As a case of extortion and execution in l’affaire Sohrabuddin is turned into a test of Gujrati asmita by the “splenetic outburst against every civlised norm” by Narendra Damodardas Modi, Professor Jyotirmaya Sharma of the University of Hyderabad—author of “Terrifying Vision”: M.S. Golwalkar, the RSS and India— writes in Mail Today:
“The Indian middle class loves someone who takes on imaginary and real villains. It cannot do much to make buses and trains run on time, it cannot wish away pollution that is caused largely due to its fondness for cars, and it cannot effectively ensure regular supply of drinking water and electricity.
“It is impotent in the face of corruption and helps feed the corruption spiral by its sheer impatience. It loves words like efficiency and development, but gets worried when the same development leads to the naxal problem. It believes in nothing and stands for nothing.
“It lives with the contradiction that there is no safe drinking water in large parts of the country but there is mobile phone connectivity almost everywhere. It celebrates shopping malls and American fast-food joints but knows that there is a fair chance of one never emerging the same as before after being inside an Indian hospital, be it public or private.
“It speaks of merit and excellence but pays donations to get into colleges and universities. It hates the noise and the bustle of India but remains glued to reality shows as the only form of reality it can take in.
“It swears by Indian traditions but is ready to flee to the United States and Europe at the slightest provocation. It calls Hinduism as a way of life but is oblivious as to whose way of life it is or who determines Hinduism. It celebrates India as the largest democracy in the world but envies countries like Malaysia, Singapore, China and Israel.
“Narendra Modi is the embodiment of this class: he too stands for nothing and believes in nothing but himself. That is why Modi and sections of the Indian middle class never suffer from any form, whatsoever, of contrition and think of honest self- reflection as a form of liberal indulgence.”
Photograph: Karnataka Photo News
Read the full article: Gujarat is the loser as long as Modi leads
Also read: An epitaph to the literate, educated middle-class
And why does the secular Indian press glorify known, chargesheeted criminals like Sohrabuddin and make whiter-than-driven-snow martyrs out of the likes of Ishrat Jahaan?
And of course, when Hadley talks of her being a trained terrorist, that’s because Hadley votes for Modi, yes?
An entire state simmering with discontent and furious at this holier-than-thou treatment does not bode well. So be it.
in short, the Indian middle class is the hypocrite of the biggest order.
Unfortunately, Indian Middle class today,mainly comprises of the upper strata of the stratified caste system. They have still not come to terms with the breaking down Casteist/Fuedal structure and will cling on to anything that vaguely resembles or represents the old order. Even if that is lead by a person from the “lower strata” like Modi.
On Careful analysis, the only common strain in all that Indian Middle class yearns for is the restoration of the old castesit/Fuedal/heirarchial order. That explains the self-contradiction of the Indian Middle class.
Stoking up nationalism at the expense of individual liberty and mobility has left us with Hitlers and Napoleans. Modi is surely in the same league.
I am a Hindu and proud one at that. I recognize the short comings of Hinduisms (Just like any other religion, Christianity or Islam have their short comings). Just because I am Hindu, Should I condone a Killer like Modi? Hell No!
Wow… what starts off as finger wagging at the GUjarati middle class suddenly becomes a damning indictment of about 250 million discrete individuals and their collective preferences as seen in the actions of…. a few editors and businessmen? This is what passes for analysis these days?
Let us ignore the fact that the BJP has been driven out of power in the centre post Gujarat. Let us not even examine the middle class protagonists of the case which made the Supreme Court direct investigations into the Gujarat massacre by the CBI. Let us also exclude, Christians, Parsis, Muslims, Jains and atheists from the definition of “middle class” since middle class obviously means Hindu.
What is really the basis for assuming that this abominable man is “popular” across India? Is a single statistic or piece of data quoted to suggest this?
Businessmen who praise Modi in one breath equally fall over each other to praise Manmohan Singh and Chidambaram not because they are paragons of virtue but their interests are protected. Do we expect them to do otherwise?
What better exemplar of lazy writing and shoddy thinking can there be than lumping that diverse body of individuals broadly meeting certain socio-economic criteria in a wide band into one and calling them all “it”. It’s almost as if everyone knows that the Indian middle class is one hive mind incapable of rational thought or behaviour apart from carrying out the listed actions without a second thought.
anon:
>why does the secular Indian press glorify known, chargesheeted criminals like Sohrabuddin
Can you tell me where he has been ‘glorified’? Why is it wanting to have rule of law is equal to being anti-national?
It is true that in extreme circumstances, our security forces are given ‘extra constitutional’ orders sometimes. Especially with regards to fugitives from law like Veerappan or Maoists etc.
