E.R. RAMACHANDRAN writes: How did our mothers, grandmothers and great-grandmothers keep themselves fit and in shape back in the good old days?
Did they have enough exercise as per modern fitness standards?
Did they go to a slimming centre then, an earlier version of Talwalkar‘s or VLCC ( ‘Vait Loss Coaching Class’ as Vanada Luthra‘s Curls and Curves has come to be called) where they did 25 dumbells for warm-up and then spent 20 minutes on a stepper/ stair-climber before hopping on a Recumbent Bike to do 100 pedals under watchful eyes of a “personal trainer”?
Were they ever advised to consume only measured calories each day: 1,000 for breakfast, 1,500 for lunch, and 800 for dinner, checking their weights in between?
These questions are rhetorical, of course, because back then, home itself was a major slimming centre though nobody was there to count how many sit-ups Ajji did. She got up early in the morning to sweep the floor, wash the frontage with cow dung, and draw a nice little rangoli with akki hittu while humming ‘Bhagyaada Lakshmi baaramma….’
Since most families had their own cattle, she would also wash, feed and milk them before sending them out for grazing.
Like Ashta Lakshmi, Ajji notionally had eight pairs of hands attending to everything from sweeping and wiping the floors (gudisodu-sarisodu) to cooking for a joint family of at least a dozen. Ingredients like menasina pudi, saarina pudi, huli pudi, and chutney pudi, and accoutrements like pickles, pappad and sandige were all prepared at home to mouth-watering standards.
She sat on her haunches when she washed the house, each time squatting and moving on her toes.
What about the “weights” which would tone up her arms and wrists? True, she didn’t have weights which Aishwarya Rai or Angelina Jolie now use, but she coolly drew water from a 100 ft well probably 50 times a day for drinking, cooking, washing, and for watering the plants and feeding the cattle.
Make that 100 times a day if there were visitors from the next village or if the family cow Ganga was delivering a calf during Navarathri when Ajja’s younger brother’s family came visiting.
What about the equipment in her “gymnasium”?
Kitchen was her gym. Since every ingredient had to be prepared at home, she had Jaladi and Vandhri for sieving; Oralu Kallu for grinding all types of chutney. Machchu for breaking and Thuriyo Mane for grating coconut; Beeso Kallu to powder wet grains. Rice thus ground became fine powder for excellent dose or akki rotti with pudina chutney.
What did Ajji do to keep her weight in control? She didn’t have a fancy ‘tummy toner’ vibrator or a belt which claims can ‘reduce a waistline without moving an inch even while eating whatever one liked’. How did she manage?
She used Onake long before onake Obavva came on the scene to fight intruders. Pounding paddy on a mortar and pestle at a brisk pace of 40 to 50 strokes per minute for around ten minutes at a stretch, with a half-a-minute break to wipe the sweat from her forehead seemed to do wonders for her weight.
Further, there was kudugolu to make majjige and benne at home. Not only did it help tone her forearms but also made sure there was home-made ghee to go with the rave idli and kotthambari chutney.
Since Ajji didn’t have the pleasure of a radio or TV, she exercised her vocal chords to get the children to sleep.
Half way through ‘Ramanama payasakke, Krisnhanama sakkare’ of Purandara Dasaru in raga Ananda Bhairavi would make them drowsy and by the time she was humming slowly ‘Aananda, aananda vembo thegu bandhihudo… Namma Purandaravithalana Neneyiro…,’ the children would be fast asleep.
Sleep to her was when the wick of the lamp was lowered for the day after everybody had gone to sleep and after she had made all preparations for the next day which was only four to five hours away.
Was Ajji required to walk on a treadmill for half-an-hour everyday so her abdomen remained flat as recommended by health pundits?
After her family was fed and the house had been spruced up, in the evening she would take a walk to Rama Mandira for a harikatha kalakshepa by Venkoba Dasaru or visit Krishna temple for a bhajane during Gokulashtami or drop everything at hand and sprint at midnight to friend Tunga’s grandchild down with serious case of dysentery.
There she would prepare and administer her own naati medicine and stay there till the first feed stabilized and return home at daybreak after seeing the return of faint smile on the child’s lips.
Tomorrow was another day.
