Editorial in Deccan Herald:
“If organisations like the Sri Rama Sene are keen to uphold Indian cultural values, they would do well to draw a lesson or two from the country’s long tradition of cultural tolerance. If they are keen to improve the lot of women in this country, there are any number of issues they could address. They could start with fighting female foeticide, for instance or the practice of dowry. If they find ‘pub culture’ a corrupting influence, they should set an example for youngsters by not frequenting bars themselves. Engaging in rowdyism is not the way to uphold Indian culture.”
Read the full editorial: Moral policing
Photograph: courtesy Deccan Herald
Also read: CHURUMURI POLL: Girls drinking beer not Hindu?
churumuri 
The right punishment can only be meted out if Mangaloreans stop voting back BJP everytime. BJP has started taking DK for granted as in past 20 years Mangalore has given BJP a stronghold.
While it was a commendable thing to do, considering the top quality leadership BJP once had in Vajpayee, it no longer makes sense as BJP has descended into a party of rowdies and Corrupt Mining lobbies.
The way to teach BJP a lesson is by making sure they loose heavily in elections. Till they show they won’t tolerate rowdy elements such as Bajrang Dal, Ram Sena, VHP, Shiv Sena, MNS etc. Keep voting to some other party.
While our choice is limited to BJP and Congress in a realistic sense, I don’t think Congress causes as much harm to the Idea of India as much as BJP does, and in the long run, BJP should learn to be a moderate right, instead of taliban-lite.
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“If organisations like the Sri Rama Sene are keen to uphold Indian cultural values’
Are we so silly to think that outfits like these have any interest in “protecting our culture” and other BS ? Their objective is to make some money and news ..the “leader” of this outfit is probably a budding politician ..
(I’ll take that word “probably” out… He/She IS a budding politician..trying to get the high command’s attention)
My blood boils looking at that hooligan slapping that women.. He must be severely punished.
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harkol – Im surprised at you’re observation. The BJP is extremist ? You bring a smile to my otherwise drab day :)
I suggest you hang around a little more…you ain’t seen nothin’ yet.
Congress or no Congress, Hindus will become more and more assertive and violent. It’s so silly to think the BJP either plans or wants to tolerate these things. Helplessness is closer to the truth.
Sandesh – I wonder what the “men” in that pub and outside were doing?
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Whole new angle to this disgusting episode is now coming to light and to be honest BJP in the end may come out smelling like roses.
In short, what we saw in Mangalore was scripted and executed by a website for a well known Congress leader from this region.
There is intense competition for MP ticket from Mangalore in Congress and in recent meetings Janardhana Poojary’s supporters clearly had upper hand after shouting down other big “leader” (also ex-CM)
This big leader and his best buddy in a website based in Mangalore (who had earlier invited Moily to Dubai and honored him) hatched this plan.
And it worked perfectly. Attack was nicely videotaped and sent to Delhi, Moily started shouting from top of his lungs in far away Delhi that Karnataka/Mangalore is not safe and hey presto he is now in the good books of Madam for MP Ticket from Mangalore.
Anyone who knows those arrested are aware that these are two bit rowdy sheeters (paid goondas) and their only link with Hindutva is their orange undy perhaps!
This whole thing will unravel shortly..just wait and watch!
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I was following the comments on the previous post in Churumuri on this issue and was startled to find that there were people who felt that the actions of these hooligans were justified.
Also a gentleman by the name of Mr. Tatagat Mukherjee was going off in tangents to the issue citing conversion of Hindu women into muslims by the muslim men who lure them into relationships. Are we as a society so retarded to even have difference of opinion on such a gruesome crime and the audacity to justify these acts with completely unrelated issues.
I have not been able to catch some peaceful sleep after having a look at the gory videos. My heart bleeds in pain at the brutal assault on civilian freedom and the blood boils at the failure of the government to protect its citizens. I fumble when I write this and fear the consequences that supporting of such acts will have on the generations to come.
I want to take this opportunity to bring to the notice of Mr. Tatagath Mukherjee and his like a few opinions of mine, of course for which he is free to disagree but not to beat me up to accept his point of view!
For all the talk of culture which we have here, let’s first understand that the culture that is at the forefront of todays argument is grossly mistaken. In kannada there are 2 separate words called “Samskara – practices” and “Samskrithi – culture” which are vastly different in their meanings. Today the argument seems to be about the practices which have changed over a period of time like women liberation (though the recent act puts a serious doubt over its veracity), change in dressing styles, food habits etc. Thus what has really changed are our practices i.e. “Samskara”. “Samskrithi” is our rich tradition of argumentative philosophy, our reverence for nature, our reverence for our fellow human beings and to accept and live with differnce of opinion. And as practices change, though they have a superficial effect on the culture it truly does not erode the rich fabric of any culture. I am sure that Mr. Mukherjee will be glad to cite references from works to point out differences in opinion about this but I humbly request him to spend a few quiet moments with himself on the banks of Ganga and think of what I say. There has been changes in the pooja practices at home, the sandhyavandhana is no longer performed 3 times day but essence of a brahmin is still prevalent in my family with issues like importance of knowledge, respect for opinions and nature. This is my culture and I do not see any conflict of this with my practices. We had wrong practices in the past when we looked down at people from lower castes and we have corrected it today to a great extent. There was a problem with our practices(“Samskara”) and not our (“Culture”).
On a final note, there are no guardians for culture and even if it’s a self appointed responsibility, it’s ghastardly for somebody to dictate terms on others.
For the theists it’s the supreme power who is the judge of our actions and I have no say in somebody elses “karma”. If the dharma is to come to abysmally low levels, as the lord himself has proclaimed ” Abhyuthanam adharmasya thadhatmanam srijamyaham” or “Dharma samsthapanaarthaya sambhavaami yuge yuge”.
And for the atheists, its reason which reins supreme and no logical deduction will justify interference with others life.
Mr. Mukherjee, I have been reading your comments on this forum for a long time and have been in acceptance with you on a quite a few issues but to not raise a word against this ghastardly act does not suit your well read persona.
“Aano Bhadraaha Krathavo Yanthu Vishwathaha” – Rig Veda
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@Thomas,
I don’t think this is something cooked up by Congress. Whenever people point finger at these BJP, RSS, VHP.. they always come up with idea that it was cooked up by congress. (Remember in case of communal riots in Ullal.) Who are they fooling? Ramasena Vanarasena all are bunch of jobless idiots, who claim themselves to be safeguarding Indian Culture.. Our culture is better than these idiots.
I am sure your true name cannot be ‘Thomas’. Just to make people think you are not supporters of these idiots, you are posting with the Xian name!
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Actually one of the men in the pub did try to put up a fight. He was bashed up. Unfortunately it was just one man against 40.
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Can the Ram Sena explain why the women are not supposed to frequent pubs but, men can get away with going to pubs and boozing?
The Ram Sena is the self styled upholder of Hindu/Indian culture. Then how come they are molesting women? Is that what culture is all about?
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I wonder if the honourable members of the Ram Sena have the guts to thrash Esha Deol, the daughter of BJP MP Hema Malini.
Esha Deol prances around wearing the skimpiest clothes in her movies.
Palhalli
Why do you have this uncanny knack of going of tangent? This posting is about hooligans who thrash innocent women in the guise of ‘hinduism’.
This is not about the emergence of Hindu power. So please, save your breath.
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It’s shameful. How can these cowards attack women like this?
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Yes, there are a lot of pressing issues to fight for in this country. While women get attacked for going to pubs, corrupt police and politicians go scot free. Though the Lokayukta identifies corrupt government officers every month, the Ram Sena attack ladies for downing a few pegs:( . Indians will definitely benefit if the Ram Sena can fight for better civic amenities, good education at government schools, and lesser pollution…..
I wonder who the devil decided that they are “Sri Rama’s” Sena! I bet 90% of them will not know half of Ramayana….:)
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Its a plain political conspi. Veerappa moily, oscar fernandes are other rotten people if involved is no big surprise. Pramod mutalik has been kicked out of the parivaar long back.
Wont it be suicidal for BJP to do all these acts again and again only in Mangalore?? A city with sizable minorities and a city of well-educated dubai return “seculars”.
Go and check the credentials of bharatanaytam dancer come politician oscaranna, how his family and relatives harass people.
These are all hooligans, today they will be in raama sene tomorrow in Mullah sene. These are all unemployed porkis who just need some money. And some political party will fund it. We need to catch them. The media needs to, be it BJP or Caaangis or JDS they must be caught.
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Unanswered questions:
1. Why did the Attackers hired videographers? does anyone want to get caught on tape molesting?
2. Why no one has lodged any complaint?
3. Is it true that the pub is run by two doctors, who lure medical students to these acts?
4. Verappa Moliy must have some real high tech links or was he waiting for a green signal from Mangalore, before commenting from Delhi?
5. Why all of us are passing comments based on some video gfootage, shown 100 times a day…was it stage managed, with professional actors?
6. Why did media choose to sell the footage rather than prevent the whole un pleasant episode?
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I guess to resolve this issue the so called rama sena should work on closing all the pubs and bars in the area. If women going to pub is not per hindu culture…having a pub in a predominant hindu society also is not a hindu culture.