But, how can one accept cold blooded killings in the name of encounter? Even if they are criminals?
@anon
Headley (maybe) mentioned IS.
But what about the other fake encounters – there are at least 15 on record and rather surprisingly (!!) most if not all involved witnesses of the 2002 riots.
Enough is enough. We know what kind of answer you deserve. Don’t force us to use such rough words. We know patriotism is a crime in India. For us, Narendraji is like Netaji or Roger Casement. If you don’t like him, you have enough right to say so. But you have no right to abuse us. If you want to do so, we know how to shut that mouth.
@das
>But you have no right to abuse us. If you want to do so, we know how to shut that mouth.
Wonder who is abusing/threatening whom!! :0
Middle class silly ?? Saar they are the people who have got the element of greatness to this country not the dumb journalists who crawled when govt asked them to bend.
@harkol
>>> I do believe now harkol got it…!!!
There is nothing worst to kill Ishrat Jahan like terrorists. Whenever a nation failed to protect ITS PEOPLE, a patriot has such right. It’s not constitutional but moral.
@Anon:
>>And why does the secular Indian press glorify known, chargesheeted criminals like Sohrabuddin and make whiter-than-driven-snow martyrs out of the likes of Ishrat Jahaan?
Glorify? As Harkol said, I too haven’t seen any glorifying of Sohrabuddin in media.
He was a criminal. He should have been in jail and made to go through the legal process. Much the same as Mr. Amit Shah and his gang of merry gun-toting folks in uniform. Ideally all of them should have been in the same cell exchanging notes on what went wrong in the game of extortion.
@Alok:
>>What better exemplar of lazy writing and shoddy thinking can there be than lumping that diverse body of individuals broadly meeting certain socio-economic criteria in a wide band into one and calling them all “it”.
Splendid! What’s it with this middle-class bashing? Easy target? Or misplaced sense of grievance? Are the other sections of the society any better? This is not to say middle-class is noble and next best thing since the sliced bread. But I don’t think meanness is appropriated by middle-class alone. I see it in equal measure in other sections too.
This is the same old story of stereotyping.
This has got to be the best one page description of Indian middle class.
Harkol,
>>Why is it wanting to have rule of law is equal to being anti-national?
Why don’t we teach the rule of law lessons to Naxalites and Islamists in Kashmir . Why does the secular, liberal, progressive tribe root for discussions with these traitors beyond the scope of constitution and the laws of the land.
its quite interesting..(well also disgusting) to see the die hard attempt been made by the author of branding the middle class by twisted logic and analogies which somehow is of no find anywhere else outside gujarat !! as this is the very first case of fake encounters ever happened in the whole country.. haa haa quite funny. well if its the vibrant middle class is the reason why gujarat is progressing leaps and bounds at the rate of 10% from last few years than i guess surely gujarati middle class is a big culprit as progressive mindset and opposing votebank politics is still a big crime as per the rest of the india OR may be for the the few like this author who are the fake representatives of the rest of the india.
hahaha, what a joke.. I grow tired of hypocrisy from journalists, one one hand condoning bifurcation on basis of caste and on the other hand they themselves happily bifurcate the society on different grounds, let us see now,
Upper class, lower class, middle class, working class, administration class, merit class, reservation quota class, feminism, chauvinism, extremism, terrorism, liberals, religious bifurcation, linguism, regionalism, political system based bifurcation….etc.
Unfortunately, under the name of equality each of the above bifurcations are allotted different sets of rights, differents sets of laws…
We have made it impossible to achieve equality, let alone unity! And in all this chaos, the free usage of jargon such as like hinduism n criminals and patriotism and freedom etc…
HAHAHAHAHAHA…
churumuri does provide awesome humour in the form of its writers!
harkol :
Can you tell me where he has been ‘glorified’? Why is it wanting to have rule of law is equal to being anti-national?
– dude do you just virtually exist at churmuri and you don’t ever sneak out in the real world ? as any person who is able to see the bigger picture can tell you that the way this case is being singled out and hyped by media is not in the best public interest whatsoever. there were numerous bold claims have been made against rahul and sonia gandhi (backed with factual arguments and documents) like – sonia and other gandhis taking KGB money , rahul gandhi’s false claims of attending harvard, sonia getting into india’s voters list while not being indian citizen (its a fact with documents and proofs backing it and its a criminal offense as per indian laws), but systematically the attempts of bringing attention of indian ppl to these crimes of gandhi family have been supressed during UPA govt rule.
coming to CBI, surprisingly during UPA rule of last few years these events have occured which might be just a coincidence!! do your due dilligence
– CBI threw away the files of the cases against sonia it had prepared between 1995 and 2003.
