The former India correspondent of the BBC, the Calcutta-born Sir Mark Tully, on 6 December 1992:
“I witnessed… many tragedies often involving people whose names will not be recorded in history, but, asked to recollect one incident I reported for the BBC, I’ve chosen Ayodhya because it was a denial of something which I regard as quintessentially Indian.
“The culture of India is by its very nature accommodating, and for centuries it has allowed all the great religions of the world to make their homes here.
“Hindus traditionally accept there are many ways to god and, as one 20th Century Western scholar has put it, “for the dogmatic certainty that has racked the religions of semitic origin Hindus feel nothing but shocked incomprehension.”
“So India with its Hindu majority should be the last place to find religious fanaticism. It should be an outstanding example of religious pluralism in a world where people of different faiths still so often find it difficult to live with each other.”
Read the full article: Ayodhya mosque destruction
Also read: ‘It’ll be a disaster if India progresses like the West’
Churmuri as usual fishing in troubled waters…as soon as the Liberhan’s report is released/leaked to the media…churmuri decides to rake some muck on the Babri demolition by publishing a quote of Mark Tully of BBC, a very racist channel when it comes to India…now the gora sahibs, are lecturing us how we should be leading our lives…this after 65 years after they have been kicked out of India and their country has been reduced to a banana republic…
beautiful… sir mark finds the mark.
Very soon it will be most obvious as to who actually leaked the report….That’s history.
Especially considering the globally publicized criminal background of the most corrupt Karnataka CJ….(still hanging on, thx to political clout!)
Greed has no limits in India and the impulsive anger of ex-CL Liberhan to the well informed media’s is understandable, indeed.
BTW, if the Cong-I is not smart enough, one can expect the RSS (Shiva-sena, MNS, Ram sena..et al) to fully capitalize on this issue and ride the BJP back to power with new aggressive young, smart turks around. The current old retiree folks involved with the past and already indicted are anyway history!
If burden of pluraism falls on only one religious group than that pluraism is better thrown in a dustbin.
If Fanaticism is just requests of a religious community (based on historical and scientific facts) being ignored by unjust and stubborn denial of other community and which leads to resentment, then definition of Fanaticism needs to be examined.
Sir Tully is absolutely wrong. He would be right in claiming Ayodhya being an attack on Indianness, but, it wasn’t destroyed.
Inspite of repeated attacks by BJP/RSS/Shivsena/MNS etc and its supporters, and their representation of Hinduism as a monolithic entity and to equate that with Indianness, The idea of Inda survives essentially as an anti-thesis of any singular belief, religion or Identity. We are the result of a confluence of various different identities and ideas, and we (i.e Majority of Indians) accept that other ideas have a right to co-exist.
The fact, that BJP and RSS do not find much support from the Young of this country is a proof that their ideology will need to change for them to find prominence and support again.
RSS has some very nice people who are entirely social service minded. It has done some amazing work in public sphere too.
But, its radical idea will never find acceptance of majority of Indian, as those ideas are anti-thesis of India as it has evolved in past 2-3thousand years.
He is right…. our people and the media has to understand this.. and stop minority appeasement…
Neha,
Well said.
Tolerance should be a 2 way street.
Mark is right and saying obvious. But that obvious needs to be stated, when majority is hubris of “sentiment” and denial.
Harkol… good stuff.
Rajesh, may I know definition of appeasement?? Hope it is not that Muslims have pushed economically below dalits is your defination of appeasement or marginalized in public and private employment oppertunities.
Hindu fanaticism is much needed to face the onslaught of monostheistic and totalitarian ideologies exemplified by abrahmic religions and communism. RSS brings a much needed balance and intolerance needed to counter highly organized non-nationalistic fascist forces.
* Tend to agree with Harkol views…
The man who is laughing all the way – Koda. Madhu Koda!
Khan,
Can you answer Neha?
I understand that by our founding principles as a democracy and secular state, we cannot and should not make someone as second class citizen because of their caste or religion.
But that is what all Muslim countries do. And from what little I know even in India, Muslims on an average consider Hindus as ‘non-Muslims’ who have to be converted otherwise not treated equally. Personally I haven’t found this in Muslim people who were/are my acquaintances in their everyday behavior, but when I discuss with them, they have admitted to this fundamental difference to be respected as Muslims.
So wont an attitude of – yeah we are owed equality and all, but we will stick to Muslim ideas of non-Muslims since it is our religion – make it a one way street?