Can these idiots be quizzed on some basic hindu culture to see how well they understand hindusim.
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Why defend these hooligans?
They are troublemakers and will side with whichever party is in power. Just because they are now doing it in the name of ram sene, bajrang dal or rss; why the doubts that this incident even happened? It is similar to some pakis arguing that the mumbai incident was some figment of imagination.
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There is so much talk about women’s liberation and the right to live the way any individual wants, as long as it does not “hurt” another. Fine.
Even though I regard the above as standard Liberal tripe, let me indulge especially those folks who laugh at Tathagata’s suggestion.
Assuming you’ve all been to pubs and such;
Scenario 1 – A beautiful woman comes along with an escort. She is dressed very barely. Short black (diving) dress, let’s say.
* How would you guys react?
Scenario 2 – This beautiful girl then takes her escort by his hand and leads him onto the dance floor. To great music, she does a dance number that could send Malaika running back to school. Of course, her escort isn’t just standing there twiddling his thumbs.
* You guys are patrons of that pub/bar/what have you…how would you react?
Scenario 3 – Toward the end of the evening, when everybody is ready to leave and some are quite drunk…a silent gasp and a whistle is let out and it’s coming from a bunch of ladies standing by the exit door. Folks follow their gaze and that leads to the beautiful girl’s escort. For some reason, the fellow’s changed into some pretty tight pants with a propensity to indulge the bulge. And it’s colored different too. All of a sudden, you realize that the bunch of ladies who gasped, are part of you’re party.
* How would you react?
While you’re at a response (in case you guys decide to take this small test), I want you to think of why a woman or a man would want to wear something revealing.
I suggest we stay away from the Rama Sena or Khajuraho and such. Think of this very simple “every weekend” scenario.
For folks who think the West is lily white compared to India in terms of crimes against women, I will respond a little later to their assertions.
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People who sit and mind their own business in a pub are attacked, and worse, SUPPORTED by certain scum who rejoice that “Indian culture is being protected”
Poverty, filth, garbage, power shortage, drinking water shortage, pathetic roads, pollution, corruption, etc., matters less to these “culture protecting” assholes (educated commentors who favor the “Ravana Sena” are bigger specimens of assholism than the Sena themselves). What matters is that some people are sitting in a pub and, GASP, DRINKING. This merits bashing up girls and men alike, destroying property and tearing clothes. What a bunch of pathetic prematurely-ejaculating scoundrels!
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Harkol>>I don’t think Congress causes as much harm to the Idea of India as much as BJP does
Boss, its Congress that surrendered 33.33% of India in the name of Pakistan (and Bangladesh).
Its Congress that created mess in Kashmir- special rights based on religion, now we saw worst religious cleansing when 500,000 pandits driven out.
What could be more damaging to ‘idea of India’ than these?
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@ Prashanth Bhat :
what you are saying is good in theory. reality is something different.
Did you come across a name “Rizwanur” in last few months? He was a person from Calcutta who had a love affair with a wealthy Marwari girl. Her parents objected to their marriage. Rizwanur was also pressurized- even Chief of Calcutta Police, many IPS officers got involved. Ultimately, the girl cameback to her parents house. Unable to cope with the siutuation, Rizwanur committed suicide (as per CBI). The case is under CBI, being dragged in High Court, Supreme Court….with a heavy dosage of politics mixed.
Media went overboard, lots of candles were burnt…..lots of lecture we heard from activists etc etc.
Approx at the same time, one person was chopped to death in a village in Murshidabad (some 100 miles from calcutta) by his inlaws , village Panchayat (of CPIM). His crime was, he was a hindu who married a muslim girl. Both came to know each other while doing menial job in Mumbai.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080801/jsp/frontpage/story_9631281.jsp
Where were media, Hr activists, politicians condemning even fraction of what we saw in Rizwanur case?
Its this double standard, based on religious affiliation of people involved have made us cynical.
This whole mangalore issue is blown out of proportion by a section of press known for its double standards. Politicians with vested interest have intervened.
The only way to comeout of the whole issue of moral policing is: apply rule of law, firmly, in all places of India, irrespective of whether they are your ally/opposition, whether they are minority, majority….
Will that ever happen in India? I doubt. It has to start from Shah Banu…Taslima….Da Vinci.
***
Vinay: No personal abuse please. Learn to respect others view point, If you see any factual error, distortion, then correct those. Abuse whoever has different view is not tolerance :)-
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Bhat>>Please learn to respect other freedom and of course this freedom ends where others nose begins.
The whole thing- hulla gulla on mangalore bar issue by a section of media, intellectuals, and psuedo political parties are FARCE. Open your eyes to happenings in your sourroundings- you will see that.
I did NOT support beating people. But when media, pliticians follow a different standard depending on a person’s communal affiliation- it does create backlash.
As I stated . Ask Rahul, Brinda Karat, N Ram, Pranay Roy to arrange a march with skimpy dressed girls (preferably with their close relates, daughters, sisters), drink in the bar, and dange with romeos.
THAT WILL BE POETIC JUSTICE :)- Live by example, as they say.
And we are seeing that today. And I can guarantee you, it will grow in the future.
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The immoral cops should be thrown in prison pronto.
So also that hoodlum-bhanja in Maharashtra who threatened an “agitation” (read: violence) and — with the help of Maharashtra’s incompetent police — got Karachi Sweet Mart in Mulund to change its very name.
Let’s not be fooled into believing these folks are “ours.” They are not Hindu; they are India’s Taliban.
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etvraviraja’s queries are valid.
The Veerappa Moily linkage had been told by our home minister the same day to the press.
On failing in all the seats in bye-election, Congress somehow (by hook or crook) wants to get some seats in forthcoming LS elections. May be Madam has set some target for our state CongI Leaders!.
On the other hand, I strongly condemn this attact. However, linking it to BJP very immediately by pseudos is foolishness.
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Palahalli
Let me take your “small test”. I promise honest reactions from my side. To make matters more interesting let me say I am with my friends…all guys, OK ?
“Scenario 1 – A beautiful woman comes along with an escort. She is dressed very barely. Short black (diving) dress, let’s say. ”
I would turn my head. Whistle under my breath and may be pass a few remarks with my friends. And then carry on drinking.
“Scenario 2 – This beautiful girl then takes her escort by his hand and leads him onto the dance floor. To great music, she does a dance number that could send Malaika running back to school. Of course, her escort isn’t just standing there twiddling his thumbs.
* You guys are patrons of that pub/bar/what have you…how would you react?”
Well, a dance floor is meant for dancing. I would look at her, enjoy dance, pass more remarks and continue drinking. What the girl and her escort do is their life. I could not (and should not) bother with it.. We have our own stuff to discuss.
“Toward the end of the evening, when everybody is ready to leave and some are quite drunk…a silent gasp and a whistle is let out and it’s coming from a bunch of ladies standing by the exit door. Folks follow their gaze and that leads to the beautiful girl’s escort. For some reason, the fellow’s changed into some pretty tight pants with a propensity to indulge the bulge. And it’s colored different too. All of a sudden, you realize that the bunch of ladies who gasped, are part of you’re party.”
No ladies in my party. But the first thing I would do is to alert the manager and the bouncers. Also, call up the cops if that escort’s behaviour is on the aggressive. With my friends, I would rush and try to see what the matter is. Hopefully the bouncers and cops should be able to diffuse the situation.
Actually, I am not sure about your intention here. Look, it is relatively easy to rein in one person who is up to any mischief than to fight 40 odd guys intent upon picking up a quarrel. And precisely this is what happened in the pub. There were 40 odd ruffians trying to molest girls.
My response to scenarios (1) and (2) will differ slightly if there are ladies in my party…I can’t pass nasty remarks :).
Palahalli, I don’t think we should in any way support these scum of people.
Also, the argument that men can’t control their libido if they see a women in skimpy clothes doesn’t hold ANY water. It all depends on how you have been brought up…taught to respect privacy and dignity of others. Too bad, our education both at home and at school doesn’t emphasize these things.
Let me just ask you this… (If you are you living abroad)
Scenario : You are strolling in a park and come across a couple kissing. What is your reaction ?
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Vinay
Let’s have no illusions. These f***rs don’t care a hoot about real problems of our country. These are just scumbags feeding on hard working people of the society.
ganesha habbada timenalli bartaralla.. hudugru, Ganeshana kundristivi anta. Aa reeti jana ivru. Vyatyasa ishte. Former have integrity and the latter have absolutely none!
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Below is another opionion. It seems to me that there is a grass-root, underclass revulsion going on against Jihadi agenda. Media is trying to blame RSS and BJP. But it is clear this is not a RSS or BJP driven activity.
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Jihadi Romeo’s thrashed in Mangalore
Once again the media published partial truth in Mangalore incident, in which Hindu activists under Sri Ram Sena gave a stern warning to jihadi Romeos in Mangalore. Mangalore is becoming the hot bed of Jihadi Romeos who target Hindu and Christian girls, woo them and have love affair with them.. The girls mostly from other states who come to Mangalore for study are easy prey for these jihadi’s.