– Most of the witnesses of lalu fodder scam mysteriously commited suicide or died in road accidents.. (somehow.. NO investigation is needed there)
– cental govt made sure that they serve well to quottrochis by releasing orders to un-freeze their london accounts which allowed quottrochis to safely transfer the balances to their safe heavens
– CBI recently mentioned there are seeking dismissal of the cases against quottrochi as now there are not finding any strong evidence against him!!
@das
I for one would definitely like to know what else figures in your list of “moral” rights?
YOU ARE QUITE A LOSER, ABUSING CRORERS OF MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE. YOU MUST BE IN STATE OF DENIAL TO GUJARATS DEVELOPMENT, OR ( YOU ARE IRRITATED BY ALWAYS HEARING ABOUT DEVELOPMENT IN GUJARAT). HA HA HA.. GET WELL SOON
Sohrabuddin is not glorified? When a history sheeter with crimes of all kinds in five states is called a “young man” by the media, completely ignoring his record-what is that if not to glory in his innocence?
I wonder what kind of law abiding gentlemen jump up and down trying to pin the guilty tag on a man who has not been proven guilty in our courts?
The CBI shares the chargesheet with the media even before it sends it to the accused’s lawyers? What is that?
Modi is called a killer when Amit Shah has been charged? What is that??
Of course J. Sharma is an imbecile. Now im not that confident about most commenters so far too.
Sad, yes?
Oh the silly Indian Middle Class, it sees through the propaganda of us the low-IQ jhollawahas!
Jaspal:
>as any person who is able to see the bigger picture
I see the big picture, that’s why I am asking you – Why highlighting a case of extra-judicial, extra-constitutional killing is glorifying the killed person?
Show me some articles which praised or glorified Sohrabuddin. Just because he was a bad ass, doesn’t mean he could be killed.
If you accept that then it is you who is missing the big picture!
And then you jump to a lot of conspiracy theories!! How is it connected to Glorifying Sohrabuddin? Classic Lalu defense? Talk something else when you can’t talk subject…
If proof exists then nothing stops anyone from filing a PIL in Supreme court (unless of course Supreme court also is in the pocket of Gandhis!! Both Sonia and Rahul being MPs are required to file affidavits (Sworn testimony) on their education status, which if proven false, is an imprison-able offense.
And people have filed cases and Supreme court has repeatedly thrown out cases against Sonia Gandhi, on the grounds that it is totally baseless (meaning without any evidential foundation).
This is not to say there may not be black deeds in Sonia’s past. Quottrochi’s case seems murky. There may be others as well.
But, then we don’t have many political leaders who doesn’t have some alleged ‘past’. From yediyurappa’s wife being drawned in 4ft tank, to Colorful Mahajans we have so many conspiracy theories.
Just being able to spew conspiracy theories doesn’t constitute visions of Big picture. Neither does it prove a point of ‘glorification’
***
Vikas:
>Why does the secular, liberal, progressive tribe root for discussions with these traitors beyond the scope of constitution and the laws of the land.
As I said earlier, there are extremely small number of cases, where fugitives may need to be killed extra-judicially. Law permits that in rarest of rare cases – Maoists, veerappan etc. fall in to that category,
There was a bounty on Veerappan’s head. If Govt. wants someone dead or alive, then it can declare a person as fugitive – Giving him a chance to fight that status in court, and then if he gets killed no one will question.
Same is the case with Maoists. If there are specific individuals to be targetted, Govt. can do so by declaring them offenders and putting a bounty on their head.
But, even when these fugitives are hunted down, law requires an inquiry as to the circumstances of killing. For example, in Veerappan pursuit many members of SIT were indicted for Killing Innocent Tribals.
Most of the so called ‘encounter killings’ people are named terrorist post-encounter. No proof gets presented before or after as to why they were terrorists, who couldn’t have been tried by a court. If someone is a criminal, that doesn’t make him a fugitive.
It is quite possible that some people open fire at police and police retaliate. But, such cases have to be carefully investigated and if found fishy (as in case of Sohrabuddin etc.) It’ll need to be prosecuted.
Otherwise, there is nothing that can stop a policeman from coming to my house, shooting my family and claiming we were terrorists who attacked him!!
This is not some liberal harangue. This is essential for India to be a civilized, democratic country.
jaspal,
Dude, you didnt answer harkol’s question. All you did was make some irrelevant attack on him and then wrote some unrelated things.
Let me ask them again:
Can you tell me where he has been ‘glorified’? Why is it wanting to have rule of law is equal to being anti-national?