Great! But today, we need to control our diet and do some light exercises because working women do not have the time or energy after a day’s work. Even for the homemakers it is impractical to follow what their grand mothers did!
It is just not the disguised exercises but the unpolluted and unadulterated world, the secret of our grand mothers health!
Nice post. Rekindled childhood memories. How I miss those days. Those were the golden black and white days when as kids we used visit tata, ajji and avva during vacations and on some special occasions.
ER , you paint a vivid picture of a Karnataka village. Nice prose. I’m sure that still is the case in some rural areas ; maybe the oil-wick is replaced with a single 25w bulb and an old TV in some corner. But villages of today have changed tremendously as well ; when there’s a better, easier way to get the work done, people do adopt it…
While “…reduce a waistline without moving an inch even while eating whatever ..” is a stupid regimen that will not yield results, your article goes a tad far in belittling the need in today’s world for exercise. The reality is , we are where we are. If anything we are moving toward more comfort. I’m sure no one in a metro reading this blog (read comfort ; coz it’s not the reading beneath a street light my grandfather did..) will get back to the routine you mention. Given that, it is essential to come up with a sensible regimen to keep oneself fit. If it means walks in the park (not the 30 minutes in Lalbagh that ends with 1 hour in MTR), jogging, gym or whatever works, why is it bad ?
There’s no substitute for hard work(or workout), but the work does not have to be what your granny did. I love my granny, but unlike my granny, my sister does get 2 kids to school by 7.30 AM before she heads to work and then once back from work, it’s the ICSE homeworks and dinner preparation. So to say my granny was better, is to insult the present day women who are moving shoulder to shoulder with men — something that did not happen back then ? Progress comes with it’s side effects. Some good, some bad — 8-5 shifts are now 8 – 11 pm ; Rs.25 per month school fees are now Rs.2000 ; my granny had 10 kids, we 2 and on and on..
VLCC or Gold Gym, when used sensibly is still good..
PS : Why are we talking of just women here ? Men of today are more of couch potatoes than their ajjas ? I’m sure a majority of us could use a walk than follow churumuri on twitter ? Or a helping hand in the kitchen ?
what are you trying to say? in comparison i can list a number of things ajja did that you dont do now. stop this meanigless posts.
far too many people live in the past.
That ajji was not allowed to go to school, not allowed freedom to chose her life partner, did not have a say in how many children she should give birth to, not allowed any financial freedom, was not allowed to work outside, nor go anywhere she wished to, not even to meet her mother, did not have a say in her childrens’ life……………..
nobody wants to be in her shoes now. NEVER AGAIN.
Madhu , you do make excellent points and my reaction was the same as yours.
Ramachandran avara, wake up and smell the exhaust fumes. Life in the city has vastly changed . However the lifestyle you describe is still the norm in many villages.
Ajji doesn’t have to take the company bus at 6 am or have a 2 hr commute. Ajji only had to worry about saving 6 annas to buy a new blouse piece and whether her man would bring her some mallige.
It is nice to have romantic view of a rustic life. Have you ever drawn well water? The rough rope cuts into your skin when the kodapana is drawn up. Try waking up at 4 am to start a fire in the cold and dark so the water is piping hot for yejemanru’s bath at 7.
And don’t forget to use the fields for ablutions in the cover of darkness. Last call, ladies — the next time you will get to relieve your self is after dusk.
Jokers who admire village life seem to have a ton of women folk as support staff and don’t even know the ground realities. Life is simple but it is also hard! And that is the case for villages AND cites. One is not superior to the other and any one who thinks so is a moron.
Agree very much with the post script to Madhu Rao’s comment. Also our ajji’s and to a large extent our ammas also lived (and continue to live) a life where they sacrifice so much for our sake and our father’s sake.
This post, while blindly glorifying the past, seems to ignore this aspect of life in those times. I would rather that the woman who will become my wife enjoy the same level of comfort as me (though it might mean some extra effort on my part) than toil away unacknowledged. Indeed ever since I have been of thinking age I have always tried my best to help out my ajji and amma as well.
Villageaa!? as you say, eega yelloo illa but munche it could be anywhere, even in cities!
That should be Vandana Luthra.
Madhu Rao, Putti, Subbulakshmi
Excellent points. Wholeheartedly agree with them all. While I wish I had that lifestyle the times have changed enormously and what was true those days isn’t true anymore.