The girls, in most cases bought up in a secular environment, are too ignorant and naïve to understand the true nature of Islam and the motives of these Jihadi Romeo’s. After convincing them about the need of conversion, these girls are handed over to Mullahs in the Kozhikode conversion centre. From there they are completely brainwashed and in most cases these girls are recruited for terrorist activities or projected as a showpiece in Islamic seminars. These girls are used also in later stage to convince other girls to follow the path of Islam. By the time they realize their folly it will be too late.
A girl from Moovattupuzha in Kerala was studying Nursing in Mangalore when she fell into this trap. More than 1000 teenage boys and girls were converted in Kozhikode and Ponnani Islamic conversion centres. When the girl was in this conversion entre, her Family members tried to rescue her but to the jihadi authorities haven’t allowed them to talk to her. And by time Police were involved the girl was moved to some other safe hide out. Now no one knows where she is and intelligence agencies suspect that she might be recruited for some terrorist mission.
There is another strategy. Hindu and Christian girls are lured into marriage by Muslim guys with a promise that they need not convert. But after the marriage (sometimes after a child is born) the guy is offered a job at Mecca in Saudi Arabia. Then the girl is told that if she wishes to live with her husband she has to convert as Islamic law in Saudi doesn’t permit non-Muslims to either enter or live in Mecca area. She then reluctantly converts and goes to live with her husband at Mecca.
Dear Parents, watch out for jihadi Romeos
Many parents who lost their daughters and sons in this trap prefers to stay silent and more over they never gets any sort of help from the society in such matters. Most of the parents don’t have any other option since she may be the only child from that family.
———————————–
I am sure they are rejecting all Hindu opinions and dishing out only missionary propaganda.
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Copying this from rediff article (http://www.rediff.com/news/2009/jan/27-sri-ram-sena-chief-these-girls-are-like-my-sisters.htm)
“Earlier, you said that these girls are like your sisters. You being the chief of the Sena could have stopped your men from misbehaving with these girls. Why did you keep quiet?
I was not in Mangalore when the incident took place. By the time I returned, the incident had already taken place. If I was around, I would not have approved of the misbehaviour with women.”
Classic reply!!!
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I was reading up on another post about actress Shreya and the controversy her dress kicked up.
There was the usual hulla about the Makkal Katchi folks making their fuss about culture being ruined.
Then there was Sir Atmapudhi quite litrally on heat :) I loved his daring posts though.
There were some other supporters of Shreya’s right to wear anything she liked in public…who mildly…tactfully..mentioned to Sir Atmapudhi, that he control himself/his online orgasms, rather. One of his “minders” I remember, was Doddi Buddi.
This was an old post and I made a comment there today, asking why he was being asked to control his writing and/or take it to another more “appropriate” forum.
Obviously, in such a “rush hour”, my post got drowned out of sight :( But my question remains. Why indeed should a Sir Atmapudhi not relieve himself in this/such a forum?
Btw, I admire Sir Atmapudhi’s writing. It’s generally of a high quality. Even those raunchy posts of his were a delight…for me.
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The incident :
Reaction of the CM :
No moral turpitude :)
Some hooligans no way related to Yeddi create a riot and Churmuri is ready to pull his Cheddi or atleast his chair …
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http://www.indianexpress.com/news/arrested-muthalik-bats-for-bjp-he-shared-stage-with-political-bigwigs-day-after-attack/416002/0
Delhi Cong CM Sheila Dixit attending a function A DAY AFTER MANGALORE incident with Mutalik :)-
Imagine what would have happened of a BJP CM were to do this. Why NDTV, IBN are mum?
Its this reason, time and again, has exposed the psuedo media.
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@ Tatagat Mukherjee
Well, I am in agreement with your views about partisan politics and the stands taken by some secularists on the issue. I am also completely aware of the way the oppositio is trying to gain political mileage out of this incident. But I have something more to say beyond the usual things that happen in the country Mr. Mukherjee.
I haven’t been able to take this issue out of my mind ever since I happened to view those gory video clips. Not one responsible politician (tha’s an oxymoron) or statesman (i don’t know if this word applies) has come forward to appologize for the abject failure in protecting the civilian rights. Not one of them has come forward to say that justice will be provided to these young hapless women, whose skirts and pants were pulled at. Mr. Mukherjee, I hope you understand that every human life is very precious and if a woman is traumatized for life by such incidents, would you want to let those men walk scot free just because some secularist goon happened to behave indifferently in the rizwanur case. There is a saying in kannada which goes by “Yethhige jora bandhre yemmege bare haakidhru”, which translates to treatment being meted out to the one who is not inflicted by the disease.
I have as much anger and disagreement against the islamic principles as much as you do. I am completely against the nonsensical prophecies propounded by the islamic cult but at the same time, for the love of my life I cannot condone the dastardly act and will never be able to view it through any other looking glass. For me, it’s a case of assault against harmless individuals purely done by the lack of reason, judgement and by someone who holds no respect to the law of the land.
If educated people like us back the immoral and illegal activities of such goons, do you think there will be any order. Mr. Mukherjee, the issue of relegious intolerance is not a new one and war has never been able to provide a final solution to this impending problem. I would want to discuss with you issues of world order and civilizational clashes but this is not the post to do it. It would be really appreciable and humane for someone as well read as you are to come forward and say that such acts of heinousness against women cannot be justified in any way and demand that exemplary punishment be meted out to all who have perpetrated and committed this shameless act.
As for some food for thought, I quote or misquote Voltaire; “Rousseau, I do not believe a word of what you say, but I shall give my life for your right to say so.”
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I sometimes wonder, and with deep regret and pain if any of my countrymen here have felt anything viewing those clips. I was shaken and afraid at the atrocities. I couldn’t think of anything other than about the trauma that these women would have and have to go through.
And amidst all these, I see men and women commenting on the skimpy wear or values of these young women. How skimpy are our minds? Aren’t we who take this opportunity to comment on morals of young men and women anke in out thoughts? Doesn’t it shame anyone to be not able to feel pity or sorrow at these incidents? Is it pleasurable for people to see 40 people attempt to molest women? Doesn’t it disturb your senses deeply when you see 20 hooligans round up a girl and slap her or as the lady later said have their skirts and pants pulled at and be groped?
When I look at the comments on the forum and read the comments made by people in justification of this violence, I am not ashamed but I am afraid. Is this going to be the reaction of these men if someone were to beat me up? Is this the way you were traeted by your parents if you wronged (And no, I do not think there is anything wrong in what the young women did, it’s after all personal choice)? Have we grown so insensitive to the pains of others, to the atrocities meted out on our fellow human beings and nature? Is this the land of holy saints who walked naked bearing the elements of nature (hata yoga) in search of a deeper consciousness? Is this the land of great intellect which taught the world to look into our own inner self when the whole of west went to conquer external boundaries? Are we being washed away by the glory of our own past? Are we a civilization in an advanced state of decay?
IS THERE HOPE BEYOND THIS?
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I sometimes wonder, and with deep regret and pain if any of my countrymen here have felt anything viewing those clips. I was shaken and afraid at the atrocities. I couldn’t think of anything other than about the trauma that these women would have and have to go through.
And amidst all these, I see men and women commenting on the skimpy wear or values of these young women. How skimpy are our minds? Aren’t we who take this opportunity to comment on morals of young men and women naked in out thoughts? Doesn’t it shame anyone to be not able to feel pity or sorrow at these incidents? Is it pleasurable for people to see 40 people attempt to molest women? Doesn’t it disturb your senses deeply when you see 20 hooligans round up a girl and slap her or as the lady later said have their skirts and pants pulled at and be groped?
When I look at the comments on the forum and read the comments made by people in justification of this violence, I am not ashamed but I am afraid. Is this going to be the reaction of these men if someone were to beat me up? Is this the way you were traeted by your parents if you wronged (And no, I do not think there is anything wrong in what the young women did, it’s after all personal choice)? Have we grown so insensitive to the pains of others, to the atrocities meted out on our fellow human beings and nature? Is this the land of holy saints who walked naked bearing the elements of nature (hata yoga) in search of a deeper consciousness? Is this the land of great intellect which taught the world to look into our own inner self when the whole of west went to conquer external boundaries? Are we being washed away by the glory of our own past? Are we a civilization in an advanced state of decay?
IS THERE HOPE BEYOND THIS?
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@ Palahalli:
Are these figments of your imagination of your deep rooted perversion which has been imagined time and again in your sleep. It is very difficult to raise yourself from the filth that you post on forums in the garb of rationalizing your views, isn’t it? Is perversion such a difficult problem to overcome?
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Keeping all things aside, what bothers me is how easy it is for very few people to throw whole govt machinery hay wire.
If some two bit thugs at a small city like Mangalore can gain so much attention at National Level, it won’t be long before we see copy cat attacks all around the country for 15 minutes of fame.
Police have already arrested the culprits so I am more puzzled why this news story is keeping English media so engrossed.
Looking at all this one has to wonder if some media agency itself was hired to do this whole “project”. Tip of the hat to them though – they have succeeded in their mission (what with demand of resignation of CM, HM and hordes of fly by night “commissions” descending to Mangalore)
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Thomas Talapady may be right here! The videos look very slick. That said, I wouldn’t put it past the ‘Sena’ types doing this kind of local Taliban stuff.
