To all but those who have not been following events over the last week, it is clear the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) is in trouble.
The “Hindu Nationalist Party”‘s claim to power has been patently rejected by a proudly pluralistic electorate. For a party which has boasted of its rise from two seats in Parliament to 182, it has been downhill since its 1999 tally, its seatshare falling by 44 to 138 in 2004, and by a further 22 to 116 this time round. Its national voteshare has dipped from 22.2% to 18.8% in every single State of the Union except Himachal Pradesh and Karnataka where it showed a small increase.
On the one hand, L.K. Advani ‘s cheap, negative and personalised campaign seems destined to carry him into Google cache as the perennial prime minister-in-waiting. On the other hand, the prime minister-in-midstream, Narendra Damodardas Modi, is facing three identifiable impediments. His own State is no longer so secure, the BJP’s voteshare diminishing slightly from 47.37% to 46.52%. His national appeal on the basis of the “development agenda” has been exposed as hype; of the 300-plus rallies he addressed, BJP won but 37 seats (against 75 for Rahul Gandhi‘s 102 meetings). And slowly but surely voices opposed to Modi’s execrable brand of hate politics are being heard from within his own party, many of whom who have an eye on the chair Modi is eyeing.
Worse, the BJP seems to have painted itself into a corner as a party whose only USP is verbal and physical violence (Kandhamal, Mangalore, Varun Gandhi), and whose vision is inextricably linked with a long ago past (think Ram Janmabhoomi, Ram Sethu) when a younger, impatient, forward-looking country wants a break from divisiveness and backwardness of all kind. The so-called “party of banias” has lost all metros (except Bangalore) and the self-proclaimed “party with a difference” has for years and months offered no viable alternative to the Congress; just a supercilious, resentment-filled justification of everything because “Congress did this, Congressman did that”.
Stranger things have happened in politics, of course, but is it all over for BJP’s brand of politics? Will it ever come back to power?
Also read: 20 questions (and 10 supplementaries) for May 16
Will L.K. Advani ever be prime minister?
L.K. ADVANI: ‘The man who sowed the dragon seeds of hatred’
BJP will certainly rule India again. Most people will be very pessimistic of that possibility, but that’s the nature of our mind. It tends to treat current reality as a static phenomenon that’ll never change. But, change it will.
There will have to be a combination of things for BJP to spring back.
1. A good leader, who is acceptable to more than just Hindutva Brigade and is appealing in terms of capabilities.
2. Clarity instead of cacophony. It is a Rightist Hindu party. It’s always been and people who voted for it before (and do so now) did that knowing this very well. But, the people who are deserting it may be doing so, because it looks very confused. It should disassociate itself through action (not just words) from parties that are anarchist – Shivsena, Sriram Sena and other vanar senas of Hindu Lunatic fringe should be brought to book someway to demonstrate BJP stands for disciplined Hindu renaissance rather than violent, uncivilized, uncontrollable mob culture.
3. Clarity in communication regarding the alternative model they’ll present. It isn’t enough to say “I object”. BJP Should come up with credible alternative models. Not be obstructionist – should be seen to be supporting good measures. I liked what Tarun Vijay has written in his blog : http://tarunvijay.org/2009/05/who-falls-if-india-rises/
Why oppose for the sake of opposing. When you see something wrong, and something that can be done better by all means be constructive in opposing, but no point in doing what BJP was doing with the Nuclear deal.
4. Inter party unity: The leaders will need to realize – disunited they all fall. BJP was a very disciplined party once, today it isn’t. They have to fix that by looking into what is their priority.
I Feel that BJP will come to power again as these things are cyclical. It is impossible for me to think Congress will again rule us for next 30 years. BJP should find unity and strength to keep positioning itself as a credible alternative, and people will be glad and thankful as Congress is bound to get arrogant and inefficient at sometime , and loose it.
Afterall, how many folks had written off Congress about 10 years back? It bounced back, so can BJP.
Let’s hope so.. I don’t look forward to multiple decades of Congress-ocracy…
As a person who does not share the philosophy of BJP or its muscle trust the RSS, I DO hope BJP grows up to be a credible alternative in democratic society. The country does need an alternative to Congress (whom I currently support) that has been re-elected as the least harmful alternative. The corruption and unscrupulous practices of Congress are well documented.
Unfortunately, it is perceived as a better alternative to equally corrupt parties such a BJP, RJD, etc, but at least more effective. A sad state, in deed.
One way for BJP to stage a comeback is to encourage the spirit of reasoning and questioning within its ranks and disclaim the “Sarsanghchaalak knows best’ principle.
Blind following of the leaders, unshakable faith in Hindu supremacy, unfounded doubt about the loyalty and patriotism of all non-Hindus flies in the face of the scientific thinking that our Upanishads promoted.
Living and leading in this increasingly well-informed pluralistic world requires the party to be less dogmatic, more principled and more open to diverse thoughts and beliefs. Attacks on minorities, people celebrating Valentines’s day (in the land of Kamasutra) are evidence of Talibanization. BJP in its current form and shape, I am afraid is not particularly equipped to pursue such a path or revival.
Parties which do not heed to such changes in the society, like the Christian Right in the USA, will be consigned to the dust bin of history.
Sridhar
Nobody can predict anything.
No political pundit foresaw the rise of Cong in UP
Nor did they see fall of Behenji within 3 years of coming to power
Nor did they see BJPs vote share diminishing in Gujarat.
Nor did they see Cong actually catching up with BJP in MP
Nor did they see DMK-Cong romping home in Tamil Nadu.
Nor did they see YSR actually increase Cong tally in AP
Nor did they see Naveen Patnaik win with a massive mandate.
So, who knows what will happen to BJP five years from now?
A week is a long time in poltics. and Five years can radically alter the political scene.
BJP may revive. Or Cong may get 350 plus seats if it performs.
OK. People of India have not forgotten the Emergency declared by a former Prime Minister belonging to Congress party. The simple reason : the verdict of the Allahabad High Court. People will definitely read and introspect the happenings of the Indian history. If Hinduism cannot survive in India where else should it go? Appeasing a a particular group always for their personal gains will not always help.
harkol – Yeah…I like you this way better..keep it up buddy! But I’m not sure if the BJP has enough balls to proclaim itself a Hindu party. It has never done that you see?
