Kancha Ilaiah, professor of political science at Osmania University, Hyderabad, and author of Why I am not a Hindu, in The Times of India:
“Hinduism is in a state of crisis, facing a kind of civil war within. The primary reason for this is the stranglehold of the varnashram system which keeps 750 million Hindus subjugated and humiliated. These are the Dalits, tribals and the backward classes. Hinduism has failed to convince them that they are part of it, despite the fact that they were the carriers of all science and technology for centuries.
“Hinduism is the only religion that has failed to negotiate and engage with reason and science. No social reformer, except [Jyotiba] Phule and [Babasaheb] Ambedkar, challenged the caste system. Other religions are now competing to win over these people hence there is an imminent explosive crisis.”
Read the full interview here: ‘Edit all spiritual texts’
churumuri 
Do three questions make an interview?
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Unlike Islam, anybody can criticise Hinduism in any manner and form he lines and go scot free in India — the land of 100 crore Hindus.
Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God.
A thing created by God cannot be destroyed.
Swami Vivekananda wrote:
There are these eternal principles, which stand upon their own foundations without depending on any reasoning, even much less on the authority of sages however great, of Incarnations however brilliant they may have been. We may remark that as this is the unique position in India, our claim is that the Vedanta only can be the universal religion, that it is already the existing universal religion in the world, because it teaches principles and not persons.
If you want to be religious, enter not the gate of any organised religion. They do a hundred times more evil than good, because they stop the growth of each one’s individual development…. Religion is only between you and your God, and no third person must come between you. Think what these organised religions have done! What Nepoleon was more terrible than those religious persecutions? If you and I organise, we begin to hate every person . It is better not to love, if loving only means hating others. That is no love. That is hell! If loving your own people means hating everybody else, it is the quintessence of selfishness and brutality, and the effect is that it will make you brutes.
Mahatma Gandhi – the Father of indipendent of India, wrote : ” Hinduism is not an exclusive religion. In it, there is room for worship of all the prophets of the world. It is not a missionary religion in the ordinary sense of the term. Hinduism tells everyone to worship God according to his own faith or dharma, and so it lives at peace with all religions. A man may not believe even in God and can still call himself a Hindu. Hinduism is a relentless pursuit after Truth and if today it has become moribund, inactive, irresponsive to growth, it is because we are fatigued and as soon as the fatigue is over, Hinduism will burst forth upon the world with a brilliance perhaps unknown before. ………. Hinduism is not a religion. It is a way of life. Many who do not practice formal religion are nearer to this way of life than some who do.
As perceived by Kancha Ilaiah, professor of political science at Osmania University, Hyderabad, and author of Why I am not a Hindu, Hinduism is not in a state of crisis, facing a kind of civil war within. Instead the Hindu religion is most democratic in the world it can accept any changes for the good and just like ‘Atma’ it is undestructable.
Hinduism is a Gift of God for Humanity and it cannot be destroyed.
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Sridhar
What is your quibble with ? the word ‘interview’?
Or Mr. Kancha’s thoughts?
If you have a probem with Kancha’s thoughts, then are you saying caste system, which treats certain sections of the people as inferior, does not exist?
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“Hinduism is the only religion that has failed to negotiate and engage with reason and science.”
This dude is under which rock and smoking what?
Which religions have done that!?
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kancha ilaiah is neither a historian nor a scholar of hindu dharma.
his comments outside of his area of expertise (if any such exists) have shock value but no credibility. besides, his attitude is that of a bigot (rather than a scholar): i can understand why he does not claim to be hindu.
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Caste system alone is not Hinduism. Agreed these evil practices crept in. And the authors statement saying Hinduism is the only religion which does not go hand-in-hand with science is the most ridiculous statement ever. Its the one religion where there is no distinction between religion and science. In pure Hinduism, everything is scientific. Yoga, Ayurveda, ancient astronomy etc are all contributions of Hinduism. Major rishis of Hinduism were are all big scientists – Kashyapa, Aryabhatta, Bhaskaraacharya to name a few. Blind beliefs crept in later. Yes, these blind beliefs and caste system needs to be eliminated. But anti-Hindu media houses like this, and other so-called “professional media” are all engaged day and night in maligning the name of Hindu religion. Just so that they can aid the mindless conversions. And our politicians too want this conversions so that they can win votes on basis of the vote-bank. The person who has written this article is either very very dumb in these matters or has written it with vested interests of some sort.
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Hindu – the persian word should die.
quote: No social reformer, except [Jyotiba] Phule and [Babasaheb] Ambedkar, challenged the caste system…..
What the f***? What did we do a milleniums earlier?
Andhra dodrige Telugu is nothing but Kannada+Urdu antha hege heluvudu?
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Agree with NAWN. Religion is not expected to engage with reason and science. It is expected to enhance faith – whether in god or providence or that pigs will fly!!!
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That quote about Hinduism being “the only religion that has failed to negotiate and engage with reason and science” is one of the most retarded things Ilaiah has said so far… which is saying a lot.
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I have nothing to say about “Hindu religion”, but this is really sad.
Despite the fact that they were the carriers of all science and technology for centuries.
But this has been replaced by “merit” people, who have not had a productive thing for centuries maybe. That can be seen in the results of DRDO, aka, Arjun tank since 1970’s, LCA since 1983 and counting, trishuls, nags and glorious other dreamed up projects…. by the guys selected on merit. What merit they only know.
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Hmm this “civil war within” seems to be rather low key compared to the Shi’a vs Suni conflict in Islam or the Catholic v Protestant Christian conflict in N. Ireland.
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Dear Simple,
I have nothing against the honourable professor’s views. He has a right to express what he feels.
However, the ‘interview’ reads like a few soundbites heard on the sidelines. At best, these are excerpts from the professor’s speech that the reporter noted down. A fairly cavalier way to construct a debate on a serious issue. This is not an interview, there are many good ones posted on Churumuri itself.
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Ka(n)cha Illaiah’s usual rant amuses and shocks no one except himself. For the record this guy is closet chrisitian and his diatribe against hinduism is understandable.
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In karnataka Vokkaligas,Lingayats,Idigas and Kurubas are also backward caste according to government?
Ask any of these people whether they feel backward? They will laugh and start boosting about their caste identities.
So stop bitching about backward caste as oppressed.They are oppressing forward caste people than other way round.
Backward caste people are ruling india everywhere and are proud of their hindu identity.Stop putting us into that oppressed column.
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Professor Illaiah and his ilk–howdayya, allayya, etc.,–have been making a comfortable life for themselves by demonizing Hinduism. If there were no profit motive behind their often justified analysis of that religion, one might be tempted to engage in a rational discussion with them.
