A distressing feature of Indian public life today is the ease with which “hate” has become an integral, almost acceptable, part of the discourse. A thick cloud of hate—on the basis of region and religion, caste, culture and creed, language and sex—now hangs heavy.
In this churumuri.com exclusive, T.J.S. GEORGE, founder-editor of Asiaweek magazine, editorial advisor of The New Indian Express, and the author of the acclaimed biography of M.S. Subbulakshmi, writes on the ground that is shifting beneath our feet.
***
By T.J.S. GEORGE
In one respect this election season differs from previous ones: Incitement of religious hatred has become cruder and more reckless than before. Perhaps politicians see this as an easy way to win populist votes.
It certainly helps some pygmies to appear like giants.
Remember, till yesterday Pramod Mutalik (in picture, left) was an unknown frog in an unknown well. Today, he is a national figure, his face gracing every front page and every channel. That is the power of vulgar religious politics.
Similar is the case of Varun Gandhi (right), the spoilt son of a spoilt father.
When the boy was enrolled in the Rishi Valley School in Madanapalli, he wouldn’t eat for three days because neither the food nor the atmosphere suited the privileges he was accustomed to. Only because the staff and fellow students ignored his tantrums, and because hunger has a logic of its own, the privileged Gandhi reconciled to the culture of Jiddu Krishnamurti.
Kids born with a proprietorial attitude to everything around them rarely shed their air of superiority. Even his mentors in the BJP found Varun Gandhi to be egoistic and lightweight; his only “merit” was his surname. Then he came up with this new message of venomous religious hatred. Suddenly, the immature bambino was on every front page and every channel. Another Nobody turned into Somebody.
This is a political game where the players do not lose because they have protectors behind them. The citizen loses because he was no recourse when laws are broken at his cost.
Mutalik’s thugs could beat up citizens and walk proudly away because those who were supposed to protect citizens were inclined to protect the thugs instead. The court has banned this illegal moralist from entering certain areas. What if the police does not stop him? The system collapses when the state is party to evil.
The game, as played, is full of humbug and internal contradictions. Varun Gandhi announces that Pilibhit is a “violence-prone” constituency where Hindus are subjected to injustices. This is a serious charge against his mother, Maneka Gandhi, who has so far been representing Pilibhit in the Lok Sabha.
Clearly, the son is looking for what the original Gandhi, the Mahatma, called “the hasty applause of an unthinking public”.
He will not succeed, for never in history have hatemongers won the day. Three centuries of religious crusades by European Christianity gained nothing despite all the bloodletting, murders and cruelties. Hatred between Palestinians and Israelis continues to sacrifice generations without helping the cause of either. The mutual antipathies of Shias and Sunnis hold back the progress of all Arabs. Nazi Germany’s pogrom against Jews eventually destroyed the Nazis, not the Jews. Even the bond of Islam could not unite the Sindhi-Punjabis of West Pakistan with the Bengalis of East Pakistan.
Those who spew venom in the name of Bharatiyata are unworthy to speak of India’s civilisational greatness, let alone defend it. They take Rama as their mascot without knowing that Ramayana begins with a call by Valmiki in defence of two love birds.
When a hunter shot down one of the birds, the poet cried out Ma nishada. Brahma himself then appeared and urged the Adi Kavi to compose the story of Rama in the same poetic form.
Who represents Bharatiyata‘s beauty and greatness: Valmiki, who was outraged by the tragedy that struck two birds in love, or today’s petty men who hate love itself in the name of morality?
Ma nishada!
Photographs: courtesy Outlook (left), The Hindu
Also read: ‘The man who sowed the dragon seeds of hatred’
Wow!! what an article… this would just zip up any sanghi mouth…
No no these people do not spell Bharatiyata.
Only AR Antule, Prakash Karat, Lalu Prasad, Devegouda, Jagadish Titler. Mr. Banatwala, Mulayam Sing And the GR8 Sonia are the real Baratiya people.
According to Gr8 people any one to be called Bharatiya should and must hate Hindu. If any one talk of Hindus are to be termed as Hindu extremists. That’s all the so called intellectual people have come to conclusion.
Buffoon is too polite a word. These are uncouth, unfeeling, uneducated and uncivilized brutes.
Their understanding of Bharatiyata and Hindutva doesn’t go beyond what women wear and who goes with whom and when! They spew venom at anything they don’t like and profess violence to achieve their aims.
Everything a democracy shouldn’t have.
While I have grave concerns about Congresses development record, with BJP this country will go down the path of Pakistan. Where religious ideology will become the state ideology. Where thugs will be protected for acts of religiosity.
In puttur, there were attacks last week with people in mask assaulting on people for flimsy reasons. Thus the similarity with Ku-klux-klan is complete. These groups and ideology will go the same way as KKK in India too, for majority of Indians don’t subscribe to their narrow minded point of view.
The beginning will be by telling the BJP/RSS to reform, and get rid of such militant and extreme elements. The way to do that would be to vote against them.
Another venomous christian propagandist speaking typical anti-Hindu diatribe.
What Varun Gandhi did as a kid in a school, away from his mother is hardly relevant today, for a 29 years old youth. This is an ill-concealed attempt to malign an adult person for childish tantrums and pranks.
People who are raising their hands against the Hindus are not as harmless as the two Krauncha birds which figure in Ramayana. They are more akin to vultures. This pseudo secularist venom will give birth to more Mutaliks and Varun Gandhis. That Varun Gandhi, who is so far not known to have spoken in this tone has done shows that the pseudo secularist politicians and media are providing enough provocation to more and more Hindus to become strident in their protests.
India is essentially a Hindu country. So called multiculturalism is a mixture of sulphur, charcol and potassium nitrite, as the experience is showing. A person who has disowned his ansectral religion can hardly comment on Bharatiyata.
Georgie Boy has this uncommon knack of ccoming up with a big innings before an election:) Any way nobody in his right mind is holding up Muthalik and others as the mascots of Hinduism. As the Hubballi man observed ..”are only AR Antule, Prakash Karat, Lalu Prasad, Devegouda, Jagadish Tytler. ThiruKa, Banatwala, Mulayam Singh, Amar Singh, and Sonia Gandhi the real venomous buffoons that spell secular?”
That said, I too am worried that BJP cadre is not inspiring the young and the undecided to vote for them!
Yeddi is “so much bhakthi parawasha’ that the idiot doesn’t know that there is a big thrashing awaiting him at the lokasabha elections! You cannot solve the State’s problems by visiting temples 24/7!
completely agree with you Mr.Gururaj B.N… well said.