That is – in India the RSS types currently have been consigned to a minority at least when it comes to political power, but how can that ever happen among Indian Muslims?
Hypothetically, if tomorrow Muslims become a majority in a state – what prevents them from becoming a xyz-Sene in reverse? History and looking at any Muslim majority nation does not provide much exception either.
Khan:
The word appeasement is a wrong choice for what Congress and Samajwadi Party does. The right word to choose would be ‘hoodwink’.
Congress has been hoodwinking Muslims for the longest period and SP has been doing it now for 2 decades. Unfortunately, Muslims do tend to fall to these machinations out of the fear of BJP.
Kitapati:
It would be wrong to say that we can counter evil with bigger evil. If Gandhi taught us anything, it is that bravery exists in confronting your attacker and looking him in the eye without hitting him. Not cowing down, but to make him realize how foolish he is.
I know a lot of people think Gandhi’s teachings have no place in modern India, and I tend to agree with them on Gandhi’s economic policies. But, he was spot on in his choice of weapon in struggle. It suits the Indian temperament the best, that’s why he could summon Millions to raise up or quieten down, at his beck and call.
BJP need not always be bad. Under Vajpayee it atleast had some secular bearings. It’ll need to find that for it to be in contention for power in future. That’s very essential for India as its the only alternative we have to Congress.
RSS’s work as recently as with the Tsunami disaster was exemplary, so as an organization it does deserve to be supported – not banned as some suggest, even if one doesn’t agree with their ideology of nationhood.
But, the pariwar certainly need to understand that India will go Pakistan way, if we are to follow the muslim fanatiscism with Hindu fanaticism.
There simply must be a better way!
I don’t buy this theory being peddled that Hindus have somehow been blessed with a broader mind than others. This is a rather convenient untruth.
We have always been as petty and narrow-minded as the next religion (I don’t even need to list examples here). It’s just that we also have this tendency to keep away from the people we despise, which makes for a nice excuse for “tolerance”.
Having said that, this tendency is way better than the one where people go and massacre those they don’t particularly like.
@Neha
>>>If burden of pluraism falls on only one religious group than that pluraism is better thrown in a dustbin.
You are Right, it should not be the case. There is no burden being placed on any religious group, as India don’t have one big major religious group, atleast till now.
@Anon
>>Muslims on an average consider Hindus as ‘non-Muslims’ who have to be converted otherwise not treated equally.
Whats the problem here?? calling a someone who is not a Muslim non-muslim?? What do you mean by not treated equally?? practice of untouchbility like brahmins?? At lleast I have not come across an instance of Muslims doing that. But have seen the patre business with brahmins and lingayats umpteen times @ borewells.
@Harkol
>>Muslims do tend to fall to these machinations out of the fear of BJP.
What are the options in the arithmetic of numbers based politics? Devil and the deep sea couldrum. If BJP is in power we will seegenocide like Gujrat more often. if congress is in power, Muslims will marginalized economically through discrimination and controlled riots.
I know the choice ids tough, but am not sure which one you would have opted.
@ Gokulam 3rd stage, is is not enough if someone allows to to be yourself even if he doesn;t endorse your ideas?
What do you expect from a tolerent society? Surrender their self to accomodate others? if not they where does excuse come from?
The whole world will never accept the same thing… the world is designed to be diverse.. the sanatana culture for long has accepted this fact…
the babri masjid demolition was one of the worst moments in Indian history, and i blame all the BJP,RSS,VHP,Shiv Sena for it…all the terrorists attacks in India whether it was the 92 riots, 93 blasts, godhra, 2002 blast, the train bombings, the Indian Mujhaideen , even 26/11 they all use the babri masjid demolition as an excuse to attack this country. We should ban all political parties that are preaching hindu supremacy or muslim supremacy for that matter. There are bigger problems facing this country that need to be sorted out like poverty,corruption,etc. and we all need to sort this out by coming together
Khan:
It is a myth that more genocides happened during BJP regime. If you see history, you’ll see there is no co-relation and “hamaam mein sub nange hein”.
It is indeed a tough choice (not only for muslims). But I believe muslims should be more vocal in Demanding substance instead of symbolism and cynical manipulation of the parties they’d vote for.
I don’t believe there is much of a choice between BJP or Congress for Hindu’s or muslims. They are equally bad. Being a Brahmin from Mangalore and having seen my entire family for generations vote for BJP without ever questioning them, I know how ironical my advice over here is. But, that’s been my advice to my family ever since Ayodhya. I have voted for BJP when Vajpayee was its leader, but I have voted against it too. So, I refuse to be swayed by the Hindu notion in my vote.