In fact, I can argue that womenfolk (esp. those who work) do much more physical labor than our Ajjis. They have to work both at home (where most of the men do not lend a helping hand ) and at office.
There should be no comparison of the two generations, however nostalgic you may feel.
Good to read and know. But, whats the point!!!
ಇದೆಲ್ಲ ಒಳ್ಳೆ “ಅಜ್ಜಿ ಕಥೆ”!!!
Made intersting reading but couldnt you have used ‘ happla’ instead of pappad!
Also ajji didnt have any ooportunity to whinge and complain as much as we do now!
I hope the point of this essay is to talk about a day in the life of ajji. Like several others pointed out, our nostalgia for ajji’s times should not be used to run down the lifestyle of today’s woman. Working women whether rural or urban often have the rough end of the stick compared to their male counterparts as they have to do the work of feeding and nurturing their families in addition to being breadwinners. Therefore one should not begrudge any time a woman takes for herself, be it for exercise or for watching TV.
Women earlier felt empowered in their own way. Of course the Man was the deciding factor..but he listened to his wife’s counsel much more than a man would today.
Our parents…the sons and daughters of their parents..provided us with the future we have today. That’s the result.
I think, with all our humbug about unlimited rights and equality…it will be a miracle if we leave behind a sane generation, let alone a healthy one.
“Women earlier felt empowered in their own way. Of course the Man was the deciding factor..”
Absolutely one hundred percent BS kanri… don’t you even see the irony of the statement here ??
Women have fought very hard to claim their deserved rights.. Across the globe. Please don’t insult them by saying that the man “listened” to their counsel and therefore women felt “empowered” back then!
Sandesh – I think I’m right by giving this “women’s slavery” a very wide birth. That’s the original BS.
I also feel you’re goal or desire to see “equality” blinds you to obvious facts and that is; a woman has her strengths and weaknesses that are different from a man’s. Else there is no reason to think that a woman was not empowered in traditional society. The idea was to complement each other.
I don’t understand why the very mention of “counsel” or “listened” is so insulting to women? But first of all, let me resist this propaganda that all women have bought into the Libber’s argument. Second of all I hold the cohesion of the Family to be of prime importance if we are to have any kind of stable society.
I know this is not the Libber’s priority and maybe that’s why they are so resistant to a woman and man being able to understand each other’s worth rather than fight for primacy.
They look at such an arrangement as the surrender of the woman!
I ask you, do you not see the immense danger you place women in when you agree with their complete “equality” with the male? After this, why the hell should any male treat a woman with any kind of deference?? What kind of a mentality will that give rise to? Are you prepared to accept it’s consequences?
Thanks for the lovely post..i enjoyed reading it. Reminded me of my ajji and my mother.
PH did you mean you were giving a wide ‘ berth’ or was it simply a pun on the parturitive aspect of us women:)
Gaby…good catch! I meant “berth”.
Whoever heard of using a “Kudugolu” (sickle) to make Majjige and Benne at home :)…should it not be “Kadegolu” using Kedyuvudu.
goobe thara iddira Palahalli avre ! Don’t put a woman on a pedestal. Just treat her as a fellow human.
If a woman wants to make sandige for the rest of her life, she is welcome to it. Please make some for me also, meddam!! But to think all women should do the samethings to be considered “aadarsha naari” or “pativratay” is a bit much.
We all should have the choice , that is all that matters. While I don’t ever want to join and fight in an army, that does not make all women sissies or ‘weak’ . Women when given equal opportunities, are not forced to take them. We all are different and unique.
Everytime you denounce a progressive ideology, you are becoming like a mullah who says 10 yr old girls should get married and serve their 50 yr old husbands.
It takes a real man to respect a woman as his equal. What are you so afraid of ?
Agree with Sandesh. It is insulting to argue women of yesterday were empowered as their husbands listened to them (and what % of these lucky souls are we talking of ? ).
If you toe that line, what stops us from using the same token(not empowered in traditional society ‘because’ of a reason) to justify slavery , racism, casteism et al ? Each of these evils had a strength dominating a perceived weakness (physical/ financial/ moral/ social)..