@ Gururaj
Your cheap racist shot at someone who has “disowned his ancestral religion” should not be dignified with a comment. But what is precisely “anti-Hindu” in George’s piece, besides your spectacular but hardly surprising conclusion that it is “Christian propaganda”, possibly because it doesn’t meet your low standards?
If pointing out the thugs amidst us who are using the license of Hinduism to drag Hinduism into the gutters is “anti-Hindu”, then so be it. It is the mark of an evolved civilisation that takes such criticism whether it comes from a Gangadhar, a George, a Ghafoor or whoever. Sadly, the “venomous buffoons” seem intent on turning a great civilisation called Hinduism into a “B” grade version of the one they decry: Islam.
Taking blind potshots at secularism, liberalism, multi-culturalism has become the signature tune of the Hindutva Herd which has mortgaged its mind. Why blame “pseudo-secularism” to explain Pramod Mutalik’s actions or Varun Gandhi’s words? Mutalik, Gandhi and Co are the worms in the rotten toothpaste that L.K. Advani and his ilk have squeezed out of the tube for majority votes while decrying the Congress’ minority appeasement.
Arun Nehru’s comment on the diminishing returns of such politics, as reflected by the desertion of the BJP’s allies post 2004, should convince you that the people of this great country are not ready to take the low road. But then, I suppose you have a problem with his name as well.
I believe you are referring to a phenomenon which follows pervasiveness of corporate media – a fascist tactic, though they were/are not alone in using it. This old piece details the basic method :
http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/107326/former_news_radio_staffer_spills_the_beans_on_how_shock_jocks_inspire_hatred_and_anger/
Hopefully that comes through.
It certainly helps some pygmies to appear like giants.
Remember, till yesterday Pramod Mutalik (in picture, left) was an unknown frog in an unknown well. Today, he is a national figure, his face gracing every front page and every channel. That is the power of vulgar religious
politics.
Similar is the case of Varun Gandhi .
why give importance to what such mentally sick people say…and hearing,reading the words that fool said again and again on t.v,newspapers will only outrage people…..
Prashant Krishnamurthy – “Sadly, the “venomous buffoons” seem intent on turning a great civilization called Hinduism into a “B” grade version of the one they decry: Islam.”
– There is no use arguing with buffoons, venomous or not. That is why I will tell Shri PK only this; Varun Gandhis will now come in the dozens…and multiples of the same. If Liberals persist in their habits…Islam will seem very mild compared to what Hindus will make of Hinduism.
You’re choice entirely.
Oh yes, as far as Arun Nehru’s point on the BJP losing it’s allies; please make a mental note.
Naveen Patnaik will not be able to stop another Kandhamal even if he comes with a 100% majority in the assembly. That’s just one illustration.
Here’s one Liberal habit you should get rid off. Missing the wood for the trees.
Agree with George. It looks like Varun Gandhi badly wants to get out of politics!
Why aren’t popular english media pursuing congress’ loudmouths?
Last assembly elections, though Slum Ramesha put advertisements in Kannada in all papers including SoM stating that after Ramakrishna Hegde, he is the leader of Brahmins and all. No Englist news paper covered it though even their papers carried that ad. nor did the EC take any action about it. In the same time, those papers wrote about some pooje organised by BJP somewhere near Mysore.
Why does that happen?
Want to re-iterate Prashant’s first para to Gururaj BN. Not sure which part struck him as Christian propaganda ; especially since it talks to the contrary in places “ — Three centuries of religious crusades by European Christianity gained nothing despite all the bloodletting, murders and cruelties– .
Like Prashant said “It is the mark of an evolved civilisation that takes such criticism whether it comes from a Gangadhar, a George, a Ghafoor or whoever.”..
“Your cheap racist shot ”
Whoa.. tone down will you ?
What Gururaj said is a matter of fact. What is so “racist” about this ?
“evolved civilisation that takes such criticism whether it comes from a Gangadhar, a George, a Ghafoor or whoever.”
If you care to read up the reform movements of India… starting from Buddha to Basavanna, you will know that Hindus are most receptive and open to constructive criticism. But that criticism should have a focus. What VG did when he was a small kid is totally irrelevant here. That, my friend, was a cheap shot.. it was intended to show that VG has always been a “boy” throwing tantrums!
“Taking blind potshots at secularism, liberalism, multi-culturalism has become the signature tune of the Hindutva Herd”
Same as taking blind potshots and spewing venom at anything related to India, Hindu and its heritage by the commie/psecular groups.
“Why blame “pseudo-secularism” to explain Pramod Mutalik’s actions or Varun Gandhi’s words? ”
if not for “pseudo-secularism” VG would not have said these words…. (Well, muthalik is a fool and one should not even talk about him.. it will give him publicity, which is his sole reason!)
“that the people of this great country are not ready to take the low road”
I am not so sure… In the state polls leading to LS, remember BJP has won the majority. And more and more people are willing to take the low road. But then, I suppose you are too cocooned in your pseudo-world to take notice of reality.
Indian politicians only reflect their sacred people: corrupt, amoral, small minded, petty and hateful. The politicians don’t have to divide the people; the people are already divided!
The little shit (Varun Gandhi) is just trying to cash in on ancient hatreds. He has learned well from his power hungry whore of a grand mother and his vampire father, both of whom were instrumental in the imposing of the emergency in 1976 and the torments that came with it.
And what did the good Indian people do? Why, They just elected the old cow back to power after three years!
So, T.J.S George , your lament is indeed well written. But the people you address are tone deaf. They are beholden to an evil that does not know civility or discourse.
As an aside,
Look at the fine product that Jiddu Krishnamurti’s Rishi valley school has produced! Haha!!
So much for the “radical transformation” s-h-i-t-e that Jiddu espoused…
LOL…
Hard to disagree with T. J. S. Varun Gandhi and Pramod Mutalik come nowhere near representing “Bharatheeyathe.” I certainly will not go to the extent of agreeing with Gururaj that ours is a Hindu country, but do wonder what the old journalist thinks of the imported empress of India? How does she represent Indianness? For that matter how about thousands and thousands of politicians across the country who daily mouth words like justice and equality and live like Kuberas? Yes, the press moghuls that George works for?