I’ll vote on the basis of good candidate from a national party (BJP or Congress). And I also give some score to party depending on the circumstances nation is going thru. For example, in the last election I felt Manmohan singh deserved support for his courage in following thru on Nuclear deal, and my job was made easy by a good candidate in Sangliana, but in the previous State Election I voted for BJP as Congress didn’t have good leaders or candidates in state.
I think every voter (Muslims included) should be similarly pragmatic, instead of being dogmatic.
In their communications with their leaders, Muslim community should demand reforms in Muslim Personal Law board and Personal law to make it more modern as happened elsewhere in muslim world (Turkey is a good example of modern muslim nation).
1. I feel Muslims should accept a common civil code, as it makes our country truly secular. However, that may be a huge leap, but certainly laws that are 1600 years old, have no place in todays society.
2. Muslims should demand modernization of Madris education, in which English and Modern science and vocational training (any skills that can lead to jobs) should be compulsorily taught. I don’t think Reservations work, but, positive support to Muslim education institutions which will impart cheap modern education will go a long way.
3. I feel muslim leadership should dump any unnecessary controversies. For example, I do not support the demand that Muslim girls should be allowed to wear Burkha in Secular institutions. Having seen women move around without a Burkha in Saudi Arabia, I don’t understand why this should be a big deal. They could cover their head with a scarf if needed, as is done in many countries. Similarly, I feel Muslim objections to Vande mataram as silly and unnecessary, as their leaders had accepted the current version of Vande Mataram in 1940s, after expunging a few stanzas that had religious connotation. Don’t see a point in making it issue now.
4. Single biggest contribution Muslims can make to national integration is by not making Muslim identity a factor in their voting. If Muslim’s start consistently demonstrating that they won’t be swayed by stupid non-issues, then BJP will loose all incentive to play on some Hindu sentiments.
When parties & Religious organizations realize the voters won’t be swayed by stupid issues, they’ll stop using them.
Anonymous Guy: It is wrong to say there are no Secular Muslim state. Turkey is an excellent example of what an Secular muslim republic can be. There are many other : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_secularism
However, It is true that almost 80-90% of Muslim Majority nations tend to be theocratic with Sharia law instead of secular law. Why even India has some form of Sharia (thru Muslim Personal law), which I believe is a disgrace.
Some of the gulf countries do have atrocious policies for non-muslims. In Pakistan the Hindus were persecuted and driven out of the country as a result the Hindu percentage reduced from about 30% in combined pakistan to about 2% as per last census. However, after the formation of Bangladesh, the drop in Hindu’s in Bangladesh hasn’t been very significant.
In India, however, the Muslim population has slightly grown. I feel it shows majority Hindus to be very tolerant people. But, it may not be a good trend going into the future for entirely different reason:
Muslim population of India grew from little over 10.1% in 1951, to about 12.8% in 2001!! Before you start jumping in to the conclusions about Lack of muslim birth control, consider this – The increase in Muslim population was significant post Bangladesh influx in 1971. I believe this tells us that we have a bigger problem than birth control – of Illegal Immigration, which we need to stop even more urgently.
I think there is simple solution. Make demolishing masjid, mandir, church, temple legal. Also, keep a gun duel competition between loyal people of competing faiths. Once you get rid of dump people and places which make them dumb, sane people of the world can enjoy life for what it is.
An interesting news from Germany:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8374396.stm
“Germany is drawing up a new contract to bind new immigrants to the country’s values, officials say.
Newcomers should learn German and uphold values such as freedom of speech and sexual equality, said Commissioner for Immigration Maria Boehmer.
In return, immigrants could expect “help and support”, Dr Boehmer said. ”
Of course this applies to immigrants who want to enter and live in Germany.
But freedom of speech and sexual equality is something everyone seems to hate here – bet it RSS/xyz-Senes or Islamic fundamentalist types.
Vishwa, you and I are saying the same thing. The motivation you ascribe to this “tolerance” is however not the same as what I said.
We are “tolerant” because we tend to shun those we don’t like rather than go butcher them.
Khan,
The brahmins are learning. They have a process of changing with the times and learning since their philosophy is not fixed. Many of those who have a secular and open minded outlook are Brahmins and Lingayats and others. After all Congress cannot defeat RSS etc. just by Muslim votes.
Christians in India too have a secular outlook by and large.