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I totally agree with etvraviraja, When we see thee footages we can make out that the footage was shhot by person who is alert on the incidenor who is awaiting for the incidsent to happen So It automatically comes to our mind that alli camera doru enu madtha iddaru ? these goons who were making all these hulla gullas didn’t see these cameras don’t they realise that these things will become a major evidence of their act in future?
Any way I STRONGLY condemn the act whether it is intentional or planned
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That’s the problem with some women. They wear these cleavage showing dresses. You want to wear these tight tight tight jeans which literally stick to their rear ends. You wear such low cut jeans that they almost fall off their bodies. They wear low-cut blouses, skimpy tops and backless cholis and walk around in broad daylight.
They wear these insanely provactive dresses (I’ve seen so many older women wearing backless cholis with their saris), college students who wear these super-skimpy tops and super-low cut jeans displaying acres of skin. I’m just as liberal as the next guy and am all for women’s rights but if you’re going to walk around in a dress that might be suitable for NY or LA in Bangalore or Mumbai you’re asking for trouble. Still less in Mangalore or Mysore-let alone in Jalgaon or Punttenhalli or Kadapa.
India is a conservative society with conservative views. It has people who still stick to those views unlike some commentators here who have forgotten their ideals and reach for the seductive “freedom” of the west.
Make no mistake I am as open-minded as any body else and am all for women’s liberation and freedom. But there are norms that you have to follow in a society which believes in moral values and still sticks to its age-old traditions. We believe in Indian culture and its age-old norms; values and norms which are older than Christ and Columbus. These values are part of the warp and woof of our society and are part of our 5000 year old tradition.
Those who fail to understand this are the real anti-nationals. Parents need to tell their girl children their duties, need to instill them the difference between right and wrong-not give them the licence to do whatever they feel like and land up caught by the police in a rave party. Your children need to have the courage to stand up for what is right and parents need to teach them that.
Those girls who want to rub against a man with his hands in her underpants at a time when decent people are in bed, those girls who want to wear the bare minimum and show off their well-toned gymmed bodies to the whole world at unearthly hours, please understand that when you want the whole world to see what you’ve got there are pervets and maniacs who will try to sample it. Not for a moment am I trying to justify this shocking incident but women need to appreciate the country they are living and its codes and customs. Abide by those customs, dress modestly and in accordance with our 5000 year old culture and there won’t be any need for such Senas. Sorry but that’s how India is. We’re not the US/UK/Brazil/West Indies so you’d be better of realizing that what works there doesn’t here. We have values and we WILL NOT give them up. If you dislike those values you are free to criticize them but there are many who treasure them.
I CONDEMN MANGALORE INCIDENT but in Rome do as Romans do.
Lastly, please understand that our right to a safe,secure, peaceful environment is more important than your right to rub against a man in skimpy tops at 1.00 am in the morning on a pub in Brigade road.
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Vinay, I’m very surprised at you’re diatribe –
“Poverty, filth, garbage, power shortage, drinking water shortage, pathetic roads, pollution, corruption, etc., matters less to these “culture protecting” assholes.”
Who told you these were not concerns? Of course, it doesn’t look like they are on Rama Sena’s agenda, but how are you so sure that supporters of Rama Sena also do not agitate against these civic blemishes??
How are you so sure that all those folks who send pictures of rotten roads and stinking drains to newspapers are not of one mind with Rama Sena?
In fact, I will wager that it’s MOSTLY the average middle class conservative folks who in fact are bothered about the condition of cities anywhere. And, I’ll wager that MOST of them would be supporters of Rama Sena’s underlining agenda.
Can you prove me wrong?
Let us all remember that one might stop a Rama Sena through government diktat (law & order), but one must also try to bolster their argument against future “Rama Senas”. I notice an excessive dependence on the “diktat”. That means, there is less or no argument. The argument of “individual freedom/individualism” remains…and that is something I have tried to address in my earlier posts.
And please don’t hitch on to the “Talibanization” bandwagon. You might just motivate someone to prove you right. Let’s keep things in proportion to what they actually are.
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Palahalli
You sit in your glass house and grandly state that you will wager that MOST of the middle class would be supporters of Ram Sena’s underlining agenda.
And what is their agenda?
To impose their idea of culture on others?
To thrash hapless young women?
To say dancing is anti Hindu? (then why they keep quiet when BJP MP hema malini gyrates to bollywood music?)
To term nanga as anti Hindu? Nanga is never anti Hindu. Hinduism is replete with nakidity right from Akka Mahadevi to Bethale Seve to Naga Sadhus to Gomateshwara.
Palahalli, Hindusim never ‘imposes’ anythign on anybody. So don’t impose your constipated views in this largely enlightened forum.
Let’s keep things in proportion, you say? which means let these perverts of Ram Sena get away lightly so that they can continue to treat women as doormats?
Would you take things lightly if your sister was thrashed and humilated in public? answer me. and don’t run away from the battlefield like a coward.
You say, how do we know for sure that Ram sena has not sent letters to publications about civic issues.
yea, we don’t know.
What we do know is their double standards. Because we know for sure:
Ram Sena keeps quiet about BJP MP hema malini’s daughter prancing around wearing the skimpiest of clothes.
Ram sena keeps quiet about BJP MP Hema malini hugging and romancing her heroes in movies. Hugging men other than your husband is Hindu?
Ram Sena keeps quiet about Hindu female infanticide in the country. The never bash up women who go for female infanticide.
Ram Sena has never bashed up a single Hindu Mother in law for burning her daughter in law.
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Sandesh – I found you’re response to Scenario 3 interesting. You seem to have instinctively gone for “you’re” gun.
If you read the scenario, you will note that there has been no “provocation”, in the sense Liberals here want to define and defend it. The guy simply changed HIS clothes to suit HIS taste. The reaction to THAT came from ladies in “YOU’RE” party. Apparently, some were shocked and others loved it. (Note the whistling)
Deduction – This guy in tights cannot dream of the “freedom” you want girls to have. Moreover, you jump to protect ladies in you’re party who you think might be “seduced” by this guy. So, it appears that you still want you’re fun and will deny you’re ladies their share. I don’t blame you. You’re being a Man. But, please note, it does not fit you’re defense of “individual freedom” as you and the rest understand it.
Please let me know if my reading is wrong.
******
Shyodha – There certainly is a growing groundswell of Hindu anger.
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Prashanth Bhat – Bhatre, me thinks you’re a man of straw. Forget about wanting folks to “protect” you when in distress, I’m pretty clear you’d be the first to run-off when faced with a challenge to you’re woman or youself.
Furthermore, I find it amusing that you want to cover up you’re weakness through resort to sham psychology.
More, I find it ridiculous that you call “perversion” a set of scenarios you defend, otherwise, as “individual choice” and “freedom”.
Please don’t take the test. I know the answer.
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The protest could have been conducted sans violence. If some action was indeed necessary, it could have been directed at the Pubs, rather than the girls.
Most condemners have acted predicably. If the contrived outrage is on account of girls (especially young pretty ones, who melt the male hearts) being attacked, it is understandable. But, if the condemnation is for asserting the right to inculcate boozing habits amongst girls, that is questionable. No doubt, none can stop a person from drinking if one chooses to do so. But, like Pub culture, it need not become a socio-cultural movement. There is no need for intellectuals to take dip into this “beer hall putsch”. The stridency of the Liberal Brigade which wants to advocate the right to drink is alarming. Liberals and leftists are beginning to sound like facists who are their favourite target.
I think, there are some interest groups who defend pubs for inducing girls to inculcate drinking habits. One, the liquor barons and liquor vendors; two, fantasising aging liberals who hope to land a willing young thing in the pub; three, people who use pubs for other nefarious purposes, involving girls.
Does anyone spare a thought to the parents and guardians of these girls. Don’t they have the right to protect their daughters and wards?
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Refresh – You sound like my pal “Simple”.
In any case, let’s see where you stand on my previous post wrt “Scenarios”.
Be brave now..
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Simple a.k.a Refresh,
Your are causing great insult to the great Sadhvi Akka Mahadevi, by comparing her to these “liberals” who booze and walk around in skimpily clad dress. Please dont do that. Please read the story of Akka. She is one of our greatest saints. Do you even know why she went naked?? Do you even know she was also subjected to molestation? Do you even know many eyes were prying her nude body? Do you know what Akka said about such people?
About the sadhus going nude it denotes renunciation. Please dont confuse that to freedom and license to nudity.
Its become a fashion for these liberals like Renuka chaudary, girija vyas to say india is land of Kama-sutra nudity, blah blah.
Will these people walk nude freely on streets?
Will these people let their daughters roam nude?
Will these people let their husbands have free sex ?
Will they give consent for group sex?
Will they accept their children go nude in a movie if the script demands??
Instead of wasting time on discussing cant we take steps to uplift lakhs of muslim women under the burkha??
Cant we do something on rural women empowerment?
Most women in rural areas are exploited.
Why do we always give importance to the “minorities” in India and never respect the majority??
P.S: When i say minorities I mean its liberals here.
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kharaharapriya,
“Do you even know why she went naked?? Do you even know she was also subjected to molestation? Do you even know many eyes were prying her nude body? Do you know what Akka said about such people?”
