stick to whatever labor management or ‘enterprise’ work you do. If you stop posting looong posts about nothing and start doing some real work maybe there is some hope for you. And probably you wont go the way of your heroes – Satyam the fraud IT company.
Nellakbidhru meese mannaaglillanthe…
bomma…you’re funny too. You’re humor would sound better if you stuck around and argued you’re point instead of running away like a coward..what say you?
Folks like Prajwal and Simple are real Men. Be like them…but you gotta grow what they have to do that.
Vinay, i’m with you on this discussion.
bomma:
You are not funny at all, you are a sad imbecile :(
Stick to whatever lowlife work you do. If you stop using Information Technology and Computers, AND work on building your mental capabilities and gather the ability to speak without making a fool of yourself, maybe there’s hope for you. And probably you won’t go the way of your heroes – Deve Gowda and clan (forgotten, out and abused right and left on a daily basis). (Hey – if you can assume that Satyam is my ‘hero’, I can assume that Deve Gowda’s portrait hangs on your bedroom wall. Anyway it is very likely that you are Deve Gowda material).
@karihaida
as u said, govt. intrusion into private enterprise is dangerous. And that we need to cut down on the government size.
This is your way of saying we will do whatever we want and also control the government. But i thought the purpose of the government was to regulate what we do in such a way that other people with whom we interact/deal are not cheated/harmed.
this raises 2 questions in my opinion :
1. What would be the point of cutting down the size of a regulatory body such as the government when it is already understaffed and underemployed?
2. if the govt. intervention/participation in private enterprises is totally completely cut off, then who will regulate the private enterprises?
As u said, there is no ramarajya. Yes, AS u said there is no benevolent government, but there is nothing like an immaculate private enterprise either.
All i am saying is just as citizens are allowed to regulate/keep a control on what the govt.. is upto, the govt. shud also be used to ensure that the private companies are not indulging in illegal/harmful practices that might harm other citizens of a country.
The country/free market that we are talking about does not consist of only entrepreneurs/sellers/industrialists. It also consists of consumers whose interests also need to be looked after in economics.Someone needs to ensure that the consumer is not the loser in this frenzy of private companies trying to gain advantage of the free market. you agree/disagree?
@Vinay
Provided i havent worked with Redhat Linux before, i might not be able to get it working right away, but i will get it up and working in about 2-3 days.
About unsupported hardware/devices, i m not able to create them, but procure them i almost always can. i will be able to create them too at some point of time, but not right now. My knowledge is not that advanced. I never claimed I can create any device driver. But there are ppl who are non IT employed and non Computer Science/Electronic engineers who can.I know quite a few of them.I also know quite a many info.science/comp.science/electronics/electrical engineers who cannnot do what u asked if i could do.
I do use Linux for my daily tasks.
I have a question for u:
Considering now that u know my definition of the “labor shops”, i would like to know ur definition of the IT industry/IT companies. I mean, what according to u consists IT? and assuming that u are aware of the number of ppl involved in the “IT industry”, what percentage of the employees generate new ideas/concepts/algorithms/hardware designs as against the percentage of ppl who just what others in the industry tell them to do?
@prajwal,
when I mean cut down gov’t it doesn’t mean cutting down the size of the regulatory body. In my earlier post I have mentioned that regulation, i.e enforcement of the laws, is the most important job of the gov’t. So if the strength of the regulatory body (like police) is not enough they should be increased and they must be well compensated. By regulation of private enterprise, I mean making sure they play by the rules, nothing more, nothing less.
What the gov’t is currrently doing in Satyam’s case, appointing people to the board will not work simplt because the new board has no liability. The free market should be allowed to work. The market cap will come down, a new buyer will step in (sort of like a vulture eating a dead body) and clean up the mess. He will do it the right way because he has liability.
Greed is human nature, wether you like it or not. If I have no liability, I dont need to do my job. If I’m not out if I fail, then why should I bother?
The free market system will not let this happen, it ensures a natural equilibrium. All I’m asking that the gov’t should ensure that the free market functions “freely”.
Our gov’t is inefficient because there is no liability, no ownership. That is the fundamental change we require. A free market system with reasonable social obligations is what is required.
We are a democratic republic. The emphasis should be more on republic than democratic.