However I get the message here that Muslims can indulge in their religion at the cost of country, constitution or secularism; while it is bad if others do it at their cost?
So if Muslims are a majority they can switch over to theocracy and treat non-Muslims as non-Muslims? A Hindu or Christian can expect to be treated as a kafir and be secondary citizens like in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere?
When it comes to religion, why Muslim terrorism first which provokes others.
I havent met Muslims who are yet to answer this without skirting the issue and throwing blame back at Brahmins, Banias, Americans, Jews, Christians etc. Same with you.
Neha’s statement holds:
“If burden of pluraism falls on only one religious group than that pluraism is better thrown in a dustbin.”
And this one religious group for now is Islam.
If the Muslims behave in a ghetto way, definitely they should expect to be marginalized.
And like in the past they cannot expect some invaders from outside to butcher their way the country and help them be rulers again.
Anonymous Guy & Neha:
If only one religious group continues to eat food, and everyone else starts eating from sewage, would it be right for that religious group to dump eating food and start consuming sewer instead?
What is essentially right is right irrespective of whether others follow it or not. Besides, The right thing to do would be to resolutely pursuade and convince people to not continue with wrong way.
AG: It isn’t only muslims behaving in Ghetto way. It has been observed worldwide that Minority groups tend to live in Ghettos – Largely out of Insecurity. However, over long periods they do move out of the ghettos. But, it needs long nourishment of pluralistic values.
I agree that quite a lot of muslim countries are theocratic, quite a lot of Christian Countries are Theocratic too!! Till 2007, the only other Hindu Majority nation – Nepal – Was Theocratic too. There are Buddhist Theocracies too.
The bottom line is about 150 years back majority of the nations in the world were theocracies. Slowly more and more nations are becoming Secular Democracies, and that is a good thing as world is rapidly getting globalized.
So, here is a thought – Indian Muslims are Indians. We can’t wish them away, so our best option is to Co-Opt them. Try and get them to leave behind offensive practices thought to be mandated by religion. Reform the religion without compromising basic tenets of their religion. It is not impossible, it’ll just take some time, and perhaps some good leadership.
Consider this – If we can have Turkey, a devout Muslim but secular nation – that is as liberal and secular as any other nation in the world, Islam and Secular Democracy can’t be mutually exclusive. Neither can Islam and modernity be mutually exclusive. It is matter of time.
Over 150 years ago Hindus started dumping unacceptable practices within their religion, Christians & Catholics had started doing so perhaps about 250 years back, Buddhists & Jews have done so too.
Muslims have taken longer, but will get there…
All are viewing the issue here through the same tunnel view as any other cheddi, that is prejudice.
Take Harkol for that matter, he list the same old common civil code, madrasa, blah blah…. when am raising the economic issue. Why don’t Indian state stop discrimination , then 90% of the economic backwardness will be solved. But raising the non issue and some half backed suggestion of what “I FEEL” is what it is all about.
Take his other ridiculous “Muslims leadership” as if some species is there by that. What we have is every political party has chosen their own puppet, even BJP, how is it Muslim should dump them???
OHHH another gem, “national integration” …ayo do you think Muslim are not integrated??? oh you mean Voting, my bad, but why stop at Muslims, what about Brahmins like you …..always vote BJP, yadavs, kurmis, reddys, jats….. what about these groups?? Lingays any one…they also needs to do their bit of national integration….bloody voted like sheep’s for BJP.
@Anon
Bloody pick one name, how inconvenient is that if more than one of you are posting.
Muslims behave like Ghetto, pray tell me what is ghetto and what behavior classify it as that. I bet you never heard of basavangudi, malleswaram, etc…
>>>And like in the past they cannot expect some invaders from outside to butcher their way the country and help them be rulers again.
What exactly do you smoke…. pls share it here.
Khan,
One guy only.
Makes it difficult for your one-track mind to form a mental image right?
Harkol,
I agree with that. In the long run things will be alright – as you said there is no other way if we see history.
Khan saheb: You are being unnecessarily Touchy. Most of my suggestions may be half baked, but, they are certainly not raw, or without basis. If you can think up better baked solutions, I welcome them. :-)
We aren’t living in a ideal society – without inequalities. I do think that BJP is largely a Brahminical party. But, I just ignore that in my voting decisions and focus more on the economic issues. As I said, my narrow identity doesn’t define my voting or support.
So, When I say “national integration”, I am referring to the need for all people to raise above their narrow identities. I said the same thing about Bal/Raj thacekerey’s linguistic antics.