Hindusim is so elusive as a concept that each one of us, defender or detractor, has to first construct a version of it and then proceed to demonise it or glorify it. Many former Dalits, economically speaking, have left their unhappy, birth situated conditions behind them, while most people they speak for continue to be hamstrung by lack of education and exploitation by their own kind. Just look at all the self-styled prosperous Dalit politicians, academics, and litterateurs among us. I am especially tickled by a union minister who cannot get away from the bedevilment of the lefthand/righthand dichotomy practiced in his own subcommunity and a Kannada Praadhikaara chief now promoted or demoted to Lord of Kannada Pustaka Praadhikaara by an ostensibly Hindu fundamentalist outfit, the same outfit that coopted a mindless former Christian DGP to run for Parliament. Then there are the Dalit academics who have done nothing to quell the objections raised about their performance as intellectual laborers in Maisuru as well as Bengaluru vichitravidyaanilayagalu. Incidentally, would Dinakaran still be able to masquerade as a jurist were he not a former Dalit?
It doesn’t matter what eventually will happen to Hinduism. It will live publicly only as long as it serves a purpose for those who are in power in India or want it. (There are many Hindus who practice their religion quietly and conscientiously in a noble way in their homes without inflicting harm on anybody.) What does matter is that this so-called amritik fiddlefaddle has become the handmaiden of mindless sectarian gurus and politicians.
All of this is yet another example of middlemen profiting from the capital called religion. The example includes anti-Hindus like Illaiah too. The greatest gift of globalisation is that it teaches us to commodify everything. India, never having been a cohesive nation, has never had a homegrown ideology to resist predation by powerful outside forces. Hinduism, no less militaristic than Islam or Christianity, itself came to South Asia as a predatory force.
Let us learn to break the nexus of religion and economics. I would like to hear what Aachaarya Illaiah has to say on this topic.
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Chris,
Low key –
Well everything is a low key here- a child from assam should write a letter to ManMohan Singh for 40 lakhs. No other means would have got those funds for that school.
TATA has a low key for the industrial wastes. He never talks about any harmthat industry can do. How can he when Bhopal gas was a dream for Nehruvian society.
He just wants Singur.
The whole of Karnataka has to wait for Kannada Medium from decades while even today Chief justice just shifts the issue till Febraury as if we are talking his keep’s birthday. Kannada is a low key.
Do you feel alien when such amount is spoken in the country of most beggars. Come on how can you! You are ofcourse Indo European. We respect you a lot. And of course Sonia. Everyone of bloody Indian is a low key here.
As Nrupatunga says You will surely get a Non Resident non Indian status surely which may become a majority in later years. While his oppressed socalled upper castes by him who favour whites and continuously divide country with Krishna’s proclamation would surely join hands with you with Raasa Leele and Rajneesh Osho. Good luck.
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There goes Kancha again. An intellectual whose mind is totally closed, and his vision is blinkered. I really wonder, being a Buddhism, which doesn’t recognize Varn ashram, why Kancha keeps talking about the victim hood. If majority hindus really wanted to convert to other religions, Buddhism was available for about 2500 years, and exists even today.
The reality is – He can’t see beyond the caste system and keeps saying everyone has failed them. But, consider the facts:
-> India became independent and offered universal franchise, without seperate electorates or restrictions on any disadvantaged sections. Count how many countries in the world have done that. It was govt. elected by ‘majority hindus’ who enacted these pieces of legislation.
-> Within 3 years of independence constitution was adopted that provided special provisions for supporting upliftment of SC/ST. Within 5 years of Independence India had enacted Land Reforms law to empower the landless. Can you think of any other country which tried to do that in such a short time?
US didn’t even give voting rights to Blacks till 1965, a full 189 years after their independence.
-> Kancha speaks of Subjugation & Humiliation. This is an anachronism in today’s India. Dalits & SC/ST combined form a winning vote block in this country. And that empowers them. They have political power directly or Indirectly. – Think of this : Mayawati, Karunanidhi “subjugated and humiliated”??
Because of the voting power these sections enjoy, temporary measures taken (like Reservations) are looking more and more likely to remain in perpetuity… So, the discrimination Kancha speaks of is being done in reverse today.
-> “Hinduism has failed to convince them”
Does Kancha understand what he is saying? Hindu’ism’ isn’t a person to convince someone of anything. It is not even a religion in a classical sense. In India, Hinduism is considered the ‘default’ religion. i.e. If you don’t belong to any other religion, then you tick mark the Hindu checkbox!! ;-)
>No social reformer, except [Jyotiba] Phule and [Babasaheb] Ambedkar, challenged the caste system.
About 2000 years before these gentlemen, Buddha challenged the caste system.
More than a 100 years before the Great Ambedkar, Raja Ram Mohan Roy (A Brahmin) had challenged it, and reformed the some of Hindu practices through his campaigns for legislation. Swami Vivekananda, Born a Brahmin (but he refused to be identified by any caste), had fought and preached against castism.
For Kancha the only reformers worth considering are “who gave me reservations”. The persons he mentioned were in a position to influence legislation, but they aren’t the only ones who fought against casteism.
For people like Kancha (and Mayawati), casteism is not something to be abolished. They thrive in hawking their victimhood. Their contribution is to keep reinforcing the varna ashram system, Manu preached a few thousand years back, to get best possible benefits for themselves.
A just demand against caste system would be – Abolishing the caste system. Make it a Punishable offense to inquire or discriminate on the basis of ones religion/caste. But then Kancha will be horrified with such a proposal.
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Khan:
>What merit they only know
You think we are a meritocracy? You think in any govt. institution (including defense) Merit works?
If we were meritocracy, our best brains wouldn’t have left India.
Besides, what the performance of Govt. institutions (established post 1947) have to do with Hinduism’s scientific temperament?
How about Ayurveda? How about Aryabhatiya? How about the invention of Mathematics as we know today (arithmetic, Algebra, trigonometry), written down as ‘sutras’ (Formulae) in Sanskrit?
More importantly the philosophies of Hinduism is not uni-polar and permits multiple beliefs, and encompasses all learning (Arts, Science, Maths etc.).
>I have nothing to say about “Hindu religion”, but this is really sad.
Indeed this is sad. I can’t figure when people realize the historic wrongs can’t be righted by spewing venom today.
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PTL,
If there was no economics involved with religion – no one would be bothered about it. Power and control is very important.
Separate everything from religion – and you will see no one will have any interest in it – even you.
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Kanchan, Geno Suzie, Testa , are plain simple hindu bashers who earn bread out of hinduism. ( bashing hindus of-course ) the other day this crap guy was in NDTV we the ppl show trying to convince the world that Vande mataram is anti OBC. What the F&ck?? Vande mataram and anti OBC PPL of such ilk find place and voice in journals like Churmuri ( again hindu bashers ) NDTV and IBN ( all so called intellectuals ) .
I have a new word for these ppl “JAI India” = Jack Ass Intellectuals of India
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Just who is this great man Kancha? Never heard or read about him or his writings. Where from he has suddenly descended? Can someone throw some light on this authority!
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Religion is a static entity. Nature is a dynamic entity.
Religion cannot be questioned. Nature believes in experimenting and in evolving.
Religion is stubborn adherence to a set of rules. Nature challenges itself, by improving constantly.
Religion is unflinching faith. Nature goes by reason.
Religion is never progressive. Nature is always progressive.