India and Indianness are still unfinished products. That is the price history is extracting from us for letting the Congress leaders rush Britain to grant independence without the slightest idea what social and political infrastructure the new country would need. Nehru enslaved us to the Soviets and his successors are now selling India out to the U. S. for a few dollars.
for a change, NDTV, though not in support of Varun, did cover the real feelings of people of Pilibhit. How the Hindu Majority is marginalized and the land being ruled by three Moslim MLAs and how 28 out of 30 vacancies go to the minority.
statement by statement: What Varun said: “Any hand that raises against Hindus will be cut down”: it’s a real relief to real Hindus.
He was wrong in mentioning their names as Karimulla etc though.
Dear PK,
Your drivel makes one fact clear: that you do not know what racism is. In India, there are no different races. All persons irrespective of their religious denomination belong to same race.
If you want to know what racism is, read Hitler’s autobiography. Read about white supremacists. To the best of my knowledge, none in India has advanced such claims of superiority, not have I done so. Barring the Muslims who claim to be Ashrafs, i.e., trace their ancestry to foreign lineage, none claim racial superiority in India.
If speaking in defence of Hinduism is so offensive to pseudo secularists like you, I shudder to think what would people of your ilk do if one were to actually attack followers of other religions. The intolerance displayed by the so called liberal secularists is astounding. I would say you are one of the mild specimen of this tribe.
The half baked knowledge of Ramayana sported by TJS George shows through. His writing smacks of “turn the other cheek” philosophy. He forgets that neither Rama nor Krishna put up with brute force of opponents. In Aranya Kanda, you can read about how Rama killed 14000 opponents single-handedly. Krishna killed his own maternal uncle, when he became too oppressive.
Websites and blogs provide wonderful opportunity for exchange of views. Replies need not degenerate into calling names thereby “cheapening” the opprotunity to exchange the views.
Gururaj–
No one claims racial superiority? Speak to Punjabis or our own Kodavas.
North Indians have called those of us living in the south many names: Darkie is just one of them.
If you truly mean that name-calling diminishes the value of exchanging ideas, why then do you use words like “drivel,” “pseudo-secularists,” and “halfbaked.”
I have bemoaned the lack of civility in many of the posts rushing to Churumuri. Swalpa sihi, swalpay spicy is OK, aadare ogaru yaake?
PTL – Sir, why don’t you agree with the fact that India is a Hindu country?
PTL – Here is a list.
1. Vegetarian Vs Non-Vegetarian = Veg is superior
2. South Vs North = South Indian more intellectual
3. Fair Vs Dark = Fair is better. Does not matter if from South or North.
4. Dalits like to think of themselves as the Blacks of India = Tell that to Kanshi Ram.
So, stereotypes are as intrinsic to humans as hands and legs.
“pseudo-secular”, “drivel” and “halfbaked” are all fine if they can be proved to be so. If they cannot, then the joke is on the other fellow.
I fully agree with T.J.S. The public is being taken for a big ride by the crooked politicians.
But the public too should wise up to this trick, and demand the netas about
the development commitments(ROTI-KAPDA-MAKAAN). To divert these issues, the so-called netas use these gimmicks.
“If Liberals persist in their habits…Islam will seem very mild compared to what Hindus will make of Hinduism. ”
The second part of the sentence is what I’m scared of. But again, that all-encompassing ‘liberal’ is the culprit according to you.
Great piece by TJS George. Superb!
Vinay – Liberals are not “all-encompassing”. They live in a world of their own creation and insist that that is the truth.
If they had faced reality, we would never have come to such a pass.
So yes. The Liberal is a culprit worse than the Islamist.
–>(TJS George) This the power of vulgar religious politics.
No! This is the power of pseudo-secular media!
And please stop connecting it to Hindutva and BJP, just because some people say so for the sake of votes. If that is the case, then why didn’t you write an article when AR Antulay and their likes (who belong to secular parties) gave such horrible statements! (and the same applies to Churumuri, why didnt it bring to notice any such articles).
–> (Harkol) The beginning will be by telling the BJP/RSS to reform, and get rid of such militant and extreme elements. The way to do that would be to vote against them.
Many a times I wonder how gullible and innocent are Hindu minds who fall easy prey to these pseudo-sickulars.
You talk about Puttur! But you forget to remind yourself what happened, and who incited it. You intelligently try to not think of recent incident in Haveri when Muslims (the so-called pampered minorities) resorted to fire on the day of jatra. And, as usual, for our secular media this was not a news at all.
Harkol, I think you are still on the verge of falling prey to these kind of people. Think on your own, dont go by these media, understand whats happening everywhere in India, analyse properly and make your decisions.
Its true that BJP did not do anything to strengthen its base at the grassroot level, and Yadiyurappa and party in Karnataka lacks PR skills (, and to some extend Yaddi is acting like a hitler in his party). But just these things donot make other parties as pure!
@ “Varun Gandhis will now come in the dozens…and multiples of the same.” “If Liberals persist in their habits….” “Naveen Patnaik will not be able to stop another Kandhamal…” “If not for “pseudo-secularism” VG would not have said these words.”
George W. Bush may have been The White House joker who launched the grammatically disastrous “War on Terror”. But at least his intended target was right in the light of 9/11: terrorism. The “venomous buffoons” here, and the dyslexic jesters dancing to their loony tunes, can’t even decide what their real target is: terrorism or Islamic jihad; liberalism or secularism.
Little wonder, instead of debating the germ of T.J.S. George’s piece, which is the arrogant distortion of bharatiyata by the “venomous buffoons” who are destroying its very essence, the dyslexic jesters are happy to ram (lower case R) their usual racist, communal and incendiary bilge down our throats, while imputing motives by looking at the name of the author.
Simple self-respect should tell us that neither Pramod Mutalik nor Varun Gandhi can claim to represent Hindus, Hindu ethos or Hinduism. Simple common sense should tell us that the virulence that they and others of their ilk convey does not represent the feelings of the lay Hindu.
But no. Self-respect and common sense are at such a premium that the dyslexic jesters have to defending what even the perpetrators may cringe from.
Varun Gandhi, the precocious communalist, himself claims he did not say what is on tape. So why are the dyslexic jesters defending what he says he did not say? And why are the dyslexic jesters threatening more of the same on the basis of what Varun Gandhi says he did not say? Are they mind-readers? Or plain psychos?
Gururajavare:
India is essentially a country that has had liberal ethos for 1000s of years.
There is no religion called Hindu. Hindu at best is a broad cultural system with faith in re-incarnation. This faith includes dwaita, adwaita, charvaka, vaidika, jain and Buddhist philosophies. Charvaka or Lokayata philosophy is so extreme that it is fully materialistic and doesn’t believe in existence of god.