> Why don’t Indian state stop discrimination
Can you point a specific instance of Discrimination by the state?? In law or in policy?
I have read about Sachar report showing Muslims to be backward. But, then there are many other non-muslim sub-sections which are backward too. And that needs to be corrected by better education, which will leads to better opportunity. S
So, it can’t be your case that talking about purely religious education madrasas impart Isn’t an economic issue? Why is it “blah blah”???
And, Muslim backwardness hasn’t been shown to be due to any specific, targetable discrimination by Indian state against Muslims.
I can see discrimination against Muslims in Social sphere though. Finding a rental space in Mumbai/Bangalore for some of my friends has been so difficult, and I can relate to that. But that’s not state policy.
>”same old” issues of civil code etc.
Just because an issue is old does it become irrelevant? If we want secularism, then state should disregard religion while making law – that’s the very definition of secularism.
Even RSS can be right on some issues, though its motivations may be flawed.
Framers of our constitution and our founding fathers made Uniform civil code a Directive principle. One of our founding fathers, and a member of drafting comittee of constitution is Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad, who was born in Mecca, was a scholar of Islam. Maulana Azad supported and argued for secular laws for India. Many other muslim scholars in Constituent assembly did that too. Considering the sensitive situation post-partition, Maulana Azad supported the idea of a Muslim personal law as a temporary measure, before India moves to a full-blown Uniform Civil Law.
Our constituent assembly had much larger representation than proportional Muslim population of India at the time. The Constitution wasn’t adapted in a day, it was deliberated for over 2 years and 2,473 amendments were made to the first draft.
After all the deliberation, Maulana Azad along with other muslim founding fathers signed our constitution. They had accepted that India should move towards a Uniform Civil code.
Are you saying all these Muslim founding fathers had Tunnel vision too?
I equally support the removal of Hindu Law. It is so archaic and needs to be shelved for modern, universally accepted laws that treats everyone the same.
Muslim Leadership:
It is whom you choose to support that makes him the leader. If large enough number of Muslims put up a leader who speaks for issues other than irrelevant symbolic stuff, then that’s the leadership that can bring on changes.
In Hinduism, Gandhi, Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Vinobha Bhave, Chinmayananda, Vivekananada brought about such reforms – because, Hindus supported them in large numbers and made them their leaders, allowing them to redefine the Hindu cultural practices. That brought about the change by banning Sati, animal sacrifice, practice of untouchable etc. Maulana Azad brought in modern thinking into muslim leadership. I am sure there are such leaders even today.
So, Why the concept of Muslim leadership that ‘ridiculous’ sir? Leaders are whom people follow in large numbers and call your representative. If they are of bad caliber, then the blame lies with us. There are Muslim leaders, elected through muslim votes, so, they are indeed representatives of Muslims. And Muslims can certainly bring to bear pressure on them to take care of their economic needs, instead of parochial ones?
I think Majority of Indians (including Indian Muslims) are not dogmatic and would be open to reforms, and with right leaders that can be achieved.
But if I am wrong, and majority of Indian Muslims do think there aren’t any Muslim practices that need any reform then it’d tragic, for there will be another sachar report 50 years from now.
Khan Sir: One more thing about leadership. Pakistanis (in US) I had met always crib about the quality of leadership in their country. I had told them this – You get the leadership you struggle for.
India rose up against emergency the moment it was declared. Almost entire opposition was jailed, or was on a war path. There were many news papers who stopped editorials in protest. Indiragandhi was kicked out of power as a result.
Pakistani’s in contrast, always welcomed the Military rulers, going against the priciples of Democracy. They never consistently supported growth of Institutions and even undermined the initial quality leadership they had by ignoring the guiding principles set to them by Jinnah. They always fought their dictators after they could inflict maximum damage.
As I said – We get the Leadership we struggle for, this what we deserve.
Khan Sir: I forgot to mention, why Civil code is also an Economic issue. One of the biggest problems we have at present is our inheritence laws. It differs from religion to religion (even between caste within Hindu religion). In fact, Hindu Undivided Family inheritence is a single largest contributor to the confusion in our land title deeds.
The only way we can clean up that mess is to have singular, clear, simple to understand civil laws.
We would probably be better off with the Uniform Civil code. But like all self-created messes in this country – who will bell the cat? More importantly how? Nobody wants to give a quarter, be it the fundamentalist Hindus or the Muslims or the leftists who claim to represent labour. And we dont have (or cant afford) a Kemal Ataturk to take on these forces too.