What do you know? Did you do make some archaeological finds on akka mahadevi to talk like an ustaad? Or did she come to you in a dream and tell you her life story? Are you from the 12th century? How do you know whatever you read of akka’s verses are hers and not someone else?
Why the holier than thou attitude you carry?
How would you like it if some thugs in the name of some Ram sene or vanara sene beat up your womenfolk for whatever reason?
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@ Prashant Bhat: Sir, everybody is naked in this hamam. Congress, CPIM, BJP, not to mention many socio-religious groups – all do ‘moral policing’. I don’t track Lalu, Mayavati…..so wouldn’t know. But they will be worse, no better on this.
Remember Usha Uthup, one of our finest singer? In mid 1980s, a cultural night was arranged in Calcutta by an organization associated with a top CPIM minister. Chief Minister Jyoti Basu was chief guest.
CPIM came out condemning usha uthup’s presence as “apa-Sanskriti” (vulgur etc)- there was much halla gulla. DYFI/SFI goons smashed few stores selling usha uthup’s casettes. You need to wake up and understand the reality. What we are seeing post Mangalore is MORE politics, LESS intellectual honesty.
And we Indian middle class live in duality, denial. How many of us will tell our daughters, sons, parents that we did drink few pegs in a bar when we were young? How will we react should our daughters, sisters visit pubs with skimpy dress and drink and dance? Only very few of us have that courage.
How many of our spouses have ability to accept what the girls did in mangalore if it were done by our sisters/daughters? Let me frankly accept, my spouse wouldn’t accept :)- She did worse- supported what Mutalik ‘s company did :)- She is a CPIM supporter, by the way !
Media, intellectuals too are dishonest. I find madhu Kishwar somewhat truthful, but she brought Radha-Krishna’s affair yesterday (in CNN_IBN) quite unnecessarily.
So, lets not get perturbed with these. As I said, its a media frenzy. They made huge tamasha on Malegaon. But after Mumbai 26/11, they could not pursue Malegaon. Now, they think they got something to beat BJP with. BJP will now play same politics. End of the story.
If you are really bold enough to live by the example of these girls in your own life- quodos to you. I don’t believe in that. And I can;t behave as a hypocrite.
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I have a question. We know there are dress code for visiting Hindu temples. Muslims don;t allow women to visit Mosques. Xtians are turning away from churches.
Can anybody tell us whether Communists implement dresscode for visiting their temples- Like mausoleum of Lenin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh?
That will be interesting to note:)-
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Bomma,
Please read Akkas life history. There are many historians who have researched on her and her existence has been proven. If interested visit places like Srishaila and find for yourselves. There is a very old temple dedicated to Akka. You can go and inspect for yourself. If you disprove her existence I shall accept it gracefully.
I didnt support Sri Rama sene for sure. What makes you think so? Nowhere did i mention that, I support Sri rama sene.
My only objection is that, people use the lame excuses of India being land of Kama-sutra, Khajuraho, naked sadhus etc. Without even understanding the social structure of those periods and the present social structure. I wish everyone had the freedom to roam nude and drink. But is it really possible?? There is a lot difference between being ideal and being pragmatic.
I just told there are so many other women who are being penalised all over. Do these people even have a voice? Its always the page3 and rich who get all notice.
Why doesnt the media highlight those issues?? Where do these Brinda karats, renuka chaudaries go when women in rural areas get raped regularly, get abused by drunk husbands??
How many people have spoken against women being veiled under a burkha? Isnt it curbing their freedom??
Why these double standards?
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Palahalli
Why drag me unncessarily into this fistfight? Since you have, get ready to hold your knickers tight. It is about to drop off.
Kharaharapriya
You speak like a 12th century relic. From the time of Akka Mahadevi, your values have not evolved at all.
So you are saying, under the guise of religion, nudity is ok. but under the banner of any other, nudity is obscene? This is unadulterated hypocrisy. Knowing your double standards, it is no surprise.
Your 12th century mind further asks:
Its become a fashion for these liberals like Renuka chaudary, girija vyas to say india is land of Kama-sutra nudity, blah blah.
Will these people walk nude freely on streets?
Will these people let their daughters roam nude?
Will these people let their husbands have free sex ?
Will they give consent for group sex?
Will they accept their children go nude in a movie if the script demands??
here is the answer:
BJP MP Hema Malini allows her daughter to wear the scantiest of clothes ( if it can be called clothes)
BJP MP Heman Malini allows her daughter to kiss and hug and romance several men (all in the name of acting).
BJP MP Hema Malini married a much married man. Is this Hindu values?
When BJP itself does not have a problem with it, why are you cribbing?
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Thathaghata
Did you say pseudo media?
Do you know one such pseudo media, called NDTV gave a lifetime achievement award to Advani, few days back.
YOu should have seen Prannoy Roy’s face lit up with gushing admiration for Advani when he gave away the award.
I shall give you several insfances to prove that media is pro BJP.
Think before you scribble.
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10s of 1000s of girls , particularly from weaker section and minorities (for whom hearts of puedos are supposed to beat) from west bengal, assam, NE, bihar are being trafficked every month to Mumbai, Delhi’s red-light areas and forces to act as sex slaves…..
why not heart of brinda karat, sonia gandhi bleed for them?
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One advice to these Rama Sena people.They cannot hope to become politicians through these nonsensical acts (That’s what it looks like, what with they telling the media beforehand to be at the scene).
Half the Indian population consists of women.
If they ever hope to get votes, they better be in the good books of the entire women population (If that’s what they are aimimg at – votes).
Today they’re saying going to pubs is against Indian culture.Next they might say women should go out only with a male escort.
Women will do as they wish. In India democracy is not only for men. Democracy is for Women too (wanted to remind the Rama Sena people).
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@ Tatagat Mukherjee:
I have always personally felt that a human being must always engage himself in the pursuit of something which is beyond the imbicile response to our immediate temporal society. And this is the only reason why I find it surprising and disturbing at the same time to notice that people can afford to be worried of others morality in the name of larger cultural good. I have no belief whatsoever in the politics or policies pursued by our politicians and I choose to completely ignore their responses to this. This is primarily due to the fact that there is absolutely nothing that can be done to alter the mindsets of power hungry, illiterate and uncultured brutes that are our politicians. But, we as civilians who need not engage in such moral delinquency should not view this from a political perspective. Even if the whole incident were to be stage managed by some political party, what is it that we can say in justification of this to the young women who were needlessly harrassed to satiate the perverted needs of a few individuals.
I am not sure if you understand what I am trying to say here. Let us step out of this pursuit of life in corrobaration with our immediate society and for once look within us. Are we justified in what we say and feel? Look above for the responses of Palahalli to my comments. A fellow who doesn’t even have the basic courtesy to address someone justly is writing about public morals and physical responses of men to hypothetical situations. In the entire mythological history of Hinduism, do we come across a sage who was bothered or disturbed by the responses of his immediate nature? I know this point will be taken to shreds by men who want to debate but I say sages because these were men who were in the true pursuit of hindu ideals of raising consciousness above the ordinary. We may not be as individuals upto the intellectual or moral levels of the ancient sages of this great land but shouldn’t the pursuit of these very ideals be our priority? The society today seldom gives us a chance to think within ourselves and our constant company of humans necessitates the need to satisfy our ego, the result of which I feel are venomous personal diatribes launched by people like Palahalli. Once you are in there, you do not want to step back on your prior words and the need to be there closes all your senses to any external stimuli which might be a thought tangential to your own.
The only reason I posted in this forum was to have a honorable discussion with people from various backgrounds and try to assimilate their views with mine and learn if there was any shortcomings in my very own ideas of life. As far as you addressing me as Sir is concerned, I am not deserving of such salutations and I am just a 24 year old individual in the pursuit of truth and greater beauty in life, truth and beauty which are independent of others responses in society. And I must also add that I am greatly appreciative of your intention to not be a hypocrite but let that ideal not keep you away from respecting others freedom of thier own life pursuits.
@ Palahalli:
If you feel the need to understand what my ideas are and if you care to, you may go through my above response to Mr. Mukherjee. I am of the opinion that it’s not possible for me to have a debate or discussion with you owing to my own limitations in responding to your queries. And as far as your notions of bravery is concerned, I must add that generating brave questions or even braver responses are not indicative of ones bravery. And in the future I request that you stop passing value judgements on people if possible and restrict yourself to more honrable form of discussing and putting forward opinions. Language, in other words “vidhye” is worshipped in this land as the means of consciousness, as the great gift of our nature for the greater common good. It’s revered as the form of Goddess Saraswati and let this not be utilized in a loose manner by one who is gifted with thought like you are. Bravery is the courage to be honest and to be clean in one’s self.
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The incident has to be condemed. It is very bad. How is it that the media is always at the spot to photograph the incidence when it involves the Hindu activists, where as they are not any where around when the Muslims plant bombs and kill innocent people. Is the teli media involved in all this. An investigation has to be paralelly conducted into the activity of the media. In the Mangalore episode if the media people had informed the police this incident could have been prevented but for the masala news for the media to bite the ruling party.
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The incident should be condemned and the culprits should be booked. But Is media should not be held responsible for knowing about the crime in advance and it has failed miserably.