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“Hinduism is the only religion that has failed to negotiate and engage with reason and science. ”
-very funny considering the fact that the Vatican advises Christians to not use condoms and Muslims encourage fellow Muslims to blow themselves up to kill the kafirs.
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Janasamanya:
Kancha is one of the ‘backward’ intellectuals who is a lecturer political science and a writer. His specialty is berating Hinduism as a whole. If any TV channel wants some fire breathing OBC representative, Kancha is readily available.
Kancha is a self confessed hater of Hinduism, says he is a Buddhist. He doesn’t find any redeeming feature in Hinduism! He relentlessly works for OBC reservations and and writing of books spewing venom on Hinduism. I feel sad for his students as what he teaches will be colored by his prejudices.
He came in to prominence in the Post-Mandal era. OBC is defined by our constitution as ‘socially and educationally backward sections” and not any particular castes. But, Mandal & people Like Kancha wants purely Caste based OBC categorization – mainly including the 4th caste in Varnashrama system – Namely “Shudras”, or any person who converted to other religion from originally being a “shudra”. Perpetuating a caste system.
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@Harkol
>>>You think we are a meritocracy? You think in any govt. institution (including defense) Merit works?
NO!!!!, then what might be the reason for a particular caste set to fill up. It is usually “merit” being flauted around. I open to new explanation, may be bander baat between the castes of baniya gandhi and brahmin nehru.
What else explain, the complete hegemony, when 80% India is marginalised to the benefit of small percentage of, so-called “forward” caste.
By the way how does forward and backward works??
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Kancha argues against a caste system, which is fine. But, why should he dismiss Hinduism as a whole? Hinduism is not just about caste system. And even Varnashrama system isn’t what it is made out to be.
I remember a Mantra that’s recited in thread ceremonies (attributed to Manu Smriti – not sure).
Janmanaa jaayate shoodraha, karmanaa jayate dvijaha,
Veda pathanamthu vipranam, Brahma gnananthu Brahmanaha
Meaning:
By birth everyone is a Shudra,
By deeds he becomes a Dvija (Twice born)
By acquisition of Knowledge (Veda) he becomes a Vipra (Man of Intellect)
By understanding Brahman (the infinite) one becomes Brahmana.
Kshatria, Vaishya & Brahnanas are Dvijas. So apparently the belief is all are born equal as Shudras, and then move to other castes – based on Deeds & Knowledge. However, practice of Varnashrama indeed went totally awry.
Practice was to deny education to some, refusing them the opportunity to become Dvija or Brahmana.
Practice was to keep some folks out of the Caste system all together – Dalits or SC/STs. They were the out castes & ‘untouchables’. 75% of Indians belonging to Varnashram, treated this 25% awfully. I have seen it myself in my childhood. While Shudras were permitted to work within our village house (except the Pooja Room), Outcastes weren’t.
These were the people who did scavenging, worked on dead animals/people, collected human waste & Cleaned toilets, and weren’t even permitted inside of the living premises or to the waters used by people belonging to caste system (including Shudra).
It was cruel, humiliating and dehumanizing. I remember seeing these folks waiting long away from my ancestral village home during any special ceremonies, for scavenging on left-over food. Equivalent of dogs eating on a corporation dump. Brahmins and Shudras treated them the same. Shudra laborers ate at the same place as everyone. In the annex of the house, except they had a separate session. So, Hindu practices were hierarchical till very recently (perhaps even now in Villages). I was too young to understand or argue at that time. But, today such a practice is no longer there in my village.
Caste system looks so ridiculous today – where there are so called Brahmins cleaning toilets in Delhi and so called Shudra’s ruling us and performing pooja in temples. It is still practiced in some places, and We should abolish it thru law completely. It should be illegal to ask ones caste for anything (from temple entry to a Job application).
Kancha would earn my respect if he fought to reform this awful practice within Hinduism, instead of spewing venom on Hinduism as a whole.
All religions can and should adopt and change with time, dumping practices that are unfair. it is for us to choose good practices, without being absolutist.
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hehehe…as harkol says…all these anti hinduism characters that want a reservation for the OBCs try to define OBC/SC/STs based on the old individual castes, there-by they themselves propagate a new type of caste system; One with the “shudras” of the old sytem on the top in the new system….So much for eradication of castes!
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““Hinduism is the only religion that has failed to negotiate and engage with reason and science”. Sweeping statement which is blatant lie. Prof. Illaiah would know that teaching evolution and Darwinism is still frowned upon in Bible belt.
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I think the religion is a continuous process of reforms towards the ultimate aim of mankind having a sort of perfect system of living in harmony with himself, the society and the nature. It may take many centuries and hundreds of social reformers in achieving this end. Conflicts, primarily because of economic aspects and other issues among certain groups of people is nothing to be afraid of or frowned upon. Kancha with his very very narrow-minded and self-restricted views fails to understand this. Hinduism is open to any sort of criticism itself shows, how strong it is. Hinduism or for that matter any religion may have its deficiencies, but to berate it in such a manner Kancha has chosen is totally ridiculous and smacks of ulterior motive, rather than any worthwhile observations made with very narrow mindset.
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Dear All,
The only civil war I see is between the left lobe and the right lobe in the brain of Kancha! The man is a gadfly and is full of shit. However, Varnashram is something all Hindus should work hard to eradicate.
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Harkol says:
Kancha is one of the ‘backward’ intellectuals…
Saar are you kidding. He is intellectually backward. Empty vessels make more noise. Doddi Buddi saar where are you?
@Yavano Obba:
He recently took part in NDTV debate on Vande Mataram. His comments made me guffaw. Sample this “Goddess Laxmi, Saraswathi and Kali are against OBC. Therefore there shouldn’t be any religion.” I have the full video with me. Whenever I am stressed I watch it just for that guys comments.
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Bashing Hinduism is a favourite game played by all including some Hindus for it makes good news.
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Khan Sir:
>By the way how does forward and backward works??
Let me answer this funny question first..
You normally have two buttons to the left and right of the Play button of your DVD Remote. You press them to go forward or backward… :-)
Seriously – I didn’t understand the question.
>What else explain, the complete hegemony, when 80% India is marginalised to the benefit of small percentage of, so-called “forward” caste.
When a nation gains independence and sets out on certain new goals, it takes a few generations before achieving those founding goals. This is largely to do with a few factors:
1. You can’t change demographics overnight. A person who missed out on graduation by his age of 25, is unlikely to do graduation all his life. So, he’ll miss out on any job needing graduation for about 40 years.
In 1960-70s, it was unlikely that there were enough qualified lower caste folks to fill the jobs. In fact, overall number of graduates/engineers/doctors was very less in 50-60s. So, brahmins would’ve got in at higher proportion and once they got in, they work for 40 years till retirement.
We have been independent for 60 years – approximately two generations. Not enough time for complete transformation.
We do have some social ills to be set right. India has broken the back of Feudalism, brought laws to correct some of the cruel imbalances within society, have laid the foundations for a strong nation with its systemic and economic infrastructure. A reasonably good achievement for 60 years of self rule.
Where we failed is in ensuring good education for all. Even today, there are enough children who go without being educated right. If we change that, we’d have a different India within our lifetime.