The other thing that had largely defined Hindu cultural system was Caste system, which is now being rightly disbanded. As we evolve as a nation and a culture it is only fair that we take best parts of our faiths, but reject the worst of our faiths.
Not doing so is what leads to taliban mentality.
God, Forgive all these, for they don’t know what they are doing! Amen.
PK – Has anybody denied Varun made that statement?
It’s in the realm of debate to assume he made the statement and argue the point.
It may well be that he did not make it and then this entire TJS piece will be defamatory.
The point, my thick-skulled fellow commenter, is “his statement” has supporters. Lots of them!
Another thing. Anybody who will not hesitate to call a spade a bloody shovel speaks for me.
What would you fellows know about the lay Hindu anyways? Half the time you’re busy calling them idiots and obscurantist brutes who worship sticks and stones.
It really doesn’t matter if the BJP wins or loses. Like I said, Naveen with 100% majority cannot stop another Kandhamal. Of course, provided there is provocation. And one can always count on Liberals to goad our Minorities on.
“terrorism or Islamic jihad; liberalism or secularism” – Yeah…talk to me about the lot! Which is a shade better? :)
***
harkol – I cannot understand you’re stance.
Who is against reform within Hinduism? Why bring up this red herring every time we discuss threats to its existence?
No one can dispute you’re idea of what Hinduism is and I still cannot, for the life of me figure out how Caste is being “disbanded”. Indeed why should it be “disbanded” at all..if at all possible. But that’s another discussion.
Having a Liberal ethos when things are hunky dory is all very well. Not when our civilization faces existential threats.
Palahalli:
Why would that be a red herring. The people who are trying to protect what they call Hinduism (or Hindu civilization) in itself is not a static thing and has changed so radically over the centuries. It is the most dynamic civilization int he world, which has assimilated so many different thoughts and is perfectly capable of assimilating even more.
A civilization is under threat only when it is static and can be broken by another civilization. If so many invaders and rulers couldn’t do it over centuries, then how can some minorities do it? However insane and strident these people may be they can’t harm indus civilizational progress. The real threat to the Indus civilization progress would be if we let our run away brigades to impose a cultural static’ism by putting definitive boundaries on a culture that is boundless!!
Hindu culture/faith has incorporated many different faiths and philosophies. It is the only faith I know which also respects the philosophy like Lokayata’s which is direct opposite of Vedanta. If we have learned to live with those paradoxes, and even incorporate some of those things in our everyday spiritual traditions, then how can some more changes threaten us?
Think about non-vegetarianism. It is largely accepted that Non-Vegetarian food wasn’t shuned by even Brahmins in ancient times. Check the story in mahabharata of Rishi Agastya being served a goat meat, which in reality was a asura by name Vatapi, and Agastya knowing this consumes it and then says “Vatapi Jeernobhava” and digests him. The fact that he accepted a food that was supposed to be goat meat, and many tales where ashwa-medha and go-medha are done, and their meat eaten as prasadam, proves non-vegetarianism being prevalent.
If that lifestyle was changed by the Jain concept of Ahimsa, and became intrinsic to the Hindu way of living, then I am sure Hindu way of living can change and will not remain static. Trying to do so itself is a threat to our way of life!!
I also believe the caste system is being disbanded albeit slowly. It will go the way Sati went in the past century. For a person who has seen Caste discrimination of the worst kind first hand, I know that even in our villages in DK, those days are over. Today in most places (Especially cities) caste doesn’t matter as much as it used to. Within next 2 generations (a generation being about 20 years) we’ll see inter-caste marriages not raising any eyebrows (it already doesn’t in bigger cities).
And within this century, castes won’t matter.
If that is not rapid disbanding – A century and a half to disband a system that has survived thousands of years – then what is?
***
Palahalli:
>Having a Liberal ethos when things are hunky dory is all very well. Not when our civilization faces existential threats.
Are you saying our civilization faces a more existential threat now than in the days of Mugal and British rule?? This country was ruled in parts by invaders for cloase to 12 centuries. They couldn’t convert and destroy the essence of Hindu civilization. It simply morphed like a stubborn virus and thrived.
Why would it be destroyed now, when it is such a strong nation?
The threat to Hindu Civilization is a bogie that is sighted by only people who aren’t confident about their own resilience. If Hindu civilization could successfully assimilate movements like Buddhism and Jainism to retain its essence in last 2000 years, in next 1000 years or so, it can also incorporate good parts of Chirstianity and islam and still thrive as part of a unique Indian culture.
Why fear it?
PK
Your hate-filled and name calling shows how much logic is your friend :)
“terrorism or Islamic jihad;”
Are these different ? If yes, in what way ?
Now, MMS says that minorities have the “first right on the resources”
And VG says anyone with M-name gets the privileges compared to someone with non M-name. Why is MMS ultra-secular and VG a ultra-communal ? When all the other politicians talk of working for their respective vote banks… aren’t they being communal ?
“venomous buffoons” here, and the dyslexic jesters dancing to their loony tunes,”
Drop off the high horse. You are a fine example of how to carry out a rational discussion!!
“Simple self-respect should tell us that neither Pramod Mutalik nor Varun Gandhi can claim to represent Hindus, Hindu ethos or Hinduism. Simple common sense should tell us that the virulence that they and others of their ilk convey does not represent the feelings of the lay Hindu.”
No one says that they are representative of Hindus. But to dismiss their arguments without addressing them is ridiculous.
“Varun Gandhi, the precocious communalist,”
One speech… and he is now a communalist.. But others who have been doing this, for god knows how long, are ultra-seculars and should be emulated !!
Nice try..
Had enough of it. We should protest against the secular policing by media and intellectuals.
“Who is against reform within Hinduism?”
The bloody scumbag rascal Pramod Mutalik, for example.
Back in Mumbai, a industrialist belonging to a minority community (minor than the most favoured minority community MFM of our country who are always supported by the likes of Churmuri, PK etc), unveils the worlds cheapest car the Nano, while the people belonging to MFM community perfect the art of making car bombs. Is there a lesson in this for the liberals and their clientele minority?
Vinay
“The bloody scumbag rascal Pramod Mutalik, for example.”
But the bloody scumbag rascal Pramod Mutalik is not an official representative of Hindus.. Isn’t it ?