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My final thoughts
1. What happened has to be condemned unequivocally..
2. Media should be dealt with iron hand for not informing the Cops beforehand about the planned attack even though they had information. Media outlets are EQUALLY culprits for aiding the atrocities on women.
3. A thorough investigation is needed to determine if this was stage managed by Congress + it’s friends.
4. Finally, atrocities on women by muslims and christians should also be reported by media.
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Tathagatha Mukherji:
” ….from west bengal, assam, NE, bihar are being trafficked every month to Mumbai, Delhi’s red-light areas and forces to act as sex slaves…..why not heart of brinda karat, sonia gandhi bleed for them?”
Why does the heart of your bloody “Ram Sena” not beat for them? Taking up this cause would be much better than targeting girls who actually visits a pub by her own FREE choice, isn’t it?
In fact these goons would go to those Red Light areas and have their fun. Actually, one reason is their cowardice. If they try to target red light areas, they will have to contend with *REAL* goons, who will be more than a match for them.
For every point you make about “pseudos”, I can make one about your beloved Senas, Dals, etc. etc. Stop being a bloody apologist for “Ravana Sena”, and stop saying, “O, their INTENTION was good nooo, only their METHODS were wrong naaa”.
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It is high time that women become well equipped to handle such ghanstly situations instead of crying out for help.All women ought to learn some self defence techniques.They also should keep a small pen knife or pepper spray in thier bags so that it comes handy to teach a lesson to the chauvanistic men during such circumstances.
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Prashant Bhatre is upset because of rough language? Get used to it.
He also has written a lot. Let me cut to the chase in each;
Para 1 – I don’t see how you need bother about the Rama Sene folks harassing women in a pub when you self-confessedly don’t want to bother about you’re society’s politics or it’s larger morality. You evidently want to see these in separate water tight compartments. Sorry, doesn’t work that way.
Para 2 – “In the entire mythological history of Hinduism, do we come across a sage who was bothered or disturbed by the responses of his immediate nature?”
– Sad to say, but when one cannot handle a scathing response on a discussion forum, one must not preach about the detachedness of our sages as you seem to do in the manner of an “arrived” preacher. Our sages acted when the need was to act. They did not resign themselves and look “inward” when the time was for action. That is for cowards.
All fluff and a lot of dust was raised…but no level. (my apologies to Ambedkar)
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Simple,
Ha Ha!!
How does admiring Akka make some one old fashioned?? Who told that one shouldnt follow old-fashioned stuff?? Is there a diktat as such?? Or who told everything modern and new is good??
You need not be religious to admire akka. She is a role model for any woman. Study her life as woman not as a religious saint, then you can admire her guts, her will power.
There is no point in arguing on this subject with you because you know very less about her. Get some gyan on her life, later we can discuss it.
I never said nudity is obscene?? Please read my posts correctly. I said I am welcome to people roaming nude, provided they are well aware of the prying eyes, they are well aware that men can take advantage of the same. You are welcome to do so, but dont complain later that someone molested you. Its impossible for any police force to provide individual security. Nor can you trust these police men.
Even a fully clad Sriya saran was molested by a fan in tirupati. So just think how vulnerable our women are who dress skimpily?? My only point is very simple, if you can protect and defend yourself well, do what you feel like.
I am least concerned about Esha Deol/Hema Malini. Nor am I a BJP spokesperson, nor do i owe allegations to BJP. Why ask me ask the BJP?
Congress also has lots of skimpily clad women supporters, please dont forget.Regarding Esha deol/Hema Malini if you felt what she did was wrong and obsence you can file a case against her. You can also file a case against Celina Jaitely, Koena mitra and other cleavage showing Bhojpuri dancers who all have campaigned for Congress and other secular parties.Always dont bring this BJP vs Congress funda. You can discuss it wit Palahalli in the other thread. I am not interested.
Its very obvious this is a political ploy. Where you can suspect both the BJP and congress for the obvious reasons. We can keep speculating if BJP is behind or congress is behind, but we will never get answers.
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Vinay, why the confusion? This debate has been dragged by Liberals out of the “pub incident” into the general lifestyle domain. If you limit it to the incident, you will receive appropriate related responses. If not, then please deal with the entire gamut.
And let me inform you that you will not find supporters for a free-wheeling lifestyle from amongst folks who work with Sex-Workers. That’s because apart from “involuntary” trafficking…you’re favored lifestyle is one of the reasons for “voluntary” trafficking. Question of spending money and peer pressure buddy..
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What one wants to wear and drink is someting that is to be left to individuals volition. We are not running shariah in India.Rama sena thugs have no business bashing up women.
But, the hysteria of the english ELM makes one wonder what are these guys upto? why such hulabaloo over a incident that can be termed minor(exept in the cases of bleeding heart liberals like prashant bhat) in comparison to the rapes and murders of women that dont even find a mention in those very channels.
Anybody who views the ad nauseaum repeats of the incident on NDTV(someone very rightlty called it Nehru Dynasty TV) would be surely suspicious of something fishy cooking. Not until i read deccan chronicle. As per Deccan Chronicle, the girls at the pub were taken there by boys from ‘A particular community’ (now all know that our media never identifies the thieves by their names but cry out Hindu terrorism with no evidence).
If thats really the case, then its a matter of serious concern to me as a Hindu, especially when we have become second class citizens in this country despite being the majority community. (to quote an Eg Jihadi E Ahamed flew out to saudi to get a fellow malayali jihadi released. efforts to get back a malayali christist named samkutty was held by iraqis, the central government intervened, the foreign minister flew there, and they got him released. but when maniappan ramankutty, a kerala hindu, was held by the taliban, MF E.ahamed simply wasnt there. Maniappan was beheaded..)
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@ Palahalli:
Responses which are scathing and not to the point do not serve purpose. There are like anonymous graffitti on the walls of a public urinal. They just cater to the base animal instincts of the author (i.e. if you might take the liberty to call someone who writes nonsense on walls as an author).
If you had cared to read correctly what I had written, I had said I was not concerned about what the politicians did because of their detachment with the common mans good. Thus there is no reason for you to think that I should not be worried about the incident. And for your remarks about living in the present in the other post, I do not see how you can be with your archaic and barbaric notions of human independence. But since you have cared to air your views so casually and have been earnestly replying to my posts, I take it upon me to try and have a meaningful discussion with you provided you refrain from your rhetoric. It seems unjust to to make concversations at my convenience but you are free to refuse, refute and rebutt. And for the comment on sages, I had predicted the response and had a mention of it in the previous post itself.
At the outset could you please provide your opinion on this?
i) Are men to assume by themselves or by the evolutionary experiences that they are to be the caretakers of women in society?
ii) If the answer to the above question is yes, than is it necessitated by the uncivilized society that we live in where men with insatiable libido claim that scantily clad women turn them on toward sexual assault?
iii) If the answer to the above question is also yes, than what are the viable options we have? Should we be moral policing men with uncontrolled libido or scantily clad women?
iv) And finally, if it’s the question of upholding our culture than should we be finding and correcting our own flaws or should we be out policing others forcibly?
I hope we are in consensus atleast on the fact that, unlike islamic preachers who are interpreting age old laws in present day scenario and creating havoc, hinduism is a way of life which has remained strong all these years only because of its ability to assert itself on current times. And the assertion has never been by volunteers who proclaimed themselves as the guardians of this countrys culture.
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@ Bamboo Basappa:
All I can say at your shallow take on my comment is that you have a very funny name under whic you post.
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Vinod Khanna a long time disciple of Osho Rajneesh is a BJP MP. He was in the Osho Ashram in the 70s when rampant sexual excesses and nudity were the norm in the pune ashram. Why rama sena is not targetting their own Hindutva MP.
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Prashanth Bhat –
1. You’re first para is irrelevant until you tell me what was not to the point.
2. Wrt you’re second para, I will say that as long you don’t concern yourself with what politicians do, they will be equally unconcerned. In you’re words, “detached”.
It also appears you make accusations about my views being “barbaric and archaic”, and not particularly in that order; without explaining why. Please justify you’re stance.
Now to you’re queries –
i) Are men to assume by themselves or by the evolutionary experiences that they are to be the caretakers of women in society?
* It is never “assumed” unless assumption comes on the heel of experience. It is most always evolutionary.
ii) If the answer to the above question is yes, than is it necessitated by the uncivilized society that we live in where men with insatiable libido claim that scantily clad women turn them on toward sexual assault?
* Of course it is necessitated. And I believe this condition has never really been any different in earlier times too. Yes, the quality of protection that women have received has varied.
iii) If the answer to the above question is also yes, than what are the viable options we have? Should we be moral policing men with uncontrolled libido or scantily clad women?
* You think you can identify men with “uncontrolled libido”:) Please tell me how. You can certainly identify a “scantily” dressed woman.
Now, no one can identify such “bad” men because all men row the same boat. It’s part of our human nature. Unless the fellow is a tapasvi.
I have asked this question before; wish you respond to those questions-“Scenarios”.
Why does a woman wear and the word is “scanty”, clothing in public? As common sense dictates, it is to gain attention. Now, obviously, the quality of attention in public will vary wildly. Some men may just ogle, others whistle under their breath…still others may make a pass…still others may get “bold” enough to brush against the woman…still fewer may actually be manly enough to approach and propose a date.