>baniya gandhi and brahmin nehru
Your thought of upper caste domination isn’t right in today’s India. Consider this – In Tamilnadu 69% of Govt. Jobs are reserved for Backward castes and sections.
I suspect, if you made a list of all chief ministers in India now, it’ll have more than 50% of them from Backward/Lower castes or Minority communities. I can think of Karunanidhi, Mayawati, Narendra Modi, Ashok Chavan, Achyutanandan, who are all from backward castes. Don’t know about Rosaiah, but Late Rajashekar Reddy was from a Minority group, so is our Prime Minister. And should we consider Sonia Gandhi a Brahmin?
Who are powerful today? Brahmin/Bania?? How?
***
Simple:
> Religion is a static entity. Nature is a dynamic entity.
An interesting perspective. Watched 2012 last week, and while it is plain scare mongering of a movie, the premise is not entirely wrong. It is a fact that every few hundred thousand years, earth goes thru cataclysmic changes.
And when you watch that movie, where earth’s crust simply collapses to re-emerge elsewhere, you realize how insignificant human thought and evolutions are. Instead of enjoying our days here, we perhaps worry and fight too much..
hmm
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Why is media fixated with this kind of sensationalism and stirring up passion? Why not we see more of people who work within the system and who are the real reformers like Smt. Jagannathan [http://www.rightlivelihood.org/jagannathan.html] and the many others who may be out there…
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For all the hindus sitting in US/Canada/UK/Australia and making big-big comments, here’s a post from rediff presumably of Indians who have migrated to the west:
”
1. They think they are white.
2. When they are beggars, they grab the white man’s feet. After they are handed a break, they try to grab some other poor Indian’s throat.
3. They can memorize the concepts and explain very skillfully what the white man invented and what the Japanese or the chinese have created.
4. You won’t ever find anyone more conceited in the world. With ugly, disgusting habits, they claim to be cultured. With a sickening, divisive, and tragic social system of the past, they still claim that the country in ancient times was a united utopia.
“
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Kancha re Kancha re Meet meri sancha ……
I can remember this.
Ok.
How many of upper class Hindus have read Vedas?
0
Why are they called upper class then?
don’t know
Are enlightened people like Basavanna, Kanakadaasa , Vivekananda, Paramahamsa gave a damn to caste.
No.
Then why did Ambedkar wrote a constitution with so many castes. and that too with SC ST reservations and all?
If he had written casteless society with all land , money ,defence ,law and resources with government then things would have been fine. No. He didn’t do that. He wanted to beat Manu and Krishna and wrote Ambedkar smrithi.
He married twice or thrice and had great faith in Nehru who was caught with Edwina.
Kaamakke kannilla . Upper and lower caste Illiah. Politics is last resort of Scoun…ls kanayya. Anubhavisi. Ellaru anubhavisona.
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Bashing Hinduism is a favourite game played by all including some Hindus for it makes good news.
For who? The 90% Majority “Hindus”!!!
That’s a surprising revelation, I mean if the majority enjoys the self humiliation, then what problem do you or anyone have with Sir Kancha Illaiah. He is just been asked by the TRP seeking TV’s for the same… MAKING GOOD NEWS.
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>For who? The 90% Majority “Hindus”!!!
;-)
You got it 100% right. Hinduism is constantly criticized by Hindus. That’s why it has evolved.
Criticism is not a bad thing. Self evaluation and Self-Criticism is a first step in realizing the wrongs that needs correction. Rational, logical explanation of a problem and a corrective solution would be a a constructive criticism and a balm to divided society.
By his own choosing Kancha isn’t a Hindu. And he isn’t criticizing Hinduism – He is abusing. His Irrational, hate filled opposition and venomous speech will only help fan a destructive fire, with people who don’t find his speech comical.
:-(
Anonymous Guy:
>With a sickening, divisive, and tragic social system of the past, they still claim that the country in ancient times was a united utopia.
I know this isn’t your thought but are just reflecting sick thoughts of someone else.
I know of many who talk similarly (both Indians, like Kancha, and many foreigners I have interacted with). They always points to the deep flaws in our society and history. They seem to assume some civilizational superiority.
What they don’t realize is – While India wasn’t a great egalitarian society, the rest of the world at the same time in history was worse!!
West didn’t have caste system, but they had class system. They have racial discrimination and slavery. They refused equal rights even till last century.
Now again – How does India fare vis-a-vis the world in civility?
– In the past century India and Pakistan have fought 3.5 wars. The people who died in these wars on both sides combined is no where close to the number of people killed by the ‘civilized west’ in their wars.
– US has just about 250 years of history, and within that time they have wiped out the Natives of that country – Civilized?
– USA practiced slavery under its constitution for about 100years. Many US presidents were Slave owners, and some even sired children from their slaves!
Civilized?
– Europe had the worst fascist rulers (in Germany, Italy, Russia) in 20th century, they did ethnic cleansing at a scale that defies imagination. Civility did they say?
– The great European Civilization – subjugated vast portions of the world and ruled for 300 years with policies that have caused large scale poverty and deprivation to close to 2billion people around the world today. Civilised people did he say?
– How about the use of Civilized Automic weapons on a helpless people of another race??
We can show so many such examples, where the people living south of Himalayas were comparatively more civilized and humane at any point in history. Not perfect – just more considerate and contemplative.
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To all religious people..Two thumbs up your you-know-what.
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Khan! I dare your religion to open up for critisism. other body parts including head will be cut off, not by Hindus!
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Has religion failed humanity? Why are we all squabbling here, each claiming that his idea of relgion is the most appropriate?
Don’t we realise that faith cannot be questioned? Faith is not rational. So plese stop this streetfight. Nothing good will come out of it.
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Agreed that this chap Mr. Kancha Ilaiah is a rabid agent provocateur. He has about the same level IQ as Mr. B P Singhal has. IMO both these types are curse to our nation as they are singularly opinionated, close-minded and just don’t seem to consider any other alternative views. That’s unadulterated fundamentalism.
However for our own good we need to have a serious look at the caste system. Though mercifully this divisionary construct is losing steam – especially in the urban milieu – it still probably is vigorously practised in the hinterland.
And that’s precisely what the blockheads like Kancha Ilaih perceive as Hinduism as a whole – nothing more nothing less. Not for them any high falutin funda about Sanatana dharma, philosophy etc. They see only the ugly part of the religion/society and deem that to be the whole. A monkey on a lower branch of a tree sees a** of the monkey sitting above it when it looks up. Perhaps not a very cultured or an erudite simile..but you get the drift I hope.
If many of them really have similar venom as Mr. KI, then it is not a frivolous matter. Any simmering discontent can’t be just wished away. Like the Murphy’s law – if something can go wrong, it wil.
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Harkol – Couple of things you forgot:
1. Americans, west in general, do not glorify and make propaganda about their past. They accept their treatment towards natives and blacks. You do not see people cribbing about affirmative action all the time.
2. They do not give twisted logic in favour of slavery unlike majority Indians vehemently supporting caste system as a need of structured society, way of life, blah blah.