If you click on my name, you’ll get to my website. When you get there…get to Radha Rajan’s series of articles on the BJP’s mind. Very revealing.
Why does Satya think that Hinduism cannot survive in India? because the BJP did not win a general Election !!
The party could have done better had it stuck to highlighting how it planned to tackle the main issues that mattered to people such as economy and security. Instead the party got entangled in one distraction after another just before the elections. The fallout of this was clearly underestimated by the party.
It is also relevant to note that the ruling dispensation ran both a well coordinated and well financed campaign, unlike in the past. Hopefully the right lessons have been learnt.
If bjp changes its politics and turns itself into a improved version of c ongress only then it can stage a comeback. but it will not be bjp then.it will be something new.Being committed to Hindu raj idea rss will never allow bjp to change itself into a secular party.the space for communal discourse is shrinking with post modern developments occupying increasing space day by day.on the other hand there is a fertile ground for a more advanced alternative having sharp marxian edges.but it can happen only if present left formations are weakened substantially and all scattered elements get organized on democratic principles.it may be considered loud thinking at this juncture but history is on their side. however people have set the limits. both versions of anti cogressism (right and left) are outdated.consolidation of the national perspective is on the ride again after experiencing great pains during the last three decades.
It will come back…if it gets its own bloody media…to tell its story . But then they are controlled by chaddis with rusted brains.
Theoretically yes, it is possible.
All it takes is one emotive issue, linking Muslim in some issues which will stoke deep fears in Hindus. Then again all those region where Muslims are in sizable, BJP has bases. The only hope is getting some 180+, hope regional parties will come to its fold.
Remember M.J.Akbar quote “one the BJP has numbers regional parties will see issue in stability and non-congress govt”
Two points,
1.) If you had added one more option, called “I HOPE NOT” I would have chosen that.
2.) I don’t think BJP protects Hinduism, I think does a lot of harm to Hinduism, by interfering with the very basics, they have reconversions and violence, and destroying of places of worship, forcing women to cover up or beating women to stop them from drinking (Never heard of Som Ras, our mythology has accepted drinking by both men and women?)…etc.
Palahalli
This election is a sound defeat for parties which believe in identity politics, whether it is religion, caste or class.
Caste based parties bit the dust (RJD, SP, BSP, PMK)
Religious based parties bit the dust (Shiv Sena, PDP, BJP)
Primitive ideological parties sank (CPI CPM)
And you want BJP to proudly proclaim itself as a Hindu party? When people in BJP ruled Madhya Pradesh are selling blood for water, what is the use of proclaiming yourself loudly as a Hindu party?
Religion is only for the well-fed. The rest need water, jobs, food.
India is in a situation where the Islamic tail wags the Indian dog…. India for ever will suck up muslim leaders and Congress calls this communal neoptism as secular. BJP should get its act together and we need it to get strong to act as counterweight to Congress. Just when it is right to induct Thiru Karuna’s legitimate and illegitimate progeny to Central ministry. Singh should hang his head in shame. But he is only a ventriloquist-Sonia’s and Rahul’s dummy. This is democratic India today!
Simple:
I don’t think BJP ever claimed anything but being a Hindu party. It proudly proclaims its connections with Sangh Pariwar. You are right in saying people need water, jobs & food. But, then BJP can give all that by standing for what they think is their ideological moorings.
BJP needs RSS to be relevant. Congress has the family as its backbone and BJP has sangh pariwar as its backbone. It is difficult for either to move away from their backbones. But, that’s largely irrelevant to voters – who choose a party on their existing needs.
However, consider following:
1. Faster we move to a dual party system as in US/UK, more stable our country will be. If we can’t change our system to presidential form, least we can do is resolve to support only two parties. In India, we only have these two parties.
2. At any given time one of these two alternatives will look better depending on the leader and political environment at that time. And a mature democracy needs substantial portion of its voters to shift their vote as per situation, instead of being dogmatic. Otherwise we’ll have one party rule like we had betwen 1947-77.
3. If in US blacks can think of Democratic party as their natural party today, there is no reason why Muslims & Christians one day can’t adopt BJP as their natural party! Think of it, good portion of Democrats were largely against abolishing slavery and president woodrow wilson (1913), allowed Segregation as a national policy. Also consider this – Abrham Lincoln founded Republican party and fought a civil war and gave his life for abolishing slavery. However, republican party, over the time, lost the black voters to democrats and by 1960s JFK had practically owned them!!!
But, today large portion of Black people vote for either republican and Democratic without much hesitation, as long as their leader stands for what they think is right for the country. That has come about because Blacks don’t see recriminations by either party anymore.
4. Our polity will be completely unmanageable, if we allow worms like Raj Thackeray or Pramod Mutalik etc to thrive. But then, both congress and BJP support such elements. Their tacit support make people like Raj & Pramod grow.
However, there has to be some room available for people who support these extreme elements to be represented in a democratic way. A Hindu (or tamil or Kannada/ Marati) party that represents and reassures them is entirely desirable as long as they work within the scope of law and don’t use violence as a tool.
BJP represents Hindu frustrations very well at times. So, it is needed as a pressure release valve in such situations, to keep such frustrations within manageable levels.
5. Congress is unlikely to do radical reform of our governance. That is the biggest grouse I have with them. They have created a lethargic corrupt, centrally controlled bureaucracy and laws that are very detrimental for fast growth. BJP didn’t change it radically when they had the opportunity, but atleast their achievements in Telecom, Infrastructure was far better.
There is absolutely no scope for a party to exist, if it doesn’t have an identity or ideology. But, the point entirely is about how it can balance the countries needs with that of its ideology. When that goes out of balance, mature voters will punish it – Like Indira Gandhi being thrown out when she imposed emergency.
1. You are right in sofar as saying every party needs a backbone. The difference between the backbone of Congress and BJP is that Congress’s backbone is democratically elected, while BJP’s backbone does not have the consent of the people. It is very undemocratic.
2. BJP has adopted dynasty also as its backbone. Look at Dushyantm MP from Rajasthan. he is the son of Vasundhara Raje who in turn is the daugher of Vijayaraje Scindia, former Union Cabinet Minister. BJP already has a third generation in politics. Completely because of dynasty.