Prajwal:
It is time to put forward, in a concise fashion, what my points actually are. This thread questions the IT industry’s claim that they have achieved what they have ‘in spite of the Government’. Several follow-up comments here, and several comments in other articles, are broad general statements about the IT industry being “chalu”, “spoiling Bangalore culture”, etc.
Regarding the first point: If one is honest, it must be accepted that the Government has helped the IT industry grow. I accept this fact. Land concessions, tax holidays, etc. have been provided by the Govt. I would not say that everything is ‘in spite of the Government’. But then, barring a few statements by a few people in the industry, not many in the IT industry are ‘claiming’ this, are they? Again, I accept that there is an ‘image’ held by many, that the IT guys have done it in spite of the Government. The media is respnsible to a great extent for this image. In addition to that, the Government is perceived to be incompetent, inefficient, corruption-ridden, etc. This view is held by everyone in the country, and rightly so. Very few people will think on the lines that the Govt. can actually play any kind of constructive role, ever. Another point to ponder over is, given similar sops, will any given industry be able to reach the level that IT has reached? Not necessarily. Even if the Govt. has given an initial push, the IT industry has actually converted it into tangible results and have grown phenomenally, and that credit goes to them entirely.
Now, coming to the more important point of people’s grouse against the IT industry, in that they still want tax breaks and subsidized land, even after they have grown so much. Again, I am all for stopping these sops for the major players (Infy, etc.). But I still feel that new startups should have these sops. Having said that, I don’t see what is wrong with the industry asking for it? It is their job to make more money (returns), and the sole purpose of their existence is to increase profits. If they lobby for it, the Govt. needs to take a decision and stop the handouts for large players. At least they are not gobbling money meant for tsunami victims, or getting people beaten up for refusing to sell them land!
People see only the “software guys” walking aroung with tags and driving private cars. They do not see the millions (yes, MILLIONS) who have been lifted out of poverty. The immense and unprecedented contribution of the IT industry in poverty elimination needs to be recognized. I will not talk about the ‘culture loss’, ‘traffic problems’, ‘pollution’, and the million other grouses here. It will take pages to write all that stuff, and there is not much point, because there are fools who will not see beyond their viewpoint, even when presented with facts.
AND finally, I do not have percentage numbers to give you, sorry. But I guess a very low percentage of people would actually conceptualize new designs or concepts as opposed to the number of people who implement those concepts. Also, we are talking about ‘non-service’ companies here, not the INFY-WIPRO types. And, we are talking about companies which have offices in Bangalore, irrespective of origin. Well, but then that is how it is supposed to be, isn’t it? Do you think that a software company in the US has 95% of the employees coming up with brilliant schemes, with 5% doing the implementation? There certainly are Indians, Bangaloreans, who work in companies like Oracle, Sun Microsystems, etc. who build great products with a complete Bangalore-based team.
Vinay and Palahalli the churumuri gasbags unite. This is hilarious! And they are going to prove their ‘manliness’ on the internet lol.
Bomma the bum, with a pathological hate of “IT” (basic reason explained 9 posts above) takes an oath to take on the IT industry and all associated employees. BUT, due to singular lack of manliness, keeps his confrontations limited to the internet. LOL. LOL. This is hilarious. Bomma, the churumuri-bum-with-ONLY-a-bum, unites with the forces of progeny of soil, in IT-bashing.
*sigh*…yeah bomma…that’s because you cannot..
Looks like vinay and palahalli are interpreting ‘internet manliness’ with ‘internet man-love’ for each other.
Another symptom of IT labor shop mentality? ;)
Or two avowed enemies becoming friends to take on the internet world?
To be seen…
Guru IT kingu Vinay,
IT labor shop discussionalli DG madhyadhall yel bandhbitta? He has collected his kickbacks for not making more noises on about IT land grabs, that is his method. Just like politicians had their peace with Satyam Raju. And you have made peace with your IT labor job (what job is it anyway – spokesperson for outsourcing losers?)
And your yegerlaading on the forum is entertaining – keep it up :)
Its unfortunate to see these comments on ‘IT bashing’. For an outsider IT is just Infy,Wipro. But there are so many other companies which are producing great work out of India. Technology has no doubt played an important role in our lives, which no one can ignore. It amounts to double standards when people like bomma use internet as a medium but dont acknowledge the people working behind to get a faster and better internet .