Certainly the woman is not at fault for wearing what she wears. It’s the men who cannot really control their natural selves. To ignore this reality is foolish and “other worldly”.
iv) And finally, if it’s the question of upholding our culture than should we be finding and correcting our own flaws or should we be out policing others forcibly?
* I really wish you were more practical in you’re suggestions. Our culture does not dictate manner of dressing. What it certainly guides us to do is to live in harmony. There is simply no way one can ensure harmony if women decide to wear just so much of cloth and walk around in public. Men are not prepared and really, I don’t see them getting there any time in future too.
One true story – There was this beautiful young woman who was walking past me (I was driving) and all of a sudden I realized that even though she was wearing a long skirt and blouse, that skirt was so translucent, it was really transparent. It did not seem as if she had realized it, but I don’t know. It was a sunny day and all that was clearly visible was her panty. Luckily, as in a protective environment, it was also pretty crowded; next to Lifestyle. She had no escort with her.
If I were walking alongside this lady, I would request her to change. What would you do?
I find this entire comparison with Islam and Mullahs, to be a great sham. Akin to abusing Hindutva-vadis as fascist. An easy way to avoid further argument. Folks expect that conservative Hindus will now get scared and shut up. You’re reasoning on the subject is also superficial. A simple analogy would be that of the Pig and the Cow. These are not eaten by Muslims and some Hindus, respectively.
The reason Muslims do not eat the pig is because they detest it as filth. The reason some Hindus don’t eat the cow is because they love it as the veritable mother. Such is the difference in their respective treatment of women too. (All exceptions apart)
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Suma ji,
Pepper spray and small knives are against one or two rowdies not against 40 odd goons violating the modesty of women in the name of Ram.
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@Prashant Bhat: what you say makes perfect sense in laboratory, under controlled environment :)- Unfortunately, in India, we live in a messy democracy. WAKE UP- EVERYBODY IS NAKED IN THIS HAMAM.
Tell me one group who has not opposed free expression? CPIM banned movie during Calcutta film fair. Christian groups did that with Da Vinci. Muslims did Taslima, Rushdie. Cong do that quite often. Now you expect me to applaud MF Hussian? WHY WHY? WHY ME BROTHER?
Its this double standard that emboldens Hindutva.
Vinay: Its job of administration led by psuedos in west bengal to protect women from exploitation. Why you expect Rama Sene to protect women of WB, while Brinda Karat will keep on lecturing.
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Bhatre,
posing a set of ying-yang divergent questions doesnt automatically qualify you as some Bertrand Russel.As you have confessed,you are losing too much sleep(like our manmoron singh over a jihadi doc) and hence all the balderdash! onderdu dina maneekkolli manyaage
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Palahalli
“Why does a woman wear and the word is “scanty”, clothing in public? As common sense dictates, it is to gain attention. ”
Enu sir…. You are attributing motives to women. I am sure no women wants “attention” however men might wish/think.
“It’s the men who cannot really control their natural selves. ”
There is a difference b/w humans with thinking capacity and animals.
Of course, all the talk of “Hindu Taliban” is media hyperbole. They dare not raise their voice when Taslima is attacked and a nun in Kerala is murdered by church “fathers”.
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Sandesh>>Of course, all the talk of “Hindu Taliban” is media hyperbole. They dare not raise their voice when Taslima is attacked and a nun in Kerala is murdered by church “fathers”.
What else to expect from psuedo media and discredited fundoos who have made a profession out of abuse of anuthing Hindu and put under wrap, often supporting obstructionist version of minority religion(s).
WANT TO SEE TALIBANI CULTURE IN INDIA? REAL TALIBANS IN INDIA?
There are many villages, some even 50 miles within Delhi, where Islamists have BANNED teleivision, Radio, even BANNED HAIR CUT. These are parts of Mewat region and many Islamist groups are working round the clock there.
There are many many villages in bordering areas of West Bengal that have BENNED TV, RADIO, songs.
Very rarely media writes about them. WHY?
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C’mon Sandesh…pal! Of course all of us “dress up” to impress. Not just the womenfolk. Its very natural. In fact, “shringara” is much appreciated in Hindu culture. And a woman dressing to dare certainly seeks attention. She just doesn’t have much control over who gives that attention though. And there lies the problem.
I guess the subtlety that women are endowed with, flows from this obvious power they have over men and the manner they use it to advantage. Nothing negative is intended here.
This may surprise you but Savarkar, in one of his books mentions the need for a woman to look beautiful.
And Sir, men getting attracted to a beautiful woman is very natural and human. Its true that sometimes we tend to lose ourselves and thence the control…but nothing wrong with basic instincts. Its also true that that’s something we share with animals, the most.
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LOL.. It was funny seeing the guys and gals run helter-skelter :D hagalalle kootu eNNe hoDitave munDevu :D
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@ Palahalli:
In the first place, your honest replies are really appreciated and I understand that there is a genuine difference of opinion between us which cannot be bridged because I feel that our responses to a ceratin situation though might be the same, the attribution of responsibility to those actions would be entirely different.
Somewhere down the line, you wish that women were more responsible in their actions (read, way of dressing) such that it didn’t offend the society at large or that it didn’t prompt men to react vulgarly so that it would leave the women safe and honorable. But our differences lie in the second consequence. While I am also strongly against anybody, male or female, offending the society by violation of uncoded commonly accepted behaviour, I am all against attributing the offence on women for the irresponsible behaviour of men.
The problem lies in how we define what is offensive and who defines what is offensive? And the generally sane thing to do would be to live comfortably within the realms of safety. Saying this, I will never be able to come to terms with the act of few scoundrels in Mangalore. Would you Palahalli, indulge in such remorseless act of beating up a weaker opponent just to push your views on somebody else? And if “scantily dressed” is immoral & indecent, what is 40 men rounding up 5 women and beating the hell out of them?
I am personally of the opinion that in a civilized society, issues must be settled through discussion and debate and not through forcible suppression of one’s interest. And since it almost entirely seems implausible in our country of a billion, I must as well do well to forget and forgo my notions of personal freedom. There has been a lot of personal ranting in my post and that is just a reflection of my struggles as an individual to come to terms with the harsh ways of the world. In my 18 years of stay with my parents in my hometown, I have never had to come to terms with differences of opinion snowballing into physical assault. And I feel it’s possible for us to live in harmony without being oppressive of others. But perhaps, there is too much of struggle in life for men today to think of peace and harmony. As i cited earlier, we are a civilization in an advanced stage of decay.
Finally, I thank you for the time taken to respond to my posts and wish you and your family well.
@ Tatagat Mukherjee:
Free expression is very important irrespective of your relegious leaning. And as you said before, as much as you don’t choose to be hypocrite, I also do not prefer to be one.
I have not been against Da Vinci Code, Taslima Nasreen, Rushdie or MF Hussein wrinting or painting what they want. Yet I have been extremely critical of some of Rushdies works. I have not bothered to read Da Vinci Code because that hasnever appealed to me. Hussains paintings some times I feel are are amusing and irresponsible but it doesn’t offend me. Thus, what I wish to say is that I cannot accord the same reaction to a situation just because people of other community did the same. If you do not wish to be a hypocrite your actions have to be based upon your own personal view of an issue and not upon the views and reactions of an uncultured society like the communists and the muslims. Mr. Mukherjee, are we trying to bridge the gap between us and them by being as worse as they are or is it that we just cannot stop ourselves in this era where everybody else is trying to asceratin his or her communitys superiority by violent means.
@ Bamboo Basappa:
I am still laughing at your name. The bamboo in the wrong place is apparently stopping you from having any sane thoughts! And as far as Bertrand Russel is concerned, you would do well to not take the name of that great logician, especially with a bamboo within you. And get a life mate, how long are you gonna just identify posts and have personal takes on them?
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Kharaharapriya
You grasped it wrong.
I NEVER said admiration of AKKA is bad.
In fact, i praise her revolutionary act of not clothing herself. She is one of my idols.
I merely said you have a 12th century mindset. Meaning ancient.
Thank you for coming around to my view that nudity is not obscene.
Women can dress the way the want.
But Ram sena insists that it is not HIndu culture to dress scantily.
In that case, Ram Sena should ask BJP MP Hema jee to ask her daughther to dress in a Hindu way.
Strange that Ram SEna picks on soft targets in pubs and not take on powerful MPs like Hema, who is from an organisation which supposedly champions Hindus rights, like Ram sena itself claims it does.
Ram sena chief has further added that its time for every women to have bombs in their hands. (see today’s Times of India,30th jan 2008, front page, bangalore edition)
I wonder if this is Hindu culture. This is plagiarsim of deranged fanatics in the Islamic world.
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Simple,
Ha Ha. My mindset is ancient. Thanks :P
Even after keeping akka as your idol, why would you like to use that as an excuse for Mallikas sherawats going nude?? don’t act like a politician.
You cannot compare Akka to a sex object and all those maniacal feminists. Without even making efforts to understand the social mindset during the ancient times, how can you say olden days people were nude, we ll also go nude.
You can go and nit pick on Ram sene, Hema and Esha. You can bring it to the notice of the Rama sene members as well. I am least bothered. Why just Esha and Hema, as i said you can also give the names of Celina and Koena as well to the rama sene folks.