Not to pardon what VG said… but there is a limit to media’s continual leg-pulling of hindus… by calling them “jokers”, “communalists”, “taliban-like”.. etc etc. The extreme reactions will stop once this nonsense stops…
harkol – You are confusing the issue again.
I don’t understand what makes you and Vinay assume VG and PM are against reform in Hinduism. Allright, what makes you think Hindutva is against reform when it has had a sturdy record in this field.
The question is of existential threats.
You have yourself admitted that under such threats Hinduism has “..simply morphed like a stubborn virus and thrived.” This can only mean cocooning itself. This is what we see around us today.
Let me address you’re points –
Response to Para 1
– Please note that you are speaking of Hinduism assimilating unto itself. Not changing into something else and becoming out of character. “Caste” was a devise Sanatana Dharma used in order to assimilate different peoples and also achieve harmony without destructive homogeneity.
Response to Para 2
– I don’t know how you can make such an assertion. What does a “threat” mean to you?
A hostile act planned?
A hostile act underway?
A hostile act accomplished(?) in it’s execution.
Do you propose that Hindu society wait till the hostile act is accomplished (?) in the hope that we might then know that our society is indeed capable of averting such defeat as may occur?
It is most dangerous and disingenuous to assume Hinduism cannot be defeated. Anything can be defeated. And we have been defeated not 60 years ago. That defeat was ensured by “some minorities” btw.
Again, what is this “boundless” culture? I am against anything that is “boundless”. Isn’t balance and proportion important? I hope you agree to this at least.
During WW 1 and after the defeat of France people used to speak thus about it. “France was defeated in the ballrooms of Paris”. Not even their famed “Maginot Line” was enough to dissuade German hordes…because people had become weak. So, what is this “culture” that you want to boundlessly promote?
Response to Para 3
You make a terrible mistake while speaking of “incorporation” within Hinduism. “Incorporation” of different paths does not mean I, as a Hindu, follow all these paths as equally relevant to me. I do not. I may not even believe in the other paths. But, I will certainly respect the fact that these other paths are relevant to other people. Those other people will respect my choice of my path. Simple.
Now, these various paths are by and large non-dominating and non-intrusive. Quite unlike the “paths” you have in mind. (Islam & Christianity). Where is the scope of Islam and less Christianity, accepting this kind of status? They will really have to cease being themselves in order to do this.
Response to Para 4
I think I’ve already made known that I eat beef amongst other meats :) I’m still very much an Arvelu Niyogi Brahmin and a Hindu. Like me, there are many Brahmin communities that still, as a matter of course, consume meat.
But you’re point is?
Response to Para 5
Not making any sense. Hindus change and always have. We are talking about “some minorities” that don’t..and never really have.
Response to Para 6
On Caste, you make the mistake most well meaning folks do. For so long have you been believing in the evil of Caste that anything good emanating from it becomes a product of “non-Caste” and even “anti-Caste”. So, the well deserved absence of Caste discrimination, to you, is absence of Caste itself. If harkol stops posting tomorrow, harkol does not exist :)
How can you forget that inter-Caste marraiges gave rise to more Castes. Inter-Caste marraiges will reduce wrongful discrimination but not make Caste irrelevant. It’s complexion will change…like it always has..but it will go on.
Response to extended Para 7
Not really. But we face a real threat nevertheless. Muslims could not convert wholly because they also could not subjugate wholly. Apart from society taking it’s own measures…Hindus also opposed militarily. Vajayanagara and Shivaji to illustrate. The bigger point is that Hindus recognized the threat. Their leadership recognized it. Something our Liberal establishment stubbornly refuses to do. That is what makes our system weak and not strong as you claim.
Response to extended Para 8
Utter rot, sorry to say. If Hindus assimilate “good parts” (such as?)from Islam and Christianity, we remain Hindu. My wife goes to Church every Thursday…she remains a devout Hindu. That is not the question here. Hindus are not the issue. The issue is the non-assimilable nature of Muslims via Islam and Christians via Christianity (to a lesser extent). Therein lies the threat and it is foolish to downgrade it and give it a bogie status.
@ Palahalli:
I do identify myself with your disillusion with the way minority appeasement has led to an unprecedented divide in India. I stand firmly against display of favouritism towards anybody, minority or otherwise. The Nehru dynasty steeped us into unparalleled lows in our civilisational history by adopting a contorted version of socialism (Not that socialism in its pristine form is any good). It took an individual outside the dynasty, after 50 long years to free India from the clutches of Nehru-Gandhi imposed socialism. And today when we are at a finer economic state, we have the problem of minority appeasement and to counter it we have developed the Hindutva protectionist brigade.
The reason I wrote this post was, when I read your lines about resurrection of hindutva warriors as long as the liberals are around, I was deeply disturbed. I have loved my civilization, my history, my culture and all this more than I can portray it to be but the notion of an anarchic outrage is difficult to digest. I think the root of the problem lies in the politicians who have played the favouritism card for so long. Why don’t these Hindutva brigade attack these people who are primarily responsible? Why the helpless common man? I don’t care if he is a muslim or a christian. I have my differences of opinion with people of the book. But than it stops there. Why take it any further with the common man when the fuel that aids their notoriety are the politicians?
For the liberal bashing that you, Gururaj and Tatagath indulge in, I have no quelms in accepting that I am a liberal. Liberalism is a state of mind, it’s not the imposition of ones ideas and values upon others. But at the same time, all those claiming to be liberals would do well to understand that the problem of minority appeasement is not the premise of liberalism rather there is a deep rooted political reason, and this political ideology is essentially one which wants to dictate rather than free.
I am stiil shocked by what you have said. In my limited capacity I can only hope that such incidents do not become a part of our history.
“Nahi Jnanena sadrisham pavithramiha vidhyathe”
Dear Harkol,
“There is no religion called Hindu. Hindu at best is a broad cultural system ….”.
This is how, marxists deny that there is a religion called Hinduism at all. Focusing more on the diversity within Hinduism, attempting to give separate identity to each sub-sect and telling them that they are better than the whole. This is how, marxists have been dismembering Hindu society for close to sixty years now, thanks to Nehru and his secularism.
The view stems from comparison with monotheistic religions and their “My godism”. My book, my prophet, my God. Merely because Hinduism is polytheistic, and accommodates highly diverse beliefs starting with Advaita to Charvaka, it does not cease to be a single religion. In fact, these features are found pagan religions, which thanks to Christianity, have almost disappeared from Europe. This feature is also found in pre-islamic Arab paganism. History of civilization has shown that Polytheists are far more tolerant than monotheists.