>>Can you point a specific instance of Discrimination by the state?? In law or in policy?
Do you know even today Muslims are not hired in RAW, IB or military which is strategic?
Do you know from 47-“65 not a single muslim was enrolled in UP police?
Do you know that 4% Brahmins are occupying >50% of SC judges since independence? Don’t start by saying brahmins are brainy, hardworking blah blah…
>>Muslim Leadership:
Do you know that there are except for kashmir, a muslim leader cannot expect to win, without major party support, which also means serving the interest of the party againt the interest of community. So all we have is ahmed patel and salman khurshids…… good with leaders of the party with nill support from the community.
Hundu undivided family
The great tax jaziya of our time, isn’t it?
Ama Khan,
It takes a lot of effort to uplift yourself and your community from the economic morass you guys are in. It also needs what is called a proper education by which I mean not Madrasa Education which your community is used to. So move your bottom and also tell your zaat bhai’s/behens to do some introspection instead of blaming everybody and their uncles for your predicament. And last but not the least stop listening to the friday sermons by those friendly neighbourhood mullah. He does not know a rats behind about uplifting you guys, he is still living in the good old 7th century and is trying to pull you all in to the same time frame….being in 7th century you only have one recourse…to do what the last prophet of allah did,which is to loot and freeloading…which I am sure you guys are already doing.
Kadeeja Bibi,
‘…being in 7th century you only have one recourse…to do what the last prophet of allah did,which is to loot and freeloading…which I am sure you guys are already doing.’
That’s hitting below the belt. Please refrain from that. Khan would follow suit with some choicest things to say about our myriad Gods and then it would be free for all.
Harkol, Khan and others are indulging in an issue based debate and that’s healthy. Making inflammatory comments about Prophet is certainly not the way to further an argument in a civil way. Please don’t kill the discussion.
When we start looking at the ‘loot and freeloading’ that has been going on in our country since 1947, it would be little imprudent to blame a community with 10-12% population with little access to levers of power.
We all know who hoards sugar, who winks when contraband is smuggled into the country, who ‘lays’ a road, who builds a dam while building a small fortune for himself. Infact the list is endless and mind you we are 84-86% of this country’s population which ranks spectacularly high on corruption index.
>Hundu undivided family
>The great tax jaziya of our time, isn’t it?
Care to elaborate? I didn’t get this at all.
***
Kadeeja: In life two things are most sensitive – Money & Faith – which are the root causes of most of the conflicts. Let us not abuse either.
The discussion here is largely how we can improve India, or Indian-ness.
>Do you know even today Muslims are not hired in RAW, IB or military which is strategic?
Searching the Net shows IB and Military has Muslims, though their percentage is not proportional to their population (but then defense forces don’t have proportional representations from various states/sections anyway).
We did have a Muslim heading DRDO, which is as sensitive and strategic organization as one can imagine. And I personally know a few Muslim employees in LRDE, DRDO and NAL all strategic organizations.
It turns out you may be right about RAW, and that’s really disturbing. Wonder what the govt. explanation for this is. I am sure this can be challenged in a court by any eligible muslim candidate. If this is an active discrimination by govt. it’ll have absolutely no defense per laws of India.
>Don’t start by saying brahmins are brainy, hardworking blah blah…
I don’t believe that given a large enough universal set, any specific subset will have better physical or mental capabilities. :-)
But, Brahmin domination of intellectual domains in India is a reality. But its reason lies in the historical advantage, not due to post-independence discrimination. On the contrary, GOI has done laws that can be construed as discriminatory to Brahmins.
An absolutely egalitarian society is impossible. Inequalities can certainly be reduced to a great degree through better education, which is why I always keep saying – instead of reservations, Govt. should do massive spending on primary education, open up higher education to create capacity for educating everyone. And then subsidize higher education for backward classes (Irrespective of religion or caste) so that only rich don’t get high education.
Over 2-3 generations, we will be able to catch up with US this way. But, It simply won’t happen in our lifetime.
Muslim Leadership: It is wrong to think that Muslims should be able to elect their own community folks to bring up their genuine interests. That has been the trouble of Identity politics and that won’t take us anywhere. i.e. Brahmins vote for a brahmin and Gowdas to a Gowda and Muslims to a Muslim. If we voted that way, the representatives have least incentive to work for our unity and development, and will only work to divide and keep us down.
What can be done is to make a group persuading progressive policies and pressurize who ever is the elected leader. When leaders understand narrow/irrelevant issues aren’t going to win votes, they will stop using them and start to look at more progressive agenda.