My point is very simple. If these actresses indulges in on screen sex, its bold and free. Isnt it legalized prostitution?? Then why arrest many females and make prostitution an offense? As per the present laws you should arrest both of them. So feel free to file FIRs against Hema, Celina, Esha and others.
There are women who get molested during New years regularly. Do you think these people also belong to the sene?? They need not. Even well educated folks can molest.
Obviously every woman cant be provided with body guards by the government. If you can protect yourselves, go walk around nude. For that get the law pertaining to obscenity also repealed.
But something that matters the most is how many people feel that its obscene. How many men of present day will look down a drunk and nude woman in cheap light? How many men view a such women as objects fo titillation.
So better protect yourselves, rather than be sorry that you got molested. If you cant protect or arrange for a protection dont dare try such acts in our society.
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Prashanth Bhat – If you read my posts, I do not support the violence.
For a debate to happen, a culture of debate must be encouraged. Our Liberals and Muslti-Cultural fetishists, inspite of their stranglehold on MSM, do not belive in free exchange of divergent thoughts. They are actually the true thought police and fascists to boot.
When I experience this intellectual asphyxiation, I tend to view Rama Sena’s antics sympathetically. To be honest, they would have been laughed out of the Liberal court if they had held placards and stood outside of those pubs. “That” would never have generated any debate at all. Not even a byline in MSM newspapers.
No, please hold the Liberal cabal responsible for this and any further deterioration in peace.
****
Simple says,”This is plagiarsim of deranged fanatics in the Islamic world.”
I say, “Absolutely! Spot on!” and “deal with it!”
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bhat
are your posts some kinda seminal philosophical articulations and not takes on someone else’s posts? bamboo serves dual purpose.. one to shove the hell up of liberals like you and then for preparing ur chatta
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I am with the media in this matter.
Why should anyone wear any clothes at all? God made us nude.
Why should women not booze and fornicate freely? Why should men object to it? The culture would only favour men who might have the chance of taking advantage of women easier.
And if Moslem guys use them and then force them to convert, is it not okay? It is a matter of the women’s individual choice to be used by a Moslem or a Hindu.
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All the boys and girls of Rajasthan should protest against Ghelot by holding hands and walking to the nearest mall or shopping centre.
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@Prashant Bhat>>I have not been against Da Vinci Code, Taslima Nasreen, Rushdie or MF Hussein wrinting or painting what they want
Very good. But show us something that you opposed to what was done to taslima, Rushdie, or DVCode. Treating MF Hussian as a hero- as usually done by psuedos, but keeping mum on Taslima/Rushdie/DVC is worst kind of arrogance, communalization.
—————
>>are we trying to bridge the gap between us and them by being as worse as they are…
For over two decades of my adult life I tried to bridge the gap. But now I have reached a conclusion that it has become very dangerous to keep mum, or support psuedos.
I now believe what preeminet Indian novelist Sarat Chandra Chatterjee spoke before Bangiya Sahitya Parishat in mid 1920s- the height of Khilafat movement:
“…the Hindu-muslim problem we see today can be solved in one day. THE DAY HINDUS UNITE, all these problems will be resolved.”
This is the only sensible way to save the country and the world. Yes, my version of Hinduism is not casteism, oppression on women, mindless ritual. Its enlightened one that of swami vivekanand & others. We need to save the ONLY religion that is plural in its outlook- which does NOT claim “my God is the ONLY God, all others are infidel/heathen”.
——————-
>>we just cannot stop ourselves in this era where everybody else is trying to asceratin his or her communitys superiority by violent means
Even Dalai Lama stated few days back that non-violence will NOT work with terrorists. Because the minds of terrorists are closed.
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Palahalli,
“If you read my posts, I do not support the violence. ”
vs.
“When I experience this intellectual asphyxiation, I tend to view Rama Sena’s antics sympathetically.”
Both in same post.
Guru make up your mind :)
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bomma – I don’t have time to teach you English. You seem pretty bright. Look up a dictionary.
Tathagata – Not just “pseudos”, any Secular fellow will be anti-Hindu. Because, by definition, he has given up Hinduism. Any fellow who tells us otherwise either does not understand what he’s talking about or he is a plain liar. This “pseudo” business is confusing Hindus and blunting our intellect.
There is no choice. It would be better if we simply use Hindu(s) and identify the rest depending on what they profess themselves to be.
Moreover, if someone says he or she is Secular…who are we to tell them they are “pseudo secular”? How are they even different?
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@ Bamboo Basappa:
:)
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“When I experience this intellectual asphyxiation, I tend to view Rama Sena’s antics sympathetically.”
Kudos Palahalli… you speak my mind!
Things have degenerated to such an extent that going naked (or almost naked), smoking, drinking, doing drugs have come to signify “progress and liberation” of women!! And this is justified by all sorts of assorted nonsense like AkkaMahadevi, “don’t boys drink, smoke and do drugs?”, “we are a free country, we have the right to live the way we want” etc.,.!
Free country does not mean that someone has the right to live the way they want! Heck, you can’t do that even in your own house! As long as one is not game to withdrawing from society and living in the Himalayas or somewhere, there is such a thing as societal norms one has to abide by. And “society” includes everyone — my grandparents, your grandparents, myself, yourself and everyone else. If a great many of them take exception to a certain kind of behaviour or finds it revulsive (for whatever reasons) then, such behaviour has no place in civilised society. When the media and so-called intelligentsia refuses to even acknowledge that there is such a thing–a real thing– as “societal norms” and worse, proceeds to paint it in pejorative and condescending light as “morality”, I will gleefully support what the Rama Sena types do. Congratulations Rama Sena!! God bless you.
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Thoreau in 1849, in some other context:
“Thus the State never intentionally confronts a man’s sense, intellectual or moral, but only his body, his senses. It is not armed with superior wit or honesty, but with superior physical strength. I was not born to be forced. I will breathe after my own fashion. Let us see who is the strongest. What force has a multitude? They only can force me who obey a higher law than I. They force me to become like themselves. I do not hear of men being forced to have this way or that by masses of men. What sort of life were that to live?”
Open to interpretation. Ram sene supporters free to interpret it their own way :)
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“…That’s the problem with some women. They wear these cleavage showing dresses. You want to wear these tight tight tight jeans which literally stick to their rear ends. You wear such low cut jeans that they almost fall off their bodies. They wear low-cut blouses, skimpy tops and backless cholis and walk around in broad daylight….”
“..Those girls who want to rub against a man with his hands in her underpants at a time when decent people are in bed, those girls who want to wear the bare minimum and show off their well-toned gymmed bodies to the whole world at unearthly hours, please understand that when you want the whole world to see what you’ve got there are pervets and maniacs who will try to sample it. Not for a moment am I trying to justify this shocking incident but women need to appreciate the country they are living and its codes and customs. Abide by those customs, dress modestly and in accordance with our 5000 year old culture and there won’t be any need for such Senas…”
@ProudHindu
You disgust me. I don’t see why you are getting your lauda wet because some girl in “skimpy tops” is “rubbing” it with some man. Grow the fuck up man…
The girls have every right to dress as they please and rub it against whomsoever and wheresoever they choose. If you did even a little perusal of your “5000” ( want me to add one more zero?) year old culture, you would notice that it had a saner attitude towards sex and social mores than your shitty rant above.
The problem with India is that there are too many ignorant fucks running around who have no have understanding of the basics of freedom, Democracy and respect for the rule of law. India is a bizarre
concoction of profoundly medieval/tribal mindsets with dashes of
sanity thrown in; A nation of illiterates, vigilantes, religious freaks and ass clowns struggling with a system of governance that they barely comprehend.
BTW, ProudHindu, Have you ever had a woman “rub” herself against you with your “hands in her underpants” ? haha! LOL!
You should try it sometime! You will learn more than all the Vedas, Upanishads, Korans, Bibles or something else some sue-lay magaa wrote, put together.
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bomma – The Indian “State” today, is impotent. Thoreau in 2009 India, is irrelevant. Guess who is responsible for this “state” (pun much intended) of affairs?
And of course “Melange” talks about the “..problem with India…”.
If I should not waste more time with this stupendous imbecile, I would ask him to read his own tripe and gather just how dangerous it is for girls “to rub” or “get rubbed” in a public place when there are “too many ignorant fucks running around who have no have understanding of the basics of freedom, Democracy and respect for the rule of law.” (The abhorrent English, is of course, Melange’s)
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Palahalli,”If I should not waste more time with this stupendous imbecile…”
I can’t decide what is smaller about Palahalli. His heart, his vituperative English or his gonads. One who makes so much noise, must not be endowed well, no?
The little shit says, “Thoreau in 2009 India, is irrelevant.”
To your sorry ass, maybe, Palahalli. (Why don’t you hang out in Ulsoor Lake…get some fundas – Walden, remember?)
But oh no, you must respond to every little affront to your tiny world view (tiny gonads?).
Please take your meds today.
Thank you, Palahalli.
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“Chintamani” of “run-away when I have to account for”, fame! Welcome! Welcome!
I promise to answer you if you promise not to run away again like you did on that liar Guha’s accusations :)
Case of no gonads at all?
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