And what self criticism and self evaluation are you talking about? If you keep radical Islam as the benchmark of tolerance and self criticism, then only Nazism would probably score higher. You consider some people whining in unknown identities in forums as sign of a progressed society? How many people dare to criticize Hinduism (religion in general) or god or 101 other ills it has brought with superstitions? America’s 2nd most populous identity, after Christians, is atheists. I do not understand why do you even try to put these comparisons with west, who beyond any doubt are more critical of themselves, and have developed a better civilization. Can you name one person like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens or Naom Chomski?
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Abhi,
‘Can you name one person like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens or Naom Chomski?’
er… Kancha Ilaiah?
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AG – I guess that was a joke. Anyway, to start with, Kancha Ilaiah is no match for Dawkins or anybody in clear, logical thinking. Secondly, he or anyone else who are critical (of anything) are not accepted even by a miniscule of people in India, so much so that, for a news monger that I am, I hadn’t even heard his name before.
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There sure is crisis..and that is in Ilaiah’s mind..
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Abhi
Brilliantly said. Encore!
Anshuman Patel
Equally good.
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Either ignorance is bliss or it is an agenda driven irony…..
1. Indian Rationalists Association
2. Dr. H. Narasimhayya
3. M.P. Shanker-Kuladaalli keelyavedu melayavudu
4. KanakaDasa – Kula Kula Kula vendu
these should ring a bell(ghanti)….
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Ram,
Bapu satyavadi, observed, that mocking/bashing “hinduism” makes good news. Which may be true, considering the Tellys play for ratings and viewers chioce. But your suggestion may not bring the same things to them.
Anshuman Patel,
Agreed Sir Kanch Illiah does not come across as articulate, but his critical view cannot be brushed aside by crude personal attack. As you too accepted “caste is still probably is vigorously practiced in the hinterland”, which constitute like some 75% of the country, you just cannot brushed aside. No, there are no philosophy, high fundaet el of Hinduism you talk, just the debauchery of the casteist society.
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This is an another biased comment about hindsim.Hinudsim is a way of life not religion.we have no caste pracitices atleast now as dalits are very powerfull now and they wont reveal their caste anywhere except to gain some benefits from the govt there are inequalities in other caste and westren contries nobody dares to talk about it only hindu is alwalys targeted
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Dailybread – one more:
5. Upendra in Raktha Kanneeru.
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Abhi,
So you will only deem something worth your attention if it is uttered or written by ‘certified’ western thinkers?
Makes sense I guess – do you live in the West or India?
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“So you will only deem something worth your attention if it is uttered or written by ‘certified’ western thinkers?”
AG – No, I think you did not get the point. We were talking about being self critical. A society can not be termed self critical unless voices of dissent are vocal and hold significant support like that in west. You, me or someone else criticizing this culture/caste system does not make society progressive unless there is significant support or atleast general acceptance. Sorry, I can not be more articulate.
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Daily Bread. avare – One more:
6) Basavanna ; Ivanaarava Ivanaarava endenisadirayya…
Iva nammava Iva Nammavanendinisayya.
Can u imagine ? It is told and done eight hundred years ago !!!!!
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It really is appalling when wannabe deipnosophist in their eagerness to impress their white colleagues or masters either at the work place meeting or at a company soiree, reel out fancy anglo-saxon names- guess it has got to be the flavor of the season . They would do well to condescend and read Shivaram Karanth. Yeanopa aDeyno anDangay hithlu gida maDalla
Yava kichenno, yava Dunkinno!
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Dailybread
Dawkins is a biologist/geneticist/rationlist/atheist. You cannot compare his scholarly, intensely inventive and scientific books ike ‘the selfish gene’ to any other rationalist in India.
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Abhi:
you miss the point. I questioned the concept of civility and civilization of the west.
They dont have a glorious past and where they do they do glorify more than all other folks. I am not saying west today doesn’t have any lesson in civility to us, but there are many they can learn too.
The affirmative action they have is no where equal to what india is doing. It is true that atheism is bi in us, and being an atheist myself, I don’t consider that a badge of civility.
For example: I was a nonvegetarian despite having born a Vege family. A habit picked up post college days. I found it very difficult to kick that lifestyle, which I considered cruel and uncivil. Even today I struggle with the temptation at times. India by far is vegetarian and that is a good thing and the most civil thing in my definition. But nonvegetarianism isn’t even an issue for most in west.
For them their lives and lifestyles are worth sacrificing the lives of scores of others. They don’t even have a conflict there. There is no regret for killing tens of thousands in Iraq Afghanistan and millions in vietnam. What matters is saving a few ‘American lives’ as if that is more valuable than other lives.
My question is really about the premise of west being more civil. The only domain they are more civil than us is in ‘rule of law’. But that can’t be the only touchstone?
As to india being barbaric in some practices. It is true of pockets of india even today. But we do have many people who fight too. Swami agnivesh may not get same publicity as a Chomsky but he is no less a thinker and more active social reformer.
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This article in TIMES OF INDIA? unbelievable.
Well said K.I.
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ayya khan, you can say what you want and be as hateful as you want but atleast show some civility and common courtesy to fellow posters. at the very least refer to them by their names correctly. your hate shows where you systematically and consistently mis-spell hindu names.
oh! well.
rationalism/aetheism does not require a “scientific” basis. i would run from any “rationalist” whose rationalism is based on reading paperbacks from chi-chi bookstores. basic problem being, such books are solution manuals. and rarely do people have original and personal questions on the matter.
just like there is an industry of moksha seekers, bcoz somebody told them that seeking moksha is the ultimate goal, there is also an industry of scientific temper/rationalism seekers.
so oneday, i looked at my ‘library’ and realized if i was not rich enough to buy that book, or read it online, half my thoughts, which i am convinced i have completely absorbed, would not even exist!! rarely have i gone from one book to another because there was question that arose after reading the first book. 99% of the books i have i picked up bcoz they were on the subject or let me see what he has to say, or bcoz somebody told me it is a good book.
paperback reading. hardly a scientific/rational approach to formulate something as grandoise and self important as rationalism.
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another problem, with this is that it means poor people or illiterate people cannot be scientific/rational. which i know for a fact is not true, bcoz my grandfather is the most rational person i have known in person and i rarely buy a book or read one. but did he think about issues and talk about them? you bet.
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i have rarely seen him buy a book or read one
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Harkol
Does Civlity got anything to do with the population?
It was reported in Times of India (3rd Dec 2009, bangalore edition, page 18) that chronic overcrowding on London’s trains was turning people into animals. Travellers grab seats, by ignoring pregnant women or parents with babies in a ‘survival of the fittest’.
How different is it from Indian buses and trains?
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Shekhar,
“Kayakave kailasa” great philosophy in two words
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Simple ,
There is no “Delusion” here. I know my Dawkins.
Shankha, theertha and all that……
Abhi ,
Popular Support=All best sellers (books) in India are pirated and sold on footpaths. You can buy a Dawkins for 50 Rs from a nearest footpath to you.
BTW, Simple & Abhi, do you folks agree with what Dawkins has said about hindus & Hinduism.