Churumuri and Chindu are pseudo-secular.Their job is bashing Hindoos and praising Abrahamic faiths.
Khan,
Karnataka,Mysore and Hinduism are bad.We agree with you.Islam,Urdu and Pakistan are best.Thank you for your wisdom.We will convert,do circumcision,accept the kalima and go to Makka for Haj.
The Prophet (PBUH) and Arabia are the best.
Anshuman:
>it would be little imprudent to blame a community with 10-12% population with little access to levers of power.
Totally with you. Most of our problems aren’t due to any one community. But, my suggestions (not blame) for change is only with the focus and attention that muslim demands for some issues.
Every socio-economic group has some political capital – they can highlight an issue or two by leveraging their collective voting strength. In India each 1% vote share counts for a lot providing substantial political capital to a chunk of people.
If this political capital (energy) is spent unwisely, on issues that are irrelevant or plain wrong, then the capital gets eroded. It is best utilized for the most essential bread-butter issues, which Khan has nicely brought out –
Example:
http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2006/11/raw-muslims-and-sikhs-need-not-apply.html
If the Muslim groups spending political captial on issuing fatwas against Vande Mataram spent the same Capital on this issue, a great deal of moral & Legal pressure can be built on government to remove what seems like a illogical, unjustified and unlawful restriction against Muslim appointments to RAW. I can’t see how anyone can object to a perfectly rational demand such as this.
Anshuman, Harkol and Khan, enough of this apologetic stuffs. All of you want religions to thrive, each only theirs. The problem is not just 10-12% of the people, problem IS the RELIGION itself. Why should Muhammed or anybody else be outside the scope of criticism? Go through the history once. The moment you start gathering people under a faith, you have the recipe for disaster. Religion has to be confined to your home, completely private. That way it is atleast not dangerous, though a waste of time.
Abhi,
Good question – Why is Muhammed outside the scope of criticism?
That too when each religious side in the debate wants to point out everything about other religions.
Religious fanatics want to give all sorts of criticism about others, but when it comes to their own religion, a mere cartoon with cause them to send out brain washed foot soldiers to burn newspaper offices, bomb buildings and in general go on a rampage killing bystanders.
The clear mark of a fanatic is that she/he will maintain that basically their own religion is in some way superior and try to point out a hundred and one things about others.
Once a person of another religion has been marked as separate, it becomes so easy to treat her/him as an outsider and then rape/kill/use them in any inhuman way as possible. For example, people from Pakistan/India, we are more similar to each other than someone from say USA or Europe, yet we are easily able to treat each other as sworn enemies and hate and kill each other so easily. Once we have branded even our relatives as ‘outsiders’ by religion, it because so easy to hate them.
But I guess that is human behavior caused by how we have evolved – we have to defend what we ‘believe’ in – same for you and me.
It probably does makes good sense to gang together as religious groups, it gives us better chances of survival in the long run (or at least it used to a few hundred years back when we didnt have much to rely on besides religion). And that is why we get so worked up when we discuss it. But that is another question.
So maybe we should forget trying to discuss or debate things with someone whose only aim is to convert you to his religion or otherwise just wants to prove that his religion is in some way superior and others have many problems. It will only make the close minded religious person more close minded, while possibly sowing the seeds of hatred in our minds too too.
***
BTW the Swiss voters have approved a ban on Minarets in their country:
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2009/11/29/world/news-us-swiss-minarets.html?_r=1&hp
Maybe this is the way to go – whatever happens in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan against other religions will be paid in return in Europe too. Germany has also started introducing laws specifically aimed at curbing Muslim immigrants taking too much for granted.
BTW the Swiss voters have approved a ban on Minarets in their country:
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2009/11/29/world/news-us-swiss-minarets.html?_r=1&hp
Maybe this is the way to go – whatever happens in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan against other religions will be paid in return in Europe too. Germany has also started introducing laws specifically aimed at curbing Muslim immigrants taking too much for granted.
Abhi:
>Anshuman, Harkol and Khan, enough of this apologetic stuffs. ll of you want religions to thrive, each only theirs.
On the contrary – I don’t follow any faith system. I am an atheist, who views all religions as part of human inheritance.
>Why should Muhammed or anybody else be outside the scope of criticism?
I have told my reason – Faith is too sensitive to be pillaried. You can question a practice, but not faith itself. It is too personal. It is the question of what do we gain by criticizing any of them? The answer is – Nothing.