Cohesion in a family ; counsel between family members (irrespective of the elder,younger,male,female barrier) does not have to run counter to a woman’s rights. I’m sure treating a woman as an equal will strenghten cohesion and counsel in the family than making her an ‘aatakke untu lekakke illa’.
Stupidity is not sexist ; It permeates both sexes equally. If people put themselves in a situation where they will be harmed, it’s themselves to blame. The perceived need to protect women by not extending equality is such a farce. All men are not created equal ? Why not create stratas of men who need help as well ? some are puny, some are cowards, some dimwitted …
putti – On a pedestal?? Just now I was being accused of enslaving the female species! :)
Just shows how confusing this argument of the Libber can become.
Who spoke about making sandige all her life? Who spoke of Adarasha nari and pativrate? But I’m not saying these are bad values per se. You imply it with your fashionable fad-ad.
This argument about the army shows your talking through your hat! A woman joining or not joining the army has nothing to do with being brave. It has everything to do with her capacity to take physical hardship. In most armies around the world, there are more women in non-combat duties than combat. You should read up on this topic, it’s interesting. Recently, the US army started an in-house crèche for it’s female mother-soldiers. Makes you not think of it as a fighting force at all. What happens to the babies when moms leave for Iraq?
You say, “We all are different and unique”. I’m sure you did not even mean it because your entire argument is shot by it!
“Everytime you denounce a progressive ideology…blah blah” – Sorry to be harsh but this line has told me you have nothing more worthy to justify your stance.
What is this “equality with men” that you crave? Who is above and who is below? This argument is about as meaningful as asking men to become women because somebody thinks women are better.
Madhu Rao – I’m much surprised. Can you attest to a latter %age? Allright let me ask you this. If you thought early (grandma types) woman was a slave, then what %age was enslaved?
“slavery , racism, casteism” – Firstly you read my post wrong. I was talking about man and woman complementing each other in their respective roles. If you want to superimpose the sacred (Oops, I uttered a bad word) relationship between husband and wife onto “slavery , racism, casteism”..should I have more to say to you?
Gawd! This equality bug bites hard and is contagious too! It’s almost as if it’s the Last Word! Pray define equality between the sexes to me. (Sexes because we are on this topic)
Your last para must take the veritable cake Shri Rao!
The need to protect women is not perceived, it is much wanted and desired and required! And you are right about all men not being equal too! Will you not help a weak man who is being bullied?? Or will you let him be *like you must if you truly believe in equality* because you perceive him to be as equally strong or weak as you are??!
“I’m sure treating a woman as an equal will strenghten cohesion and counsel in the family than making her an ‘aatakke untu lekakke illa’.”
– This statement of Shri Rao mixes his own natural Manly nature with the Libber’s purported agenda. I’ll show how.
Shri Rao speaks about “treating” a Woman as an equal. He allows for the possibility that even though the Woman “may not” be equal, Man would be well advised to treat her as an equal.
It is not that a Woman by herself and on her own worth, can assume a position of equality. It needs to be acknowledged by her (?) Man to be true!
This is not my stance. I believe Man and Woman complement each other because neither one may flourish alone. That is why the family is so important.
Now, if we were to grant Shri Rao’s wish of “treating” Woman as an equal we are;
firstly, moving away from a nobler and more co operative principle;
secondly, introducing a basic element of uncalled for authorization that the Woman will receive from her Man;
thirdly, there will be no getting away from a contest for “equality” now since Man who can authorize, can also negate;
fourthly, as any contest must do, will lead to a sense of “Winning” the contest thereby burying the original goal of Equality and replacing it with “Domination of the Other”!
Libbers have become so crass that any mention of these points leads to – Why should Woman give up?? Why not the Man?? – Any sense of co-operation induces in them the sense of complete and total surrender. That’s the time to stop talking to them.
Shriman shri purushottama PH, your rants are getting too acidic and corrosive. Cool it. If you do want to have a meaningful dialogue, I’m game. But if all that you want is sparr, lets drop this.
I never said the above ; stop trying to put words into my mouth. At the cost of repeating, all I said (like Sandesh) was that ‘ it is insulting to argue women of yesterday were empowered as their husbands listened to them ‘. Reading into that as enslavement is just your fertile imagination. ‘aatakke untu lekakke illa’ IS NOT = slavery. Not empowered should not automatically mean enslavement ?