For that matter, communism is another monotheistic religion with St.Marx and St.Engles as the founding prophets, and dialectical materialism as its presiding deity. It is little wonder that marxist view of Hinduism is to sub-divide and dismember it into its individual components rather than view it holistically as a single but complex system of belief.
I do agree with the later part of your statement: Hinduism is indeed a cultural system. That quality imparted to civilizations comes from sound philosophical foundations.
Kanchan Gupta in the Pioneer.
http://www.dailypioneer.com/164149/Varun-was-harsh-but-so-is-truth.html
Prashanth Bhat –
1. Firstly, appeasement of Muslims is not new.
2. Secondly, Hindutva, in various forms, has always existed.
3. Blaming politicians is an excuse. Politicians will buy off a bazaar that sells more and cheap. Cut the supply (Transacting Instrument – Liberalism) and the customer will regain health.
4. Liberalism has changed its meaning considerably. Today, one cannot be called a Liberal without at the same time paying obeisance to Secularism and Multi-Culturalism with its underlined rule of **Complete Equality and Non-Discrimination** coupled with Politically Correct blackmail. Am I wrong?
You’re warning to Liberals (There is no “claim” but an “assertion”) is useless unless Liberals are prepared to address Liberal off-shoots as mentioned above. I’m certain they won’t.
Please don’t be shocked. I’m only talking about how things are and how they will become.
And as far as I know, Tatagatha is a person who pines for “true’ Secularism. (Whatever that may mean). He is constantly about “Pseudo-Secularism” etc etc…which I oppose. I see no difference. Else, I have great respect for him.
Gururaj tells it like it is.
Sandesh:
“But the bloody scumbag rascal Pramod Mutalik is not an official representative of Hindus.. Isn’t it ?”
Hindus have no official representative, do we? There are people who support him and his actions. Anyhow as long as we agree that he is a scumbag rascal, we’re on the same page…
“Not to pardon what VG said… but there is a limit to media’s continual leg-pulling of hindus… by calling them “jokers”, “communalists”, “taliban-like”.. etc etc. The extreme reactions will stop once this nonsense stops…”
No need to blame the media more than necessary. No one called Hindus “communal”. If the media calls the BJP or RSS communal, that does not mean they are calling all Hindus the same. If you see it that way, then you are guilty of considering the BJP as a representative of Hindus, and this, I will NOT have. Yes, they went overboard on this ‘Hindu terror’ stuff. One swallow does not make a summer. All the same we need to be careful, lest scumbag rascals like Pramod Mutalik get powerful enough to give the term ‘Hindu terrorist’ legitimacy!! Think about it. Should we not nip these in the bud?
Vinay…not so fast buddy!
The MSMedia dares not call Muslim organizations communal for fear that it will tarnish Muslims in general. It’s a fact. They don’t do it.
Viewed from this logic, they are calling Hindus in general Communal, when they label Hindu organizations as such.
Not that I have any issue with being called “Communal”.
plz post this in
http://www.Wikipedia.org
Vinay
Of course. There can be no two opinions that Muthalik-type goons are anything but scumbags. I am in no way denying or even supporting a bit of what the rascal has done. But I am not so sure of why the media is quick to jump to club entire hindus for the deeds of one/two people/groups. The way the media reports (or is it manipulates?) news is what irks me. Will the media ever, ever , EVER think of calling “muslim jokers chased away Tasleema” or something similar to it ? Will the media ever, ever, EVER say “christian jokers raping nuns” or something similar to it ? (Hope churumuri allows my comment…and not censure this.)
It is very easy to get away saying nasty things about hindus in India. Somehow we are made to apologize for anything that is not in favor with Muslims and christians. This is fueling negative feelings among hindus and it is a matter of time before everything comes out in a hard way. BJP and RSS are only en cashing these sentiments.
“If the media calls the BJP or RSS communal, that does not mean they are calling all Hindus the same. ”
Not talking about BJP and RSS. Take the Udupi Charlie Chaplin case. Why was the title as “hindu joker”…Does it not offend your hindu sensibilities ? They could have as well labeled the persons involved as jokers. Why bring in their religion to it ? Will the media show same zeal in calling the muslims jokers who refuse to sing Vande Mataram ?
Nipping muthalik type goons is also a responsibility of the media. They should excercise constraint in giving undue publicity to these goons. I am all for not only nipping these rascals in the bud, but also to put them behind jail bars asap.
***
Pal
“Not that I have any issue with being called “Communal”.”
Sadly, this is what the hindus are feeling gradually. They are now going defensive in saying that “yeah, the media thinks we are communal. So be it. To hell with them. We’re communal. So what ?”….
No Sandesh. I don’t view the term “Communal” negatively. I hope we don’t allow these Liberal rouges to control our language too. They have done untold damage already.
Any Community minded person would be Communal. If I, as a Hindu, will be sensitive toward Hindu interests, I would be a Communal Hindu. That’s a positive.
If you’re following the media; they have already labeled the anti-statue protesters as BJP/RSS workers. But then, even with this incident, I do not find anything wrong with opposing a statue in front of a Temple or any place that does not suite its presence. The local opinion should be sovereign in so far as things like these are concerned.
Some idiot of a producer wants his stupid statue and Hindus become jokers!
Palahalli:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/index
Just click this link and let me know your score, will you? It assesses your political leanings along two axes – economic and social.
Economic leanings form the X-axis going from collectivism (Pol-pot) to neo-liberalism (Friedman). Social leanings go from Libertarian to Authoritarianism.
Pala:
Saw your many posts here. I am not sure you understood my angst rightly.
While I feel Minority appeasement is a problem, and there is a section of minorities, who may feel more part of the world-wide ummah, only answerable to the teachings of a prophet or their religious leaders. They are abhor-able and are blinded by faith over rationality.
But, I do not believe in Hindu’s reacting in violent and strident manner. All my life I’ve voted for BJP. Have been a liberal rightist. I believe in Individual freedom, Liberties, Power of Fundamental human rights over to that of the right’s of the state. But, I also believe in Equality, hate the fractured civil laws of this country.
However, Majority community has the power to vote in a govt. (may be BJP) to bring in common civil code and achieve some of these goals. But, that is the only right way to do it. Not threatening to roughshod over anyone who opposes hinduism (As VG did). And certainly not going and beating up anyone (let alone women) for not following your ideology (Like PM did).