They were all creatures of their time and tried to bring in rules(which is what a codified religion is) in the lack of any other written ‘law’. We gain nothing by criticising them, other than hurting others. We can take the good parts of their teaching and dump parts that aren’t suitable to modern world anymore.
>Go through the history once.
Impossible to do that in ones life time… Too vast. :-)
>The moment you start gathering people under a faith, you have the recipe for disaster.
No argument there, except Human beings have evolved from disaster to disaster. Communism, Capitalism, Socialism, democracy, constitutionalism or even republics are all belief systems, which are also recipes for disaster.
These are all systems/frameworks thought and built for civilizing the society, and are all in a constant state of flux. Not having them is even bigger disaster – for we’ll be going back to the time of cannibalism.
Abhi: Just curious. Would you recommend repealing the constitution?
It is a codified system that gathers people under one faith – Faith in the republic of India, with its own rules and practices. How is it different from a religion?
Anonymous Guy:
>BTW the Swiss voters have approved a ban on Minarets in their country:
Yes, I have read about it. It’ll be interesting to see how this develops. It is unlikely that Swizerland will adopt such measures, eve though voters approved it.
Lot of people think democracy is about majority, but the concept of Democracy is tightly coupled with the concept of ‘republic’. If it isn’t then Democracy just becomes ‘majoritarianism’ (or even Mobocracy)
So, even if majority votes against a particular issue, if there is no rational and the vote itself is against the constitution, then the majority can’t force it on minority. If they did, then it becomes tyranny.
Harkol,
tyranny? Well, that’s exactly what might happen if Islam becomes majority in Swiss.
*hiker*
the answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind… from pakistan, saudi arabia…
*harkol*
sir, you have no idea what “mobocracy” means if you believe that a voter referendum must produce unacceptable results.
all right-thinking folks must commend those swiss voters for taking early and peaceful preemptive action against a cancer that seeks to kill every other culture, even when that culture is sympathetic to it.
Harkol – Good to know you are an atheist, I am one too, just of the assertive kind (or as Richard Dawkins jokingly put it, a militant atheist). I think that’s very much needed in a world dominated by religious nuts of assorted colors.
Religion is a premedival concept. It is no more needed in the modern world. We are no more a tribal society to guard ourselves from other tribes. AG – It has no evolutionary advantage anymore. It just does not have any relevance in a society guided by science and rationality. If you need any spiritual help, you can always keep it inside home. There is no need to make it a public event by gathering a million people and create mob hysteria.
Why do you think religion is beyond criticism? Why is it too personal? Because it is not used to criticism. Infact, religious people have almost made it impossible of anybody to be critical of it without being offensive and branded as a bigot. You need to make a cartoon of Muhammed (or Jesus or Krishna) every now and then, atleast so that it gets used to it, atleast when you are getting killed because of it. Religion is getting a respect which it simply does not deserve by any standards.
I don’t think your parallel of Capitalism, Communism, Socialism etc with religion has any merit. You CAN critisize Communism/Capitalism when you wish. No one says its PERSONAL to me and you will have to get killed for that. Also, none of it are faith/belief. They are based on observational facts. More importantly, they are flexible, can be changed and none ask for unquestioning obedience. Even Carl Marx’s communist manifesto. Amount of criticism they undergo is nowhere close to religions.
And you think we would be eating each other but for religions? Quite an entertaining thought :)
About Swiss banning Minartes, symbols of Islamic culture, I think its a good thing. Multiculturalism is a good thing, provided all cultures are different but equal, which Islam is clearly not. Western culture, one which is based on science, rationality, questioning and egalitarianism is better than respect, obedience based eastern culture and most certainly better than a cult like Islamic way of life. If Islam can not blend with a better culture, rather it tries to impose itself on west, why not nip it in the bud?
To be sure, Indians – Hindus and Muslims – get the same treatment in Australia, Malaysia etc.
“Abhi: Just curious. Would you recommend repealing the constitution?”
Yes, if its required. They are not cast in stone or recited by all knowing god. And thank god for that. Did you know that our own constitution has undergone 94 amendments thus far? Constitution or any other modern law system does not have fixed, absolute morals like the religions have. You do not stone LGBT to death anymore by law.
Hiker,
one small change in your semantics replace “might” with “will”
Look at this video of Zakir Naik to get an idea of what might happen if Islam becomes majority.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plyS8sIUjmQ
Such arrogance!
Three cheers to people of Switzerland.