Those are your words. Not mine ! And I’m not super-imposing anything here sir. All I said was ‘ slavery , racism, casteism, each of these evils had a strength vs. weakness equation that started them’ . So if (your own words) ‘ there is no reason to think that a woman was not empowered in traditional society ‘ why can one not use the same argument to say casteism was done for a reason and people who complain of injustice should infact feel empowered ? Per you, they were empowered to the best of their abilities(yogyathege takka mattakke) as decided by the select few, a la the empowered traditional woman ?
Parsing, wordplay ? C’mon PH, you can do better than that. I’m sure I can pivot at many words of yours and try to derive an angle where none is to be found. Like ‘If someone is NOT empowered, do you consider them to be slaves ? ‘ Looks like it. My choice of words could have been better, I concede you that. That apart, don’t you think you are reading too much into it and going way off track ? Unless that’s your intent ?
See what I mean ? Now will you argue with her if she deems women are inhuman ? It was just ‘figure of speech’. Can we move on ? Needless to say, I will ignore your 4 point rant using that as a basis …
You are all over the map ! Helping someone in need is different than what’s meted out to women. This man is NOT being told the following :
1. You CANNOT wear tight jeans or shorts
2. You cannot drink
2. Shri Ram Sene is will hound you if you are found in a pub and the CM will attribute the boorish behaviour to pubbing..
If you intent is to just win the argument at all costs, no matter what the real opinion at the other end is, be candid, and I will fan you ego and concede with a ‘You Win’ ; I’m sure a few others here will join me.
My position on the matter is very simple. Women have been deified, discriminated, denied, ignored, but hardly heard or understood. To argue my granny’s generation was better heard and understood is insanely stupid. To think a man gets to decide(and weild) how much of freedom a woman is accorded in a male chavunistic society that extends the same, without a whimper, to a man, is pathetic.
The real issue is that our Palahalli has some serious mental block when it comes to the word “Liberal”. One would need to conduct a serious background investigation to find out the roots of this deep-seated hate and complex he has for this word.
Putting words in others’ mouth, ranting without responding to questions posed, etc. etc. are all trademark qualities of Palahalli. All he has at his command is some rant with “liberals” as the focus.
I strongly feel that guys like these are seriously insecure when it comes to women wearing skirts or jeans, drinking beer, working in a call center, etc. etc. And this, in my opinion, is the reason for the froth-at-the-mouth screaming at some “liberal” creature.
Nanna points idu
a) The article tries to compare the lifestyle of women of two different (radically!) generations. According to the article the elder generation had various means of exercise and did not need “gym” to keep them fit. The idea is that somehow the “gym” is an artificial one where as the labor that Ajji did was natural. Upon reading the article again I think that the author went a little overboard in belittling the needs of exercise for todays women (and men too!!).
b) Madhu Rao, Putti and Subbulakshmi et al pointed out that while the lifestyle of Ajji is nostalgic, the times have changed enormously and what was true once is not true anymore. According to todays lifestyle, we need gym, we need workout on all the gym equipment (sorry.. I just do jogging and never been in a gym proper to differentiate the various equipments). This is not to establish superiority/inferiority of two generations as far as physical exercise is required.
c) You said
“Women earlier felt empowered in their own way. Of course the Man was the deciding factor..but he listened to his wife’s counsel much more than a man would today.”
Honestly I don’t see what’s the connection here. What has empowerment got to do with health ? Why talk about equality and non-equality of sexes here ?
d) I said that women cannot be called to be empowered just because a man listened to them (yet he still is the “deciding factor”). Haagidre enu hottu kaLeyoka heNdati maatu keLiddu ?? onthara aatakke untu lekkake illa type ?
e) Now that you have brought the discussion to liberals vs conservatives, and equate women’s rights to liberal ideology the discussion has gone to a completely different field. And I am not ready to debate it out on this forum.
BTW, right to equality does NOT mean that both men/women are to be put in a same physical situation to be considered equal. There is clearly differences between both sexes. And it means just that. DIfferent!!!
Equality as I see it for women is the ability for her to make choices on her own for what she thinks is good for her, to have to be recognized for her abilities without any prejudice/bias, opportunity to do what she wants without any fear and finally demanding the same moral standards as men (men can go pubbing while women can’t is just one example of this).