They have very narrow view of Hinduism. I am proud to be a Hindu, and I too, like you are not a dogmatic Hindu-Brahmin – I eat meat, don’t perform any rituals, but I like my faith as it lets me be.
What I am seeing is an attempt to force others to conform. That is bullshit, and that is why I won’t vote BJP this time. They deserve to be told where to draw the line.
Agree completely with harkol. Agree to every point. If only Palahalli will understand this instead of typing a long and verbose paragraph of text twisting, turning and manipulating facts all along!!!
harkol – Please explain the following to me.
1. What do you mean by “blinded by faith over rationality”? This accusation is leveled against all believers across all religions. Typical Secular view of the religious minded folks.
2. You also say you’re a Liberal Rightist. I’ll make a few assumptions.
a. As a Liberal, you believe in various cultures existing together.
b. You want to accord Equal Rights to all these cultures because you also believe they are Equally Good. Therefore, even if there is cause to differentiate, you will not because how can a Liberal differentiate when he knows all are equally good?
When all cultures are equally good, how can you then refuse Muslims their right to Shar’ia? I felt it would be more consistent for you to say, “since Shar’ia is good and since all cultures are equally good, we should have Shar’ia for all cultures. But then you will have to contend with Hindus saying the Hindu Code is equally good too.
All very messy and slippery.
But then, you have a solution in the Uniform Civil Code. It’s a strange animal that defies definition. But assuming in you’re place; I would say you want a Secular Code as UCC.
Conclusion – Because, due to the Liberal logic of equal good, you will not admit that the Hindu Code is superior to the Shar’ia, you will prefer everybody to “dumb down” to a Secular law which you have still to prove, is better than the Hindu Code or for that matter, the Shar’ia.
c. You speak of the Majority “Community” helping you bring in the UCC. Actually, I am a bit surprised that you still see worth in Hindus remaining a Majority :) Be that as it may…have you ever wondered why Hindus should root for something you folks have not even bothered to bring to academic light? If it is, as my previous assumption goes, Secular Law devoid of roots in Hindu history and tradition, why should Hindus support it? I certainly don’t see the Muslim accepting it.
Again, I notice you are really not averse to “forcing” Muslims to adapt to a Secular Law via the majority Hindu vote. That’s called manipulating Hindus and trapping Muslims.
d. You speak of VG and PM as if they were in a debate on the UCC. They were not. But then, you’re assumption is that a Secular Law will provide the magic cure for our “Communal” ills.
You assume that my ideology involves beating up women. – Wrong assumption. Try again.
You assume, correctly, that VG spoke against people who oppose Hindus (not Hinduism, as you claim even though that may be true too) – I support VG totally, because Hindus will not wait till the Liberal “Rightist” manipulates some scheme which may not work.
e. I did not know they (PM & VG) were airing a “view” of Hinduism as far as the incidences are concerned. PM may have come close to pushing such a “view” and no one can stop him from having one. He was wrong to allow Rama Sena to beat up people and this I have said so clearly.
Worse still was for the Liberal tribe to indulge him. But I don’t see you mad at them at all. (Maybe I’m wrong here)
You make a mistake assuming me to be some kind of a Lefty Brahmin. I am not at all against rituals and being Vegetarian. But I like to make sure that folks who like rituals and are Vegetarians are not labeled “dogmatic” for the fact.
f. Is it not strange that a Liberal who wants to manipulate a major legal change accuses Hindu Conservatives of forcing others to conform? Btw, Hindus do not want to force “others to conform” if you’ve noticed. They want to be free to live their lives per their traditions.
It is the Secular-Liberals who want others to conform to their ideology and will rubbish all non-conformists.
(Posted with due apologies to Vinay.) But harkol, please read through and think through.
Palahalli:
1. The premise of faith itself is that you have an unquestioning belief. Rationality isn’t a virtue of faith. That’s why I feel organized religions or Doctrines are bad (CPM is a good example of it). They loose sense of logic indoctrinated by their unquestioning belief (Faith). Having said that, I like Hinduism (The culture that developed around the Sindhu river and thrived in the country called Bharat) because it isn’t a religion/faith.
2. Your presumption is wrong. Being secular doesn’t mean one believes and respects all religions! It is an Indian abberation of the meaning of the concept of Secularism!!
I don’t care what your religion is, and I still respect your rights under the law of the land. It doesn’t mean I accept your beliefs or respect it. I don’t need to. But, I won’t go hitting people who don’t agree with me, nor will I support a party that engages in gross violation of individual liberty.
I am indifferent (agnostic) to all the religions and faiths. I think that should also be the case from the perspective of how the law treats them. The law should be based on Rationality and Logic, with universally accepted civil & Human rights of equality before law, with some allowances made for private faith as long as it doesn’t come into public domain. i.e. Your faith is fine as long as it doesn’t impinge on another’s right.
I am a rightist from the perspective that I am the opposite of leftist economic beliefs. I think like a capitalist, support market economy. But, I am a liberal in matters of faith (Not a conservative rightist).
Sharia??? Supporting Sharia would be equivalent to supporting the Hindu Law as it exists!! I am against both! For example, I don’t see reason in Hindu law why no absolute right to land passes on to next generation thru inheritance. This has created many complication in our property ownership, and should be modified. In fact, Hindu law has been reformed to a good degree to remove injustice to women in property matters. But, it still needs further reforms. Moving to UCC would be an ideal way to do that.
Doing rational law isn’t complex – The premise that all people are equal is the only principle that governs the law. So, irrespective of caste, belief or gender, everyone gets same rights. Why is it dumbing down of the law? In fact it is just simplification of the law.
If men can’t be forced to bear children (assuming science makes that possible), women can’t be too (just because nature makes it possible). So, abortion should be legal to the point where another life can be independently supported.
Institution of marriage shouldn’t be the only way people can get into a life-long contract. Not because I disrespect Marriage (I am happily married and love the institution), but because I understand other’s may have other needs.
etc. etc.
3. Anyway, being a liberal is about being able to accept the world isn’t a perfect place and I won’t go about hitting someone because he believes differently. Anyone who does that (or support that) go against my principles and instantly loose my support.
I never liked Congress’s socialist economic agenda. Neither its Minority appeasement to the extent of harming Indian civil code. I didn’t like its disregard for Constiutional Propriety (Emergency being an example) and also its family centric nature. It has a lot to answer for in Sikh killings (it did apologize for it), where it still tries to shield some individuals.