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@ VIVEK
“Caste system alone is not hinduism” you are obsolutely correct.Coz it has plenty of other evil(great ?) practices as well like dowry,child marriage, untouchability………etc………etc.I dont think he is dumb but Im sure he is from oppressed caste/class.
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TS,
“just like there is an industry of moksha seekers, bcoz somebody told them that seeking moksha is the ultimate goal, there is also an industry of scientific temper/rationalism seekers.
so oneday, i looked at my ‘library’ and realized if i was not rich enough to buy that book, or read it online, half my thoughts, which i am convinced i have completely absorbed, would not even exist!! rarely have i gone from one book to another because there was question that arose after reading the first book. 99% of the books i have i picked up bcoz they were on the subject or let me see what he has to say, or bcoz somebody told me it is a good book.
paperback reading. hardly a scientific/rational approach to formulate something as grandoise and self important as rationalism.
another problem, with this is that it means poor people or illiterate people cannot be scientific/rational. which i know for a fact is not true,”
Great post!!! Brilliant
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Dailybread.
Dawkins books are too highbrow to be available on footpath . Serious, non-fiction highbrow books find no takers on the footpath.
i agree with most of what Dawkins says about religion. What specific aspect are you referring to about Hinduism?
And i agree, kaiyakave kailasa is a brilliant two word expression. All Indian philosophers/saints/rationalists were capable of great philopsophical thoughts – but none of them can match the actual scientific genius of Dawkins.
Dawkins gives volumnous scientific evidence/rationale to back what he says.
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tsubba
You are right.
I have always found myself ‘slinking in embarrassment’ when friends of mine drop names of big authors. To my mortification, i would not have even heard of such authors.
I don’t believe i developed a rational mind after reading books of Abhraham Kovoor or Christopher Hutchins. I simply feel it is an innate common sensical ability.
While books do open up your mind to newer ways of thinking (For that matter, even the passionate debates on Churumuri) offers each one of us fresh perspectives on any subject.
It is pure common sense.
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Simple:
I don’t think Civility has anything to do with Population concentration. It has to do with culture,thought process and availability of life’s essentials for all – leading to liberty to all.
In my definition Civility is – Respect for other human’s (and animal’s) right to co-exist and practice their way of life, without violently or forcibly curbing those ways of life, as long as it doesn’t infringe on the fundamental rights (life, speech, expression etc).
By that definition – Caste system is Uncivil. So is any impolite comments in this forum, verbally attacking someone personally.
Civility is normally demonstrated by politeness – and on that count westerners are more polite in their daily interactions.
However, appearances can be very deceptive as they also fought most wars in past few centuries.
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Valale Subbanna:
>practices as well like dowry,child marriage, untouchability………etc………etc.
Interesting you should bring up dowry.
On my recent visit to Mangalore, I heard from a person of Bunt community, where dowry (they call it Badi) system was rampant that it is no longer the case.
Apparently, sex ratio may be the reason. It has become more difficult to find eligible girls and people are glad to get an alliance, and people do not demand Dowry due to this. I suspect reverse may be the case in another generation!!
Dowry system existed in many other cultures too. Child Marriage too existed in all societies at some point. Widow burning wasn’t so prevalent in other societies, though.
Caste system is certainly unique to Hinduism, though other discriminatory Class systems existed in other societies.
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Harkol
If there are two people in a 10×10 room, it is easy to be civil to each other.
Squeeze in 100 people in the same room, and each one will be stepping on each other’s toes, farting in each other’s face.
No way anybody can be civil in such a situation.
Population is the root cause of uncivility.
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Simple:
> farting in each other’s face
:-)
Agreed. But, then again the population itself isn’t the problem – it is the resources. In this case ‘space’. So, if you said ‘population density’ can be a problem I agree.
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Abhi:
> A society can not be termed self critical unless voices of dissent are vocal and hold significant support like that in west.
You got this entirely reverse. Lets start with Gandhi’s famous quote on ‘western civilization’ – He said “it’d be a good idea”. I am sure you’d value atleast Gandhi at the same level as the western thinkers you quoted??
I’d say Indian voices of Dissent have more vocal and revolutionary support vis-a-vis their time. Even today, there is larger support for people working for upliftment of Downtrodden in India. Most legislation intended to support the weaker sections find great support (Sometimes unanimous support).
Even think of the movements. Someone like Swami Agnivesh has significant support (as does the Arya Samaj to which he belongs). Baba Amte, Chinmayananda, Sunderlal Bahuguna, Sri Sri Ravishankar etc. Who are our contemporaries attempting the reformation of Hindu society & Spirituality. They are high thinkers and they all have found considerable support in Indian society.
It is just that as a reader of west published literature (and perhaps exposed to a lot of PBS braodcasts) you may know more of Chomsky than these gentlemen.
I have lived in US, and they do show great civility in daily life and are extremely polite in their interactions. They are perhaps more open to criticism on things they don’t care (like their own history). However, it isn’t the same when it comes to their single minded determination of world domination. Except for minority who support Chomsky and like, majority support continued domination of the world through brute force if need be.
‘Wester civilization would indeed be a good idea’.
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Harkol dude
Thanks for mildly agreeing..
you say it is not the problem, it is the resources. Or in other words ‘space’ as you call it.
Space is a fixed entity. You cannot create more space on earth. Earth does not expand everyday , so taht more land space is created . no way.
To my knowlelge teh space on earth has been exactly the same since a billion years.
Space cannot be changed. Population can be changed.
Space is not in our hands. Population is in our hands.
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>Space is a fixed entity.
consider this – America is a far more civilized place today than 50-100 years back, even with higher population.
Space is a fixed entity, but it isn’t a scarce commodity. The problem is that of distribution of people in the available space in the world.
For Example: Mumbai has a Population Density of 25,000people/sq.km. Chandigarh about 7500/sq.km. Where as Nilgiris has only about 500/sq.km. Go to maps.google.com and see the satellite images of Bangalore. Just about 20km from Bangalore you’ll see vast empty land – Thousands and thousands of acres.
What was needed is for better transportation, water, sanitation facilities in the space that is available. And for businesses to be located conveniently for people to live without having to live in such close proximity as in case of Mumbai/London. In other words, planning of our cities and how we’d use the overall available resources.
Some Scientists have estimated that earth has a carrying capacity for more than a Trillion Human Beings, provided we can intelligently cultivate and distribute our resources.
Ofcourse that’s a mind numbingly large figures (probably we don’t even have so many cockroaches in the world at present). Considering current population of earth is about 5.7Billion and we have to produce another 996Billion people to close in on a trillion, that’s long long way off. Also, the lifestyle of these trillion people can’t be same as it is now, just as our lifestyles aren’t the same as it was at the Time of Akbar the great.
But, if we can’t figure a way to make available the resources, then Earth can’t even support a billion (i.e. people consuming they way Americans are doing now, and our overall resource cultivation/distribution doesn’t improve).
So, as I said – Problem isn’t purely the people – it is the distribution of resrouces.