BJP also has Himachal Pradesh CM’s son as an MP
BJP also has Karnataka CM’s son as an MP
BJP also gave ticket to Jaswant Singhs son who lost.
It took 17 years for Cong to adopt Dynasty politics and BJP made it quicker than that.
So clearly, the backbone of BJP is Sangh Parivar PLUS dynasty.
BJP at the centre, does not have dynasty politics, for the moment because Vajyapee isnt married and Advani’s children have maintained that at the moment, they are not getting into politics. Note carefull: Advani’s children have never categorically denied that they would enter politics.
3. Why go so far as US to show that blacks think of democrat as their own party? Look at our own Mayawati. She got a majority in UP assembly. Could you ever have imagined Brahmins voting for Maya? She was vociferously , aggressively against Brahmins and other upper castes, yet within a span of a few years, she got them voting fo her.
From Bahujan Samaj she changed her slogan to Sarvajan Samaj
If parties change their ideology, of course people will change their perception about them. Its no big secret.
Yes, Muslims and Christians could vote for BJP. At the same time, who knows staunch BJP supporters or Hindu zealots could also vote for Congress.
Nothing can be ruled out.
There are several things one can say with respect to observations made this far. Let me see if I can do a good job of it :)
1. B.S. Sridhar – Sir, I think that in a world that is inundated with free access to information of all kinds, there are dangers of people not being well informed at all. That also seems to be the case presently.
The Sangh Parivar does not follow the “Sarsanghachalak knows best” policy. See, there are times in any organization or party when “founders”, “founder-leaders”, “mentors” etc etc acquire a certain respectability and reverence that is naturally denied to contemporaries post that venerable generation. So, I will trust my father’s opinion more than I will my brother’s. I will question my brother more. Similarly in the Sangh, Hedgewar, Golwalkar, Deoras were such stalwarts. Post them, Rajendra Singh witnessed this loss of reverence first and then KC Sudarshan further and now Mohan Bhagwat is a young contemporary, slightly older than Modi himself. There are numerous instances to prove what I am saying here.
In so far as Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism) and minorities is concerned there is an articulated awareness that Hindus are a nation unto themselves and have a right to be recognized as such. This has nothing to do with any “unshakable faith in Hindu supremacy”. Here the boot is on the other foot. It is the minorities, more specifically the Christian and Muslim, that assert unshakeable faith in the supremacy of Christianity and Islam. When this assertion is taken in context of the unrecognized Hindu nation within our recognized multicultural polity, is it not natural to doubt their patriotism? There is nothing wrong in such natural doubt only because the pieces do not fit in Christians and Muslims vis a vis Hindu rashtra. It is the Hindu nation that raises this doubt and not the secular Indian state.
Sweeping assertions of “attacks” on minorities must take into account cause and real instances of attacks on the Hindu nation wherever it finds itself in a minority. Valentine’s Day is opposed by many including secular dispensations. This is only natural because I feel that there is a positive revulsion here. Linking this to the Kama sutra does not do anybody any good. It’s a debate that can easily deteriorate on basis of fact to levels secularists will not be able to hold.
Sathya – Very important point. I have always said that even if the BJD won 100% of seats in Orissa it would not be able to stop another Kandhamal. Secularists must ponder reasons.
rahul mirchi – Sathya’s concern, if I may speak for him, has nothing to do with the BJP. In fact the BJP has not made any effort to speak for Hindus as such. Sathya has the reigning secular thrust in mind. There have always been definite efforts to weaken Sanatana Dharma by India’s secularists from before independence to present. Whether our Dharma succumbs or not is another matter.
charan gill – Your post in fact summarizes the subversion that has always been under way in this country. If anybody is interested, they must access Radha Rajan on YouTube.
Janardhan Reddy- If the BJP is truly sincere about its place in the Hindu nation, then no number of “rusted brains” can stop it.
Indian Homemaker – You make similar points to Sridhar. You also speak of re-conversions and “destroying places of worship”.
Why are reconversions bad?
Why should the Babri Masjid not have been destroyed? – Of course you cannot claim Muslims and Christians don’t indulge in such acts. But I would still like a positive explanation as to why you find this destruction objectionable?
More will follow –
***
Simple – I could have agreed with you if this were a fact. Let me explain.
Let us take the BJP and the BSP.
The BSP consciously tried to divest itself of its “only Dalit” identity. It was the only party that wooed the Brahmins also openly.
The BJP had diluted its Hindu identity long back. You yourself have argued on this score. I opposed your argument because I was hoping against hope that you were wrong. The fact is the BJP has no Hindu identity left in it. Hindus recognize this fault line clearly.
Where is the connexion between the BJP or any other being a Hindu party and it not doing anything for people who are “selling blood for water”? This is a very foolish argument and a huge red herring.
“Religion is only for the well-fed. The rest need water, jobs, food.” – Another foolish line. This is what the Communists say remember? And you call them primitive? ;)
harkol – I think you sort of accept a “yeah…there’s your place”, kinda role for the Hindu nation. I would like to be much more assertive in reclaiming our natural place in the sun. As it stands, there isn’t any for us yet.
Everyone can see why the BJP is so important for electoral democracy in India- except perhaps the BJP itself.
The Congress- MMS duo is surely going to run out of steam over the next 5 years and certainly the babalog will make a bid for power without the figleaf of MMS in 2014. The BJP will have to be ready to face the soul sapping enervated blandness of the Rahul Gandhis and not with the gut withering poison of the Modis or lunacy of the Swarajs. That will be the challenge for the BJP.
Love the absolute glee with which the (not)”secular” media like yourself report that the BJP is over. Public memory is of course short, but a journalist’s memory, I guess is shorter. If they’d care to recall, the journos would look at the elections in 1998 and 1999 – and what was said about the Congress then.
Hindu Nationalist … Mr. Ex-MP of Mysore lost because he did not take special care of his community leaders(same one as Siddaramaiah and Mr. MP’s) … whereas our MP not only sponsored celebrations & feasts in the religious institutions belonging to the community but has also allegedly promised prime land for them in major cities(inyaavadu nammooru and rajadhani).