But, then, I don’t like BJP’s conservative religious agenda either. I could live with that as long as they were principally opposed to supporting and protecting groups who go around killing/hitting people.
AB Vajpayee was such leader – who opposed Babri, Gujarat riots etc. and always opposed radical forces to best of his ability. He deserved my support. To a great extent he drew a line in the sand against people like PM and managed BJP to be a right-centrist party, with an attractive economic agenda.
But, now that he isn’t there, BJP seems to be taken over by people who aren’t capable of moderation. I feel BJP needs to reform. :-(
All this is not very difficult to understand. Dogmatic are people who refuse to change their opinions and votes. I am not one of them. I will vote and support anyone whom I feel are serving the best interests (or are least worst) at a given time. If see BJP has modified its stance of tacitly supporting violent forces like Pragya/Purohit and PM, that party would be more to my liking than Congress.
IAC, I let this matter rest, cause if I am not making my points clear with such lengthy posts, it is unlikely I can do it at all.
“Venomous buffoons” is a mixed metaphor! Only snakes, scorpions etc are venomous, not buffoons. Same here. Hindu protagonists merely speak in defence of Hinduism and Hindu ethos. Others do not waste words speaking. They act. Who should deserve more condemnation? The windbags, or the persons who Act violently? There is lot of verborrhoea going on here.
harkol – I don’t want to upset Gururaj more than he is already, so will keep my responses short :)
Let’s take the issue of faith.
You say you’re against faith over rationality. Good.
You must have seen that video where the middle aged man with no limbs, has become an inspirational teacher. Would you say it would have been rational for his parents to have had him euthanized at child birth?
Again, would you say that it was his faith in something that got him to where he got? Given his circumstances, would it not have been rational for him to opt for suicide as his right to take his own life because his rational thinking sees an impossibility staring him in the face?
Are you against faith or the rational manipulation of the power of people’s faith in their Gods and its logical consequences?
You see, I found Constantine and Mohammed very rational and logical in whatever they did in order to achieve their goals.
Let me know and then we can move to the next.
Palahalli – Firstly, in your example – its rational logic which gave the strength and not faith. Faith is just the cloak; what really holds the handicapped person is inspiration from other people like him. Its the meme which makes the person to give credit to faith. Faith and religions will get thinner as we understand nature through science more and more.
Abhi – If you watched that video, you will observe that he was born without limbs. – No whole hands and legs.
This means his parents accepted their baby the way he was. I don’t know of another case similar, that would have rationally persuaded his parents to pin future hope on such a seemingly (now) hopeless case. Even if there were any, would that in itself be enough? Do two human beings have the same capacities?
I cannot understand what amount of “rational logic” can give a human being, without whole hands and legs, the will to not just survive but also excel.
You can help me by impersonating his thought process. What do you think he could be saying to himself in the rational and logical way?
He does not have to come across same exact another case to feel empathy and gain motivation; there are plenty of inspirations to leave other than god. Infact, if at all he believes in god, he should be totally pissed off with him for taking away his limbs.
Even if he gets consolation from faith, that is false and deceiving. There are better humanist philosophies to overcome difficulties.
I agree that it is difficult to tell someone who has spent his life believing in god(s) that its all fake and you wasted your time. But we have to raise the conciousness at some point and break the insulation that religion/faith has enjoyed thr’ evolutionary reasons.
Abhi – I think you would like anything or anybody as inspiration, except God :)
That’s not a very rational position, is it?
I think its irrational to base your life on something/someone for which there is no evidence whatsoever. It is not just useless, but also dangerous and decremental to human growth.
Well Abhi, do you have evidence for you’re assertion?
Absence of evidence is the evidence of absence. When you claim there is something, onus is on you to give the evidence.
Abhi – When according to you, science has all the answers and based on that premise you deny the existence of God, then it is only fair to ask…where is the evidence.
I myself have never claimed to have seen God. But you seem to assert; there is certainly no God.
So, please provide evidence for you’re assertion.
“Absence of evidence is the evidence of absence” – This is an astoundingly unscientific statement!
For ages man believed he was the center of the universe and there was nothing but the Earth. For ages man believed there was no land but his. All this because he had not yet known otherwise.
Yet per you’re stated logic, early man must have been right.
Science never makes absolute statements; it always talks in probablities. You can not say with “certainity” that you and I exist. May be its just an illusion. Science says there is very less probability of you and I not existing. And there is very less probablity that god exists.
Abhi – This is what you said a while back;
“I think its irrational to base your life on something/someone for which there is no evidence whatsoever.”
And now you say this;
“And there is very less probablity that god exists.”
Do you see the difference I’m seeing?
“Science never makes absolute statements” – You’re former statement is an example of one.
Let us get things clear. First, there is no evidence whatsoever that god exists (let me know if you have any; you will probably get next nobel).
Second, science is not arrogant like religion to make absolute statements and simplistic moral definitions. As you pointed out, even the complete absence of evidence does not “COMPLETELY” rule out the existence of somethinig. It talks in probabilities. Just like it is highly probable that you and I exist, it is reasonable to say – most probably (99.999….%) there is no god. It makes little sense to lead your life based on it, just as we assume that we all exist.
Hmm….99.999….%. How did you arrive at that figure?
And why leave out the remainder? Why not the whole 100%?
If not science at least I see you making an arrogant assertion that God does not exist (whatsoever) just because there is no evidence, as you would recognize it, presented yet.
I’m sure you don’t even know what to look for as in “evidence”. I certainly don’t.
But I know that God exists as surely as this Universe exists in all its known and unknown dimensions.
You must also be careful when you speak of religions making absolute statements about God. There are certainly religions that have a very “Earthy” view of God. There are some that don’t. And I’m not arrogant enough to say their perception of God is wrong. It just works for them.
If you really possessed a scientific temperament, you would not stop at 99.999….%, but try to be 100% certain.
Let’s talk when you get there.
Really t.j.s. George is a unknown frog.he is looking for name & publicity.
Why no one is bothered about Jagadish Tytler and Sajjan Kumar who massacred hundreds of innocent Sikh community members and have been eveding punishment and enjoying power and position for nearly three decades.
Mr. George, talk something different and look around and enhance the region of your vision.
TS George is a product of the venomous xtian missionaries of Uk & USA who have used this useless idiot to spew out verbal diarrhoea against the very Hindus who have given him a safe sanctuary from Mother Bharat soil so that he can repay them with such treachery..its normal you ungrateful convert