Your posts are becoming very predictable in that you tend to put all blame on liberals. If speaking their mind and not conforming to your expected set of rules makes a person liberal, I think majority of women/men would like to be liberal.
Madhu Rao and Vinay
I agree with both of you.
Thanks for your responses MR and Vinay.
I have a few questions only;
1. Please define “Equality of the Sexes” (ES).
Putti had this to say and I agreed with her, “We all are different and unique”. You may or may not want to consider this statement while defining ES.
2. Please define an MCP Society. What Societies today would you categorize as non-MCP Societies and why?
Rama Sene’s act is not a point of defense with me. I have said that many times before. However, the larger feminist debate that that act gave rise to certainly calls for interrogation.
That said, I don’t understand why you must shy away from my 4 point flow. Are you denying it’s reality in any Liberalized society?
Vinay, I had avoided the “Liberal” category till now in this thread. I am thankful to you for reminding me that my avoidance does not negate its existence or relevance as a useful tool to categorize a social/political stance. So I have used it again.
Sandesh – a,b,c – Unfair to take up against me when there were other commenters who deviated before me. Please read up again.
d. One person has to decide in a family. Please tell me of a family that can work on two or more final decisions! Even in families where both husband and wife work.
e. “liberals vs conservatives” – Et tu Sandesh? I guess the arguments themselves are so well positioned that these categories highlight themselves.
f. So, you agree the sexes are different. But you don’t agree that they can be unequal.
g. I see. You talk of Legal Equality. I have no issue with that. However, the trouble starts when one tries to impose this Legal Equality in the name of non-discrimination. Let me provide illustrations.
A legally empowered woman may have an equal opportunity to join the armed forces but that does not mean she can get in if she does not measure up.
Upon entry, would you agree if male soldiers insist that women fight in combat zones too even though, considering their ‘differences”, they have been explicitly disallowed to do so by the Army? Would it be fine if the males claim to be discriminated against?
Again, considering the fact that because females are “different” and are allowed to take up less dangerous tasks, they get paid less than male soldiers who have to serve in combat zones, would you call that discriminatory against Women?
On “pubs”, I would refer you back to the “scenarios” post you sportively responded to. If I remember right, you hesitated to accord males the same “right” to clothes they saw would highlight their own ample asset. I will try to find that link.
Finally, please speak your mind but don’t expect not to be challenged strongly.
Sandesh, found the link and post! Here you go..
My initial post – 27 January 2009 at 8:25 pm
Sandesh’s response to it – 27 January 2009 at 11:43 pm
My response to his response – 28 January 2009 at 2:17 pm
You said :
Your comments are riddled with the word “Libber”. So how exactly were you avoiding the Liberal category ?
I have put my views in a concise para PH. Here it is again :
Any further attempts at a dialogue will just mean a rehash of what I have said and prove futile. I agree with Sandesh and Vinay in their recent comments and with Putti, Subbulakshmi and Faldo from before. Like Vinay noted, on this topic, I find my views diametrically opposite to yours. While I fundamentally disagree with that perspective of yours — like rest of the folks I mentioned–, I’ll let it be — agree to disagree.
MR – Libber would be a Woman’s Lib patron.
Not Liberal. I use Liberal when I want to say Liberal.
I can understand you agreeing to disagree. There seems to be no other go.
Reminds me of what Sudha Murty, chairperson of Infosys Foundation once said in Business Today magazine: “I have no servants at home and do all my housework myself. That way, I get good exercise and don’t need to go to a gym.”
“Sandesh – a,b,c – Unfair to take up against me when there were other commenters who deviated before me. Please read up again. ”
Yes. Others did deviate in trying to say that the comparisons are meaningless and insulting to present day women. Sorry. My mistake in attributing deviation to you.
“One person has to decide in a family. Please tell me of a family that can work on two or more final decisions! Even in families where both husband and wife work.”
No PH. Why should one person decide anything? I believe that both husband and wife should debate (healthy, of course) and arrive at a solution that is sensible. Even in families where both work (in fact both working is not a matter at all.. a family must still take collective actions).
“I guess the arguments themselves are so well positioned that these categories highlight themselves. ”
Hmm.. so you do want to classify people according to libs and conservatives even if you don’t name them as such ?