So don’t be surpised if a * Bhavana comes up in Doddakere maidana or JK Grounds or other locations in the heart of the city.
Thumba Secular! yaava definition kELagO naa kaaNe … :<
Palahalli
Other than calling me names and abusing me (typical trademark of right wingers), your argument is utterly unconvincing.
You seem to agree with me that BSP changed its philosopy of ‘dalits’ only to ‘everybody’. So what are you quiblling about? BSP changed its ideology and hence Brahmins voted for it.
On the other hand, BJP is confused. By wooing Muslims, it did get a better all rounded personality. But this was more than offset by Varun Gandhi’s hate speeches. And worse, no full hearted condemnation by top rung of BJP.
Result?
Nobody was sure what BJP stood for. And hence
Just because i call Communist ideology as primitive, that does not mean i blindly oppose whatever they stand for.
BJP tried to blindly oppose many of Congress’s nationalist policies and hence they paid for it dearly.
In Madhya Pradesh, there is a water scarcity in some parts. So severe is the shortage, that people are selling their blood to get water.
Obviously the urgent need here is water. Not religion. If you go and sell Hindutva for a man who is thirsty and starved, he will show you the door.
Palahalli:
>I think you sort of accept a “yeah…there’s your place”
I, for one, believe that there is a place within India for all sorts of thoughts. But, there is no place for violent action of the kind Senes, Dals or MIM (in case of Nasreen) involve in.
It is perfectly OK for someone to think a particular community’s beliefs are bad and they have to be countered, but it isn’t acceptable for that thought to be put to action out of the limits of law and constitution.
That also explains why I feel Babri Demolition was wrong. The question isn’t if it was a masjid/mandir, because that’s a matter no one can prove or disprove to the satisfaction of other party, so it is irrelevant, except in a court of law.
The problem is about how a group of people broke a supreme court order and took law into their hand. :-(
I hate any act of anarchism, but support any sort of thought process, how ever ridiculous or unagreeable they may be. And BJP (and RSS) philosophy by and large is well founded and has many supporters. But, they should propound them in a legal, constitutional and civil manner. My difference with BJP is only when they support anarchists.
Simple:
I think you missed my point. Any mature nation needs to have ideally 2 (or 3) strong political formations and these formations over a period of time evolve good processes to become self-sustaining over generations. However, at their infancy, they need solid backbone.
Calling Yediyurappa’s son (or someone else’s son) as dynastical backbone of BJP is stretching one’s imagination too far. Congress would’ve gone the Janata Party way in the last decade, if Sonia Gandhi (and Rahul later) didn’t step forward and if everyone within the party didn’t accepted their leadership and fell in line. From that perspective Gandhi family is the backbone of congress.
No one family can do that for BJP, except Sangh Pariwar (RSS). And they both need their backbones. Once we mature as a nation (perhaps in another 50-100years) and both these parties have internal processes (Shall we say muscles) that are stronger than their current backbones, then these backbones will become less relevant.
BSP is a good case in point about Voter being agnostic of identity politics in the long run. But, that’s not what I was trying to say. I was trying to defend BJP’s need for a backbone at this time, and that can only be found in the Sangh Pariwar Ideology and cadre backing. But, BJP should also influence Sangh Pariwar to nip-out the violent forces within, and support any govt. action to punish such forces.
It is far better for India to have a Economic Rightist and Moderate Hindu party like BJP, representing Hindu aspirations than have small, uncontrollable hindu militant groups, that will invariably spring up (and have sprung up) through an induction of the Religious intolerance India is surrounded with.
I won’t mind BJP doing a jaw-jaw on matters Hindu in all forums including Parliament. My problem comes when it is only Hindu issues they talk up (to the exclusion of all development agenda) and when it is no longer Jaw-Jaw and their pariwar starts breaking things.
BJP remains a distant second. And with the way things look today BJP seems to have lost it totally. And if Congress can manage to put up good governance for the comming 5 years, then BJP will surely go back to the 2 seats from where it started.
Harkol
1. I notice you carefully avoided commenting on how Congress’s backbone is wholly completely totally democratic while BJP’s backbone is wholly completely totally undemocratic.
Sangh Parivar does not have any sanction of the people to wield authority over BJP.
2. BJPs backbone right now is limited to states. Vijayareaje groomed her daughter Vasundra who is now grooming her son . BJP in Rajasthan is already run by Vasundharas family, and not by BJP
3. BJP’s backbone in Karnataka is Yediyurappa and family. Raghevendra has acquired a stature greater than many minsters in Yediyurappas cabinet.
4. BJPs backbone in Himachal Pradesh is Dhumal family.
5. What starts off in the states will soon rise to the centre. Natural law of progresssion/evolution, if u may call it.
6. BJP’s ex friend BJD’s backbone in Orissa is Biju Patnaik Family
7. BJP’s ex friend JDS’s backbone in Karnataka is Deve Gowda family
8. BJP’s exfriend NC’s backbone in Kashmir is Farooq’s family.
9. BJP’s current friend SAD’s backbone is Prakash Bada’s family.
10. BJP’s ex friend TDP’s backbone is Naidu’s family.
11. BJP’s thickest friend Shiv Sena’s backbone in Maharashtra is Thackeray family.
13. As, you can see, in state after state after state (and that includes three states ruled by BJP) the backbone is the family. And in all these states, this structure of backbone is ACTIVELY ENCOURAGED and SUPPORTED by BJP.
6.Why be apologetic of a ‘backbone’? why wait for 50-100 years for us to ‘mature’? As if everything is hunky dory in so called mature democracies. As far as i am concerned, we are alerady mature . We have shown that we don’t want identity politics to decide our lives, we want development and inclusive politics.
Voters have shown the door to parties which played up identity politics
1. PDP in kashmir (islam identity)
2. BJP (hindu identity)
3. Madani in Kerala (Islamic Identity),
4. Sajjad Lone in Kashmir (separitist identity closer to pakistan than India)
5. Shiv Sena (marathi identity)
6. BSP (dalit identity) LJP (dalit)
7. PMK (vanniyar identity)
8. SP (Yadav-muslim identity)
9. Laloo (Yadav-Muslim identity)
10. TRS (statehood identity)
Each one of the above was dumped in the electoral bin for playing up identity politics. Except Congress. It is the only party which had a wholesome appeal about it. the rest were narrow, tight and rigid.