Its just a vicious cycle. 20-30 years it was a fad to join civil services or become a civil engineer, join government services. Presently IT provides better monetary benefits, so its obvious people will flock to that. If tomorrow nanotechnology becomes hep, then people will hop for that. Its all money driven. If civil engineering was as lucrative as IT, do you think the lifestyle of people wouldn’t have changed? Of course it would have.Of course they would all be flocking to multiplexes. Just look at the kind of employment opportunities that have come by in terms of cab drivers, facilities management etc due to IT.
Sub-standard humor now, bomma. Earlier, you were actually funny.
kharaharapriya has articulated it well.
Guru bomma alias bum:
Nodi guru, swalpa nodi. Anyone can see through your double standards. You pathetic loser, why do you want to know what job I do? It really won’t make sense to you. You are one of those rare specimens who have an itch-in-the-backside just because you’re not part of “IT”, and cover up your severe complex with talk of ‘culture being spoiled’, ‘traffic’, ‘pollution’, etc.
I think I can help you out with that, though. The toilets in my Offshore Development Center could do with an additional cleaner.
Vinay,
Yadh guru nim centru? How did the Satyam labor ‘poaching’ go? What is it that you do anyway besides dealing with labor and manhours. Or are you in charge of the toilets. Swalpa enlightment kodi guru. Then maybe we can put your big words in some perspective. And understand how you have so much time to post BS on forums.
karahapriya, I am talking about Infy, Wipro, TCS, satyam, their smaller clones and Andhra-based consultancies who ferry people to the US. And some greedy MNCs who follow the pure labor arbitrage model. The ones who who get permanent tax holidays, government subsidized land and barter in cheap labor for second rate work. Not talking about companies doing real engineering/development work like making a faster internet possible etc. Definitely not talking about google, microsoft research etc. and smaller Indian companies doing solid work.
Bomma the bum:
First tell me how much you expect to keep the toilets clean. I will also see to it that you get a ‘tag’ which you can show off to your friends. First let us know how good you are at cleaning HS (as opposed to BS). Then we’ll talk.
“..Not talking about companies doing real engineering/development work like making a faster internet possible etc. Definitely not talking about google, microsoft research etc. and smaller Indian companies doing solid work.”
– A ha…Bomma qualifies his abuse now :) So much like my dear friend Simple, no? So, finally bomma takes my advise and grows the needful.
Vinay, I think our pal here is seeking an escape hatch. Do we give it to him?
You can give him the escape hatch, and I will give him a job in the “IT sector” as a toilet cleaner..
Guruve Vinay,
Yaake guru toilet toilet antha badkondthiya? People at your office dont have basic toilet training? When you write so much theory about IT outsourcing and the labor practices, why are you so shy to let everyone know what it is that you do exactly besides worrying about toilets 24/7? Maybe you and Palahalli need to take your love into your in-charge toilet?
Guru Palahalli,
Yen guru adhu escape hatchu, growingu? Yaak neenu yerad-yeradu beluskond bittidhiya? Internetalli yella saadhya allva :) Shandanu gandasuaagaballa. Again nice to see you two showing some more gayness :) BTW say whatever it is you want to close the hatch wont you? Or do you not have the balls yourself?
Guruve bomma:
Yaakri, nanna complete resume bekaa nimmage? If you think I’m going to post my details on an open anonymous forum, think again. Only a bum like you would expect someone to actually do so. Suffice it to say that I am not part of your “cost arbitrage” “labor shop”. I do much better quality work than that.
Coming to toilet training, we recruit freshers and train them on consulting practice, in addition to technical training. Toilet training is something that had totally escaped my mind. Why don’t you do one thing – post your contact details here, and I shall organize a confidential toilet training session for those who may be interested in learning from you. You can probably give people live demonstration on how to wash, wipe, etc. A few cameras will be useful, and youtube is always there for people worldwode to benifit from your trainings. Kengeri Mori is a good place to organize such a training.
Waiting for your contact details.
“Most businesses run in spite of management not because of it.” (B. Meana 1986). Government is just a bad management system. What do you expect?