Most scientists agree that within next 50 years, Earths population will start stabilizing before going down! They project a Plateu being reached between 2050-2100, and by 2150 it’d start reducing. Primary reason – Realization by most govt. and people that they won’t be able to live a good life by producing more people. If two Individuals, living for 100years, create only one offspring, in their lifetime, they’d only have created enough people to replace themselves. This has already become a norm in most developed countries (i.e. 1:1 replacement ratios or less), and more countries are expected to follow suit.
This is why I totally disagree with the concept of ‘demographic dividend’ for India.
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Burqa is failing –
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/world/03-harassment-across-arab-world-drives-women-inside-ss-01
Maybe the eyes are seducing men.
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Harkol.
1. Are you contending my premise that space is a fixed entity? Are you telling me that space on earth is infinite? is earth increasing its girth? Is it becoming obese?
2. As far as I am concerned, Space is the PRIMARY problem, distribtion of available space is SECONDARY problem
3. Why do i say space is a PRIMARY problem? For example, Mumbai cannot grow any longer . Hemmed in by mountains on one side, cheetas on the other and sea on the other, how does Mumbai grow? Only the number of people can grow. The city’s physical area has very limited scope for growth.
It is precisely this explosive population growth that is provoking political parties like MNS and Shiv Sena to target North Indians
4. Why do i say distribution of space is SECONDARY problem? It is obvious that there is plenty of space in Antartica. Can you shift bangaloreans to Antartica? Can techies travel from Antartica to ITPL everyday?
5. YOu say that if I look at google earth, i can see thousands and thousands of vast space. Most of this ‘vast’ space is predominantly for agriculture. You would not get your anna sambhar on your plate if not for this ‘vast’ ‘waste’ land.
6. Granted America is more civilized now than a century back. Most would contend that, though, with the massive public support for Bush’s war against Iraq and Afghanistan. Proof? Bush won a popular second term.
But that’s not my point. There is somethign called critical level of population. Let me illustrate. If america’s size is say 10,000 sft – and their population 100 years back was 10 people, it was sufficient for 10 people to live in 10,000 sft., without farting in each other’s face.
Now today, in 2010, the 10,000 sft has not changed. but the population has increased one and a half times to 30 people. Thirty people sharing 10,000 sft of space is still tolerable.
But if the population of america increase to 300 people, then it will be a problem. 300 people within 10,000 sft, will lead to dogfights for resources. I call this ‘300’ as critical level.
That is what is happening in London trains. Decades back, everybody was civil to each other. Today, with migrant population bursting at the seams in London, the trains are filled to the brim. Therefore, nobody wants to be civil to each other (report in TImes of India)
That is what is happening in extremely dense pockets of India. because there is no way for further growth, people start figthing for meagre resources.
Better transportation , better infrastructre, better everything can help only to a point. Can anybody say London is bad when it comes to transportation and infrastructure? yet it is believed people act like savages on trains.
if some scientists believe earth can hold a trillion people, what will happen if we have 2 trillion people?
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Simple: I agree space (rather land) is limited in supply – as twain said “they don’t make it anymore”.
We are basically looking at the same thing from different angle.
My approach is that we are no where close to saturation in terms of ‘land usage’. The “critical level” that you mentioned.
Mumbai can (and is growing beyond the hills). If you can travel to Pune (and I did) i about two hours from Mumbai, there is no reason why you can’t travel to outskirts of Mumbai in half hour. US cities would’ve had same density as Mumbai if they didn’t expand in all directions. US east/west coast are basically one large suburbia, where people can spread out but can commute within matter of hours to main city.
Consider this – Akbar (richest man of his time) would’ve considered Delhi to be a far off place, Agra, which was only 26miles from his capital took a day to reach and Delhi would be 4-5 days! Today people make a day trip to these places from Delhi (to be back on their own beds by night)!!
I travelled in Mag-lev train from Shanghai Airport to Longyang station, which took me about 7 minutes for some 30-35km distance!!
In African countries there are riots for lack of food. One would think there isn’t enough food for everyone, but that isn’t so. World produces excess food than all its population can eat as of today, but still there are close to a billion people sleeping hungry…
In fact, in Copenhagen some people wore a placard that says how sponsoring condoms in Kenya at a cost of $100 a year, can save a few hundred tons of Carbon emission by people who otherwise would be born… While that isn’t statistically wrong(though sounds racist), population control is only small part of the problem. The bigger challenge is how to provide resources to about 7Billion people who already inhabit earth, for them to have good life. Even if population doesn’t grow any further, as more people switch over to cars etc, resources are going to be a problem.
Our challenges of future is going to be – How do we harness renewable energy, How do we convert sea water to ‘usable water’. How do we convert vast arid desserts of the world into granaries, and how do we let people live in high density without having to ‘fart on each other’s face’. ;-)
All this is feasible, though we won’t know how that’ll be accomplished. But, I believe these will be achieved with Human ingenuity.
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Simple:
>Most would contend that, though, with the massive public support for Bush’s war
The key word is “more civilized”.
As I had posted earlier (perhaps elsewhere in churumuri), I do not particularly believe any country in the world is civilized to the extent we’d like it to be. We all have uncivil people among us.
Many comments here attack me personally – calling me names and trying to insult me – for holding some views that are different than theirs.
Civility is a utopia that’s hard to achieve.
:-(
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Harkol Sir
1. You believe that we are not close to saturation. Well, actually scientists differ on this point. there are some scientists who say that we are already overburdened and earth is groaning under the weight of 7 billion people. There are still others who believe that earth can hold one trillion people.
Since i am not a scientist (and i safely presume, neither are you) it’s best we let the learned scientists squabble between themselves.
But that’s not essentially my point.
My point is population overdose is making us animals.
Is there any sound basis for what I claim?
Let’s see.
See how people behave in crowded traffic jams. Road rage is the order of the day..
See how people behave on London trains.
See how people behave at crowded pilgrimages – stampedes result in death of the weakest – children and women.
See how people behave in BMTC buses.
You are forced to savour the sweaty smell of somebody’s underams.
Or a well built hunk grabs a seat meant for the handicapped.
Or, if you are a lady, you just have to bear the greedy groping of a lecherous male.
All this happens because of over population in small spaces.
Technology cannot be used to increase the size of earth.
Technology can be only used to augment resources – like turning salt water into drinking water , deserts into green fields and antartica into a casino.
Man is essentially an animal – and poulation overdose brings this out in us.
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Simple:
I appreciate your points.
But, again we are talking about density vs infrastructure (resource) being the problem – Not the ‘population growth’ itself. Bangalore/Mumbai traffic was planned for about 1/10th – 1/15th the vehicles that actually ply on it. If there were more roads, the density of traffic reduces, and it is imminently possible! US has more vehicles than India, but you won’t see un-civil traffic there.
>My point is population overdose is making us animals.
Webster Definition- Civilized : characteristic of a state of civilization ; especially : characterized by taste, refinement, or restraint
In each parameters of this definition world has become more civilized over centuries inspite of growth in Population. It is only in places where density of population is not managed well (like Bangalore traffic) that civility breaks down.