Happily and notably even the tamil identity raised by an opportunist MDMK allliance bit the dust in Tamil Nadu. MDMK, the staunchest supporter of hardline Tamil indentity/LTTE, got thrashed at the elections.
So guys, stop this babble about some party represnting Hindu, Islam, Dalit and other miscellaneous causes/ identities. The more fierce and vociferous you get about identity politics, the more divided our country will become.
We need less of ‘identity’ and more of ‘development’ to dictate the course of our public lives. All of the above ten examples is stark reality. you guys can continue to ignore it and start all over the shrill rhetoric …but nobody’s going to listen.
Certainly not the voters
And.
And that, is the essence of our mature democracy. We are already mature. We don’t need internet intellectuals to tell us how immature we are.
***
P.S.: You can add Vatal Nagraj also to the above list. He represented the Kannada identity. and he got 1500 votes.
Simple – No one can sell Hindutva. It’s part and parcel of all Hindus already. That is why I find your neat bifurcation so offensive. Who says Hindutva and development are different water tight compartments? I suggest you understand Hindutva before commenting about it. No one can reject religion in Hindu society and still survive. Just see how the Communists campaigned in Bengal and what Varun’s opposition in Pilibhit have had to say during their campaign. They tried to project themselves better protectors of Hindus :) Like I said, the BJP got scared of its own shadow. They forsook Hindutva but Hindus still own it.
This is what you said, “This election is a sound defeat for parties which believe in identity politics, whether it is religion, caste or class.”
– This does not jell with the fact that BSP infact expanded its base to include Brahmins and inspite of it got thumped. Same with BJP. You can inflate the so called negative “Varun factor” to whatever extent, facts are otherwise.
***
harkol – Please read up on the Babri episode and let me know if the Hindus did not do enough to negotiate a peaceful settlement. What came off the Chandra Shekhar govt initiated negotiations?
Please also let me know if you think the courts were not responsible for delaying their judgment days prior to the demolition. Plus, what have the courts done till date? What do you expect the courts to do?
Confusing the momentum of history with the pace of constitutionalism is wishful.
mysorehuduga – The BJP got to two seats in ‘85 not because of Congress good governance. Therein lies a lesson for the BJP and a warning for the Congress.
***
Sorry Simple. The Congress is not devoid of identity. Exactly the opposite, it assumes all identities.
A polity can limp on like this but in the long run, will weaken the nation further and give rise to authoritarian rule. This already exists in the Congress.
This is the reason why the Gandhi family is so important for it’s survival. As for this family being democratic, please spare us the fairy tale.
Simple:
> Sangh Parivar does not have any sanction of the people to wield authority over BJP.
I think you are overlooking something here. Sangh Parivar isn’t an entity. I was talking about ideology. Sangh Pariwar’s members are also members of BJP and they do get duely elected to hold party posts.
The influence that is exerted back-and-forth between BJP-RSS is largely ideology related. And that’s an open domain anyway!
Besides, both BJP or Congress at present have very less Internal Democracy. The family decides who should be what within Congress (including themselves) and a coterie of ex-RSS (now BJP) men decide in case of BJP.
This is why I feel we need well defined processes in both these parties. Like grass level election of officials, and something similar to primaries to select the candidates for MP/MLA, a robust mechanism to manage finances etc.
Do not think for a minute Congress is much better than BJP in terms of organization. No one can justify their brand of secularism, which allows them Shabano, Raj Thackery, madani and Owaisi… Allows them to throw out Taslima Nasreen. Their instincts are anti-democratic (how else do you explain throwing away of a senior leader like Veerappa Moily as spokesperson, because he went against Rahul Gandhi line?) Rahul isn’t certainly a elected party chief or spokesperson – Veerappa Moily was!!
Simple:
If you think Identity politics is dead – consider DMK (Tamil Identity), SP (Yadav Muslim Identity), BSP (Dalit Identity). MNS got a very high percentage vote share and MNS+SS (Marati identity) was greater than congress in substantial number of seats. BJP had 18% vote share (Admittedly 10% less than Congress, however not insignificant). Thakur votes still went to Ajit Singh, so did Jharkhand votes. National Conference is only a shade better than PDP. What about JD(S) which retained vokkaliga belt?
Just because 28% people voted for congress, and another 5% voted for Nitish and Naveen, identity politics is dead? What about 60-70% others?
What about Muslim votes? Did even a small portion of Muslims vote for BJP? If not, isn’t that Identity vote? If identity didn’t matter, 18% muslim vote should’ve come to BJP (its national average). That certainly wouldn’t have happened, by BJP’s own admission.
What about Christian votes? Billava Votes, which in Mangalore is said to have gone to Congress?
Perhaps Swing voters (10-20%) didn’t care about Identity, but what about the rest?
Analysis of elections only show that people care about development a lot, even to the extent of dumping their erstwhile identity based support, but that doesn’t mean they have dumped it all together. It is a combination. Their vote can easily return.
Lets not eat everything the Newspaper’s feed us. Identity politics is far from dead in India. I wish India could raise above Identity politics, but for that we need to mature as a society and nation and identity itself should cease to be a major issue. When you have a good portion of Muslims (Certainly Kashmiris) not being entirely sure they belong to India, a good portion of Hindu’s not feeling secure and variety of other minorities and castes having their own grouse, how do you think this won’t be an issue? All that needs is an event that touches a raw nerve!!
So, For it to cease being an issue our polity will need to mature. Our country needs to be developed enough where no one section feels overly wronged. All this will take time, 50-100 years is a conservative estimate.
You can be impatient, but as anyone who has built/run a business knows, building processes and maturity takes time.
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Palahalli:
>let me know if the Hindus did not do enough to negotiate a peaceful settlement.
I do think Muslim leaders could’ve been more generous as Babri means much less to them. However, that’s just my view!
If I don’t like an old stinking toilet in my neighbors plot is facing my living area, and I try to negotiate with him for 20 years, and also follow up with civic authorities and courts to have it removed, and nothing happens, it doesn’t give me a right to go and demolish it.