“So, you agree the sexes are different. But you don’t agree that they can be unequal. ”
No sir… how can difference = non-equality ?
They are just different.
“You talk of Legal Equality”
I don’t. I talk of equal opportunities and no prejudice on basis of gender. I don’t understand this legal equality with capital L and capital E.
“A legally empowered woman may have an equal opportunity to join the armed forces but that does not mean she can get in if she does not measure up.”
Correct. If she doesn’t measure up she cannot join. Same goes with men right ?
“If I remember right, you hesitated to accord males the same “right” to clothes they saw would highlight their own ample asset. ”
I went through the post. I said no such thing. Please re-read it again.
I am firm on one matter though. There cannot be comparisons b/w generations of women. To claim that older gen was better than current one is simply demeaning to current generation.
Sandesh – I had asked some basic questions of MR and Vinay. I got no response to these. I do wish folks who want to defend “equality” between sexes would, in the first place be clear about what they want to defend.
I now see you don’t too.
# There is no point in debating how a particular family should make decisions. Each family will decide for itself. How do you dictate a particular behavior and demean another just because *you* like it? Can a wife not trust her husband to make the right choices? They might debate when they feel the need to. They might even seek a higher familial counsel.
There is a touching episode in Ambedkar’s life when his wife scolds him for ignoring his health. Ambedkar brushes her objections aside and does what he thinks best. You may think she should have walked out on the heartless fellow…and that’s what the Libber recommends. She did differently and Ambedkar did not expect otherwise.
Similarly, Savarkar’s wife waited for him through all those long years of incarceration and confinement. Again…his wife not only waited for him to return, but lived with him through all his eccentricities in his later years. A Libber would not hear of such a thing.
These are famous folk…but no reason to think ordinary families reacted differently. Of course one cannot generalize. There was an Indira Gandhi too.
# I do not want to classify anybody. Stances are classified already. For instance, a Social Conservative cannot agree with same sex “marriage”. While a Liberal will feel out-of-depth if he denies it.
You might want to reference the idiotic advisory EU circulated on enforcing gender neutral terms. Please tell me how any Liberal can deny its validity given the fact that *it* bases itself on complete equality between sexes by the simple expedient of eliminating *sex*?
# Please tell me of two that are different and also equal in their capacities/capabilities. Any two.
My argument that man and woman are unequal is beyond doubt. Both have their respective strengths and weaknesses. They *complement* one another. None can *replace* the other. Very different from the manner Liberals and Libbers are prone to thinking.
# Equal opportunities have a Legal basis. They cannot spring from the winds or the seas. A Legal authority must assure such access to equal opportunity. But how does one reconcile this Legal requirement with reality without making way for acceptance of such realities in life?
I was hoping you would have responded to the latter two scenarios concerning male soldier discontent and pay related to risk. Please respond to these.
# On the older post, you said;
“…But the first thing I would do is to alert the manager and the bouncers. Also, call up the cops if that escort’s behaviour is on the aggressive. With my friends, I would rush and try to see what the matter is. Hopefully the bouncers and cops should be able to diffuse the situation.”
– The very thought that a male would wear to show-off his asset shocked you. Why should it have when he was simply replicating something “Liberated” women commonly do in such settings as I described? Where is the *equality* you speak of?
But if you have changed your mind since then, I’m fine with that.
*Readers might want to read the exchange to seek context*
# On generation “wars”…I will simply say this. Older folks might have lived differently but the new one is blundering terribly in the hope of ensuring equality and uncritical non-discrimination in society.
*Again, I would not want to generalize here. I’m very happy that our country still has a large and evolving Conservative core instead of being burdened by a ruined Liberal mass.
I think a lot of confusion can be cleared up by defining “equality” to Palahalli here.
Saar, political and social equality does not mean or require sameness. Two completely different beings of vastly different physical, intellectual, emotional or other abilities must still be politically/socially/legally equal. That much is common humanity and basic justice.
So stop conflating being identical with being equal.
Men are men, women are women, Gujjus are Gujjus and Kannadigas are Kannadigas… all are different and unique as individuals, nevertheless ALL DESERVE EQUAL POLITICAL, SOCIAL AND LEGAL RIGHTS.