World is far more civilized today than a century ago, or even a 1000 years ago on any parameter of civilization.
Restraint: Virtually each small sect/state was in war with another. Europe was virtually in Dark Ages, large scale killings (in relative population ratio) in name of religion etc.
Refinement – Blind Faith, Bad Health, difficult living. Each passing generation is more refined than the one before in terms of sophistication of living.
Taste: Almost any society today enjoys far higher cultural exposure (TV/Radio etc) and thus develops a taste for various arts. Art was restricted to elite till about a century or so ago…
Check the growth of Population of the world – http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/history/world-population-growth.htm
Each generation would’ve thought “My god how will world afford so many people in a few generations”. In fact, they used to make 8-12-15 children those days.
While scientists are arguing Earths holding capacity, the argument generally is about the projections of scientific growth to support infrastructure for expanded human population.
The trillion people capacity – which is about 100+ times of today’s population, it is unimaginable for us. However, if we consider that in Buddha’s time the earth population was 1/100th of today, it is entirely feasible.
‘one trillion’ would be calculated based on the energy we receive from sun vs Energy needed to sustain trillion people, as our species stands today (with current lifestyles).
Of course, It assumes the science would’ve figured a way to feed them the energy by then. People who are pessimistic about such scientific (Bio-Tech) progress estimate less.
But, with birth control becoming available, it is unlikely that Human species will grow as rapidly as it grew in the past 10,000 years.
:)
>Man is essentially an animal
Yes sir. This I totally agree.
It is only a comfortable and stress free life – that makes us more refined and restrained. Deny that we all have capacity to become wild dogs. Heck, I have lost my cool a few times in traffic.
But, We will be able to fix it. I am very hopeful. It hasn’t dawned on our town planners that, we need to do traffic modeling before we build infrastructure. If we did that (as Americans did 50 years back, and Chinese did in the last decade), we’ll be able to take care of this and other problems.
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Simple:
Found some info. on Net and did a back of Envelop calculation.
Sun Constant (Energy received from Sun on earth) – 1.353kW/sq.meter/hour.
Total amount of energy needed by a person with a Rich Nation (USA) Lifestyle as of today: 7.5kW/hr. Only a small portion of that is actually needed by the human body for survival alone.
Amount of space needed per person to receive sufficient energy : approx. 6sq.meter (about 60sq.ft).
Earth’s circumference : 120 Trillion meter.
Can it sustain 1trillion people? Seems likely.
With just about 5% land used for Efficient Energy generation, with rest of the energy left for regular earthly activities. Oh, this doesn’t even consider radical solutions like Generating power on Moon and Beaming it to earth thru Microwave etc. Earth apparently receives only 0.00000000001% of the energy emmitted by Sun. It is quite thinkable to increase the reception of energy through vast artificial celestial mechanisms.
Don’t ask me “What kind of a life is that”… I lack Imagination. Too much of Star Trek.. ;)
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Harkol Sir
Not bad. You argue rationally, with objective facts, unlike many others on this blog who are driven by fierce emotions.
I may disagree with what you say, but i like the way you make a case for what you believe in.
I will revert to your long rebuttal soon. Weekend work is hectic.
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You are using the support of ‘semantics’ and ‘scientific jingbang’to validate your points.
I am merely going by common sense and logic.
Arguments based on semantics and ‘your kind of science’ can go on endlessly because of their very nature.
by twisting and turning words, we can endlessly get into a verbal spat, a semantics jugglery.
And as far as science is concerned – your science of earth being able to support 1 trillion people is a supposition, an assumption – it has not been proved, so it is comprehensively pointless to go into a debate on it.
Like i said, i am going by mere simple earthy human sense.
Instead of 75 lakhs, imagine Bangalore with only 10 lakh people.
Each family would get to live on a sprawling, spacious 100×100 ft site, instead of the current average of a suffocating 20×20 ft, that most of us live in.
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>Instead of 75 lakhs, imagine Bangalore with only 10 lakh people.
Sir, Think of Bangalore populated with only one family of 4 persons. it’d have a sprawling 700sq.km estate… ;-)
If we are truly civilized, then we won’t put unreasonable restrictions on people’s movement (like china does on its citizens). If people choose to come to cities, it is because of the infrastructure and resources (livelihood). If you provide good livelihood in a place where people can afford 100x100ft site, then they won’t come to a 20x20ft Bangalore.
Its not semantics – common sense and logic.
I am not ‘advocating’ for a trillion people planet, I was using ‘logic’ and ‘common sense’ to arrive at a possibility. If in 2,500 years we could multiply 100 times, it is entirely possible we can multiply another 100times in another 2500years, but not probable.
In 1960s, India was doomed as our traditional agriculture didn’t support our population. A massive famine stared at our face, and many experts predicted millions of starvation deaths.
American scientists helped develop a new breed of rice, that increased the yield by 10times in one swell swoop. And India was self sufficient in food production in just 2decades.
If a technology 50 years old could achieve that, commonsense and logic dictates that ‘order of magnitude’ gains to support higher population is feasible.
Why is all this semantic jugglery and ‘jing bang’?? ;-)
Alvin Toffler (famous social scientist) wrote in 1970s a wonderful book called Future Shock. In that he predicted that the coming generations will find it difficult to adjust to fast paced change, as change was never as rapid in the previous centuries of humanity and typically took more than a generation to effect. Now, complete change happens withina generation, and it is more likely that our world will change even more rapidly in future. He had advised govts to teach life skills of adaptation as part of curriculum to cope with such change.
Our craving for 100x100ft (in my father’s book even that’s small), is part of that ‘future shock’. However, Change doesn’t mean we are less civilized because of increased population, evidence (basis of logic) is to the contrary.
I agree to disagree with you. We can indeed argue endlessly on this. Perhaps our positions are too entrenched to change.
It was indeed pleasure arguing with you though.. :-)
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American scientists helped develop a new breed of rice, that increased the yield by 10times in one swell swoop. And India was self sufficient in food production in just 2decades.
Harkol
The Americans may not be able to help out the next time… That said, if statistics on the web are right, India’s population growth rate is getting lower over the years and may stabilize before it is too late – who knows?
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AG:
>The Americans may not be able to help out the next time…
It won’t matter who does the invention. Indian Bio-Tech will be mature enough in next 20 years to do it on its own.
India does need a second green revolution. If not in cereals, certainly in Veg/Fruits.
Yeah. You are right. Indian population will stabilize at around 1.5billion mark, but that’s a huge huge population, and if we don’t develop about 40-50 cities with 25-30lakh population by then, our current major cities will be dead with each having 2crore+ population.
The major trend worldwide is urbanization, and in India, it means people flocking to some 6-8 cities for opportunities. We need have these young folks to go to perhaps about 60-70 cities, which have equally good opportunities. That’ll make India more like US, with many urban centers, which are spread out all over… No one city will become unbearable like mumbai (and soon Bangalore)
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With all due respect, this man makes me laugh!
It is Christianity and Islam, in any case, that have failed to negotiate with scientific facts. Except, of course, for the Hindu that was prosecuted for teaching evolution…
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