Best I can do is change the plan of my living room. Or keep trying to convince the neighbor to have it removed or atleast move it at my cost.
I agree our courts are slow, but if we start creating anarchy by taking law into our hands – Where will we stop??
Hindu parties have tried to get a settlement of Babri for perhaps more than a century. 60 years after independence with free vote, maximum they have managed is 25% votes.
So, can a 25% people decide to go demolish anything they don’t agree with?
I am affraid if people use the same yardstick in everyday life – then we are doomed as a nation. :-(
When BJP mustered 30-40% votes and 272 seats, it could’ve passed a law to acquire the Babri and then done everything legally, and asked for a special bench of supreme court to expedite its verdict on any challenge. But, when they haven’t done something lawfully, all other arguments are futile.
Not following law can’t help us mature/grow as a nation.
Gaby has said it best. We need the BJP so the Congress will at least be slightly nervous about there being another national party wanting to loot the country.
The Congress quickly evolved from a semi-religious organisation under Gandhi to a power grabbing, alternately American and Russian sponsored agency. It never minded taking money from the KGB or the U. S. The way we have handled the Bhopal disaster is a big thank you to the U. S. In other words, it did not remain an Indian party. Don’t believe me? Look at the Empress in Delhi and her family.
The BJP is the grandchild or the great grandchild of so many confused entities which did not understand a deconstructed, post-Independent India in which Hinduism was not going to be a major player in its national consciousness. Its progenitors, the Mahasabha, the RSS, and the Janasangh were barely known outside India and they were of no interest to international power brokers and money changers. When the Congress was raking in money from the West and the East with a happy give and take relationship with the Tatas and the Birlas on the homefront, the BJP’s parents were busy counting the annas garnered from scattered raakhi bhandans. Its hatred of labor did not endear it to the mill hands, its Brahminism had no meaning for those who lived on two rotis roasted on an open flame, with two red chilies to make them palatable.
When it did become a party to be reckoned with, it squandered its resources on mindlessly being divisive, driving away decent Hindus who will not entertain the notion that their worst enemies are Muslims or that Hinduism is in danger. It did not have a nationwide constituency, so to speak. The idols it sought to glorify–a Shivaji, a Lakshmibai–were too much, too distant in the nation’s mind which was filled with novel romantic stories of the sacrifices made by Gandhi and Nehru. The murder of Gandhi certainly did not make the party a standard bearer of India’s major, seeming preoccupation or deceitful propaganda about its love of non-violence. The millions of Hindu-Muslim murders at the time of the partition did not spark pro-Hindu conflagrations all across the new nation as the Mahasabha had hoped, denying it the kind of crass power it was hoping for.
Did the party of Hanuman give a damn about its own irrelevance? Had JP not shown up to put Indira in her place and power hungry congresswallahs like Morarji Desai were not willing to trade their Congress jaathi for a comfortable alliance with the Janasangh, the BJP would have been stillborn.
What many posters here do not understand is that India does not care about Hinduism any more than it is troubled by the perceived increase and multiplications of Muslims and Christians. India’s true religionnow is the philistinism of consumerism which finally made headway from the West into our permit raj. By not building a strong enough coalition with the BT, IT and the construction robber barrons, the Homa Havana party assured its status as an “also ran.”
If Yediyurappa and Ananth Kumar can it be its stalwarts in our state, we can imagine the intellectual miasma this party has sunk into. Can we associate one single, respectable intellectual concept with them? However illiterate and torpid we Indians are, we have always admired mind power. Whether we let ourselves be redeemed by it is another issue. What intellectual giant who can touch the hearts and minds of all Indians is there in the BJP? Now wait a minute. Don’t rush to say that the Congress is no different. I know it is not. The issue here is how the BJP is irrelevant to a newly emergent philistine national consciousness.
There are moments when I wish there was a God interested in Indians leading a reasonably happy life. The existence of the Congress and the
BJP gives a permanent pause to that wish.
Even as Rabindranath Tagore was conferring the title Mahatma from his divine perch, he called the country Godforsaken. It is no less so today.
Harkol
1. It is absoutely democratic when Sangh leaders elected by people of India, involve in BJP govt’s policy.
But it is wholly undemocratic when Sangh Leaders NOT ELECTED by people of India, force policy decision on the govt run by BJP. RSS top rung leaders are NEVER elected by the people. It is this top rung which constantly intereferes in govt, by seeking to thrust its limited agenda on the country.
L K Advani has gone on record to tell RSS that they can’t dictate what BJP should or should not do.
2. I never said identity politics is dead. I said parties which played up the identity politics were thrashed at the hustings.
1. SP lost 15 seats and around 4 % vote share.
2. BSP was expected to get 45 seats when you compare its performance to 2006 assembly polls. what it got was a mere 20. So BSP lost badly.
3. In Tamil Nadu, every party is pro Tamil. SO the identity politics is not really a big issue. What was made to be a big issue by hardline parties were the LTTE issue. Those who raked up the LTTE issue were soundly thrashed by the people of TN. MDMK got one miserable seat. And so did PMK. Vaiko has openly praised and supported LTTE on many occasions.
4. MNS of course, did eat substantially into Shiv Sena’s votes. But our elections are based on first past the post system. and lets base all our debates on this platform.
If you want to insist on using your own yardstick, then i must say MAJORITY of people in gujarat are anti-bjp. Because Modi got only 45 or 46 percent votes. and as a result 55 percent are against BJP in Gujarat.
SInce you would not like to hear such precise logic, stick to ‘first-past-the-post-system;
5. NC is the moderate party in J&K. So moderate that they even slept with BJP, during Vajpayee regime. Omar was even a minister. ON the other hand, PDP would nEVER ever travel with BJP. THey are the other extreme, advocatiing separate currency for Jand K, among other hardcore stances.
The people of Kashmir gave a fitting reply to hardliners – all three, Sajjad Lone and Mufti Mohammed Sayeed and BJP….they all got a BIG ZERO in kashmir.
BJP tried to gain mileage from Amarnath Shrine. and it fell flat. People of Jammu have sent a clear signal to BJP – stop playing around with our lives, we just want development and not Hindutva.
PDP also tried to do the same, and it also fell flat.
7. JDS vote share has clambered down from 18% to 13% in Karnataka. And you say their narrow identity based politics is still working? Last year assembly polls they lost 30 seats, and you still believe their identity based politics works?
Look at numbers, Harkol. Numbers. Base your arguments on numbers and not some fancy imagination of yours.
8. Yes Ajit Singh won in western UP. Ajit Singh gained from aligning with BJP. BJP gained NOTHING by aligning wiht Ajit SIngh. BJP got stuck in the 10 seats it got in 2004. For every Ajit Singh who has won, i have given you 10 examples, where parties which base their very existance on identities have lost.
9. Congres is never identified as any single religion/single caste/ single class party. Otherwsie it would not have got 206 seats. The narrower you define your party, the smaller the numbers you get.
10 Congress is not identified as a Billava party or a Christian party. Its laughable that you think so. Ther is no Billava identity or Christian identity for Cong anywhere in the country. it is only in the mind of hardcore right wingers.
11. you are repeatedly insulting the people of India and our country by saying we are not yet mature. Pseudo internet intellectuals with the inability to comprehend and analyse the election results, when results obviously show that ALMOST ALL PARTIES WHICH BASED THEIR POLITICKING ON IDENTITY POLITICS HAVE SVERELY BEEN THRASHED. From PMK to MDMK to PDP to Sajjad Lone to SP to BSP to Madani to LJP.
12. This election results are a tribute to the maturity and intelligence of Indians. they have said enough is enough. we don’t want narrow identity politics to govern our lives. which is why they booted out such parties.
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Palahalli
1. The narrower you define your party, the smaller your numbers. BSP had a narrow ‘dalit’ identity, and they never managed to win UP on their own.
The moment they broadbased their identity – from Bahujan Samaj to Sarvajan Samaj …BSP got a thumping majority. She gave tickets to Brahmins on one extreme and Muslims on the other.
PMK in Tamil Nadu suffers from too narrow an identity. Only Vanniars vote for it..and hence it recieved a severe drubbing.
And so is it with JDS…their party survives only on Gowda identiy. with such narrow identity , they can never hope to win more than 2 -3 seats. they will be forever stuck in a rut.
See what JDU did in Bihar. No tension between Muslims and Hindus. Good development. No HIndutva . Because there was no hardcore Hindutva, the lower class Muslims voted in significant numbers to JDU. Modi was not allowed to step inside Bihar By nitish kumar. Since people appreciated this moderat and inclusive stance of Nitish, they voted in droves to JDU
Imagine, Muslims voting for a JDU-BJP govt. but yes, it has happened in Bihar, Because in Bihar BJP does not practise or is not allowed to PRACTICE the kind of aggressive Hindutva you espouse.
Bihar has been won by BJP-JDU NOT BECAUSE Of Hindutva. But because of DEVELOPMENT and inclusive agenda. Remember this.
BJP’s hardline Hindutva stance will ONLY attract a limited number of well-fed pseudo internet intellectuals. Which is why, BJPs numbers are dwindling. for the third succesive elections, BJP has lost numbers in parliament and the gap between Cong and BJP is increasing.
Simple says “Because Modi got only 45 or 46 percent votes. and as a result 55 percent are against BJP in Gujarat.”
Simple,
Indian national congress got only 27.31 percent votes (compare to 26.53 in 2004) so as per your logic, 72.69 percent are against INC in India.
Btw, congratulation on winning the prediction contest.
Simple:
> L K Advani has gone on record to tell RSS that they can’t dictate what BJP should or should not do.
This is precisely the point. Atleast BJP makes an effort to resist an Unconstitutional post. What about Congress?
>But it is wholly undemocratic when Sangh Leaders NOT ELECTED by people of India
We do not elect the leader directly in India. We elect representatives and they elect the leaders. While sangh leaders are not representatives, if the leaders you chose to elect listen to them, you have the choice of sending them home.
Hust as Gandhi family is not ‘elected’ as leaders of India. They are just leaders of Amethi or Rai Bareily etc. Neither Sonia or Rahul have been elected to make the policy for India. But it is an open secret that they do!!
So, that is why I said Gandhi family is the backbone of Congress and RSS of the BJP.. That’s a fact we have to live with for now.
>f you want to insist on using your own yardstick, then i must say MAJORITY of people in gujarat are anti-bjp.
You very well may! I hold no brief for BJP. :-)
Our system is about who has more legitimate claim to a mandate, rather than a actual mandate! In fact, this is precisely what makes Identity politics feasible. A group having 5+% in a state becomes very relevant to the results and they hold that for political bargaining of some narrow benefit, instead of electing a right party for overall national benefit. If we need to move away from Identity politics, either our system has to change where a minority/casteist vote will not count for much, or the minorities (which describes almost all of us in a political sense) will stop seeing their narrow benefits – which can only happen when politics of deprivation/scarcity is no longer in picture. Reservation is an issue – because there isn’t enough seats or jobs. As long as that situation remains, ones identity will matter.
One incomplete (or even a complete) verdict in one election won’t change that. If it happened for 3-4 elections over 15-20years, then that can be accepted as a pattern.
When in 1999 BJP won more seats than Congress did, India did not become a Hindu Theocracy, as many in press were predicting. India wasn’t voting for a Hindu nation then, and India didn’t reject a Hindu nation today as people are suggesting.
In fact, BJP did as good or as bad as a congress govt… So, what’s the big deal? Under BJP govt. we didn’t have any calamity (man made or otherwise) that hadn’t happened under a congress govt.
Basically both are equally reasonable choices, but depending on situation you select one.
You speak of NC being moderate – That isn’t the point. NC stands for Kashmiri Identity, they support Kashmiri Autonomy etc.
In this election Congress indeed looked better. That doesn’t mean BJP has died or is terminally ill. The question of this forum and what we were discussing was “Will BJP ever come to power” – It most certainly will.
Because if it doesn’t, then we are all doomed to be ruled by a single party govt. (and the resulting arrogance), or a Kichdi like Third Front – Both of which can’t be good for India.
1. I notice you carefully avoided speaking on how, in every state, state after state, from Orissa to kashmir to Tamil Nadu to Rajasthan, ‘the family’ has become the backbone of the party. Family is slowly but surely becoming the backbone of BJP in karnataka. BJP is in power here hardly for a year, and already you have the son of CM asserting himself.
In Rajasthan it is the Vasundhara family which rules. Her mother was a Union Cabinet minister, and Vasundhara’s son is now an MP. they wield enormous power.
2. Sonia Gandhi is the president of the Congress party. If people of India did not like the president, they would not have voted for her party. People want to know who runs the party. it is very important for them, for them to take a decision.
Advani says that RSS should not interfere, but does RSS listen? It is the same Advani who holds parleys with RSS on all important decisions.
If RSS claims it is apolitical, then it shold stop interfering. Else it should come forward and contest elections. If they claim BJP is its political wing, then they should give BJP freedom to do what it wants, instead of constantly sniping at its heels and severly affecting governance.
This backseat ‘unconstitutional, undemocratic’ backseat driving does more harm to the country than good.
But in Congress, the PM derives strength from Gandhi parivar. even if i have to go by your logic, at least sonia is elected in one constituency, but RSS does not even have that fig leaf of cover.
India is full of minorities, so your argument that we should evolve a system where ‘minorities’ won’t count for much. Isn’t convincing or idealistic.
Vanniyars are a minority. Lingayts are minority. Gowdas are minoritys. Muslims are minority. Sikhs are minority. Brahmins are minority.
Every caste is a minority in India..They hardly form 5% of India’s population. Brahmins are under 5%, Sikhs are under 5%. Lingayats are under 5% and so on and so forth. If anybody starts a caste based party, it becomes indeed a minority party.
And by the way, NC is moderate only in comparison to PDP.
ANd Congress is moderate in comparision to BJP
BJP got zero seats in Jammu. and so did PDP in Kashmir
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NKP
Thank you for congratulating me.
yes you are right. Cong does not have the mandate of 72% of India.
What is worse is that BJP does not have the mandate of 82% of India.
Simple – Would you then agree that people all over the world are minorities? That there are no “nations” at all?
Your way of looking at things would reduce entire civilizations and societies to just sole individuals. I, me and myself.
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Harkol – A correction. Hindu Nation is not a theocracy. Hindu Raj or the Hindu State is not going to be one too, for obvious reasons.
Simple:
You speak of RSS as if it is an individual. RSS is made up of Individuals, many of whom are elected MPs (Advani being a case in point).
BJP & RSS are inherently more democratic than Congress. RSS leaders are elected just as BJP leaders. Rahul Gandhi has been saying his priority is to bring in Internal Democracy to congress (if they had it, where is the need to ‘bring’ it??)
BTW, there is nothing unconstitutional about the way Congress or BJP is being run. Constitution doesn’t specify how a political party should be governed. It is their own internal memorandum that specifies it. That memorandum is unenforceable by law.
BJP follows what it’s memorandum says and holds elections at all levels, congress occasionally does. IAC, we are talking about a party which enforced Emergency on India, suspended fundamental rights and locked up entire opposition. It has never apologized for that act. So, why argue about its Democratic credentials?
Both our national parties have a long way to go before they have truly democratic processes. BJP is no better or worse than congress in many respects, but you are the first person to accuse it of being undemocratic, because congress is more democratic! :-)
In any case, you seem to have misread what I wrote – otherwise you’d have noted that my argument is precisely that minorities and Identity politics will continue to count. My thinking is in a mature democracy Identity ideally shouldn’t play a role, but that’ll take a long decades.
This problem is not going to be solved.Nowwe have both terrorists i.e. Hindu Terrorsts and Muslim Terrorsts. Both will try to take the rol of terrorists with out comming to the negosaible Table. Both spreading the hate among the communities.
The people of Kashmir gave a fitting reply to hardliners – all three, Sajjad Lone and Mufti Mohammed Sayeed and BJP….they all got a BIG ZERO in kashmir.
BJP tried to gain mileage from Amarnath Shrine. and it fell flat. People of Jammu have sent a clear signal to BJP – stop playing around with our lives, we just want development and not Hindutva.
Simple on what cloud do you live? Muslims in Kashmir are sepratist as ever. Do you see any pandits moving back. DO YOU? They are scared to be handed over to Pakistan at this point–you just have to see how backward Pakistani side of Kashmir is without government subsidies.
The people of Jammu got tired –and protested–I mean Muslims do not even allow the building of pilgrimage lodges where no one lives but there is only ice and snow, saying that Hindus want to build settlements in Amarnath where there is only snow and ice? Do you see Muslims compromising one bit in Kashmir although they live on heavy government subsidies? Waste of money. Your arguments do not convince anyone. You should go to Jammu and see how angry HIndus are. BJP did not politicize this issue. Hindus are tired of constantly having to give in all the time to people who are incapable of conpromise as in the case of Kashmir.
Long ago the Indian government should have settled people there–now all HIndus have been kicked out of Kashmir valley–this is where false secularism leads.
Palahalli
Vanniyars are a minority in Tamil Nadu. PMK held every govt. at the centre to ransom because it know its core minority vote bank called Vanniyars would time and again vote for their party.
is it ok for Vanniyars who are under 1% of India’s population to hold such enormous influence over Indian politics?
So do jats, a minority inn western UP. NO matter how many times Mr. Ajit Singh changes his party, they continue to vote for him. With his 5-6 MPs in parilament, Ajit can walk away with any ATM minsitry of his choice.
So does the JDS, Gowdas, a minority in India, under 1% have the power to ask for the portfolio of their choice, with their measly 3 MPs.
Harkol
Focus, dear sir. Focus. I am talking only ABOUT ONE SPECIFIC point.
The chief of RSS is not elected by people of India. It is this RSS Chief who wields ‘extraconstituional, anti-democratic’ powers. It is this un-mandated ‘backseat’ driving which is dangerous to the society.
The reste of what u have writtten is blah blah.
Simple – (Nothing personal) Is it allright if I say your family is not really a family because each of your family members’ outward impulses and character is different from one another? Also, you can never have a family because your family members will always be different from each other? Is that ok with you? Oh my God! The word “family” itself seems out of place or shall we say, irrelevant or better still, an illusion?
But you always will be part of a “family in the making”..:)
You also do not understand how the RSS functions. I suggest you become more aware before you write more.