What harkol does in his spare time does not matter
What do you mean by ‘Silly Middle Class”? As if other classes are great! And, how do you say only middle class like him? I agree Prajwal. Churumuri does present few hypocrite bunch of buffoons in the form of writers.
where is justice for our deadly soma? arrest the home minister of that time and call the then cm a murderer just because he was the cm. let the us start a movement called JUSTICE FOR SOMA.
How can anyone murder Sohrabuddin and Ishrat Jahaan in cold blood? This is gross injustice. It should be the other way around. In secuular India, they (SB and IJ) have full rights to muder and kill innocent people, especially the middle class, who according to the journalist are the parasites sticking to the surface of the country…bravo!!!! makes me wonder which class Jyotirmaya Sharma falls in to? Do not underestimate the middle class, I foresee a day when they will be up in arms against the injustice done to them by the secular politicians of the country and the biased so-called journalists such as Sharma. Who needs enemies when you have such journalists?
Coming back to SB and IJ, police should have arrested them as they had done with Afzal Guru and Ajmal Kasab. Come on, after all they are also (in)human and deserve a fair trail. So what if it takes decades to convict them or their mercy petition lies with the president forever. So what if someone hijacks a flight and diverts it to Kandahar and they are released in exchange with the passengers. wtf…
Sohrabuddin has been glorified and made a martyr to the cause of secularism much the same way as Kashmiri rage boys are being projected today.
Those who deny this fact and close their eyes in the fond hope that their weak arguments will not be seen through – are the real partisans.
Which media has delved into the fact that Sohrabuddin was a criminal/killer of the first order? That he had powerful protectors and that’s what kept him out of the prosecutor’s hands? Which media has condemned the inaction of so many state govts that tolerated the longish reign of Sohrabuddin and his gang?
What about fellow commenters here? They have not bothered to dwell on the “innocence until proven guilty” maxim at all when it comes to Amit Shah and Modi.
The fact that Modi’s name pops up speaks to the so called non-partisan nature of debates when it comes to Gujarat.
If you want to be seen as fair, then show you are fair. You will then be treated to fair ears.
This is the first case of a “fake encounter” amongst well over a thousand that has come to court. If this were not about Modi, even this case would not have come up. Does mr harkol, who speaks of courts rubbishing conspiracy “theoris” have anything to say about this little fact?
Frankly, i don’t also understand ppl when they berate churumuri for its selection of silly authors. They need to cater to customers tastes right?
***
“Young Muslim boy” is what the media calls Sohrabuddin. Nothing more, nothing less.
Suggestions.
Veerappan – “oldish yoga expert”?
The odd terrorist – “deeply troubled non-state introvert”?
the guys who chopped off prof thomas’ hand – thinking…any suggestions from the non partisans :))) here?
tortured sadhvi pragya etc – terrorist! facsist! killer hindu! (still to be proved in court) but totured nevertheless. anything if the (guilty) carry a hindu name.
modi – god himself came down and pronounced him guilty in my ear. but in my ear and in my ear and in my ear. that’s enuf for me
Simran:
>history sheeter with crimes of all kinds in five states is called a “young man” by the media,
Don’t know who called him an Young man, but if they did – is it glorifying him?? Sohrabuddin’s shady past was published by many papers/magazines, but a news report can’t call him a criminal or a terrorist unless he has been convicted by a court.
***
Simran/Jaspal:
You guys are simply barking up the wrong tree…
Check this recent article : http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/who-was-sohrabuddin-sheikh-39280
There are innumerable articles which had mentioned that Sohrabudin’s shady past. But, none of them can definitively say he is a criminal, unless he is convicted. It is against the journalistic norms.
Besides, None of you care to say anything about Kasur Bi, his wife. Was she a terrorist too??
>They have not bothered to dwell on the “innocence until proven guilty” maxim at all when it comes to Amit Shah and Modi.
Please check my post in the thread where Churumuri asked if the net is closing in on Modi – I had said, that’s a ridiculous question for it assumes Modi is guilty!
But, no one can say Amit Shah or Modi shouldn’t be investigated (as BJP is insisting). That’s putting a few people above law…
We don’t know if these folks are guilty, what we know is two people were shot dead, and Gujarat govt. admitted it was a fake encounter.
That is where facts stand.
harkol, pls compare “young man” to what amit shah has been called. there is not even a single criminal record against shah. of course the media and especially the elm has glorified sohrabuddin’s innocence. even you seem unable to ask the right questions about this man.
why was he free till the day he was killed?
“It is against the journalistic norms.” – True. now pls apply the same standard to amit shah and modi.
what about kausar bi? Do you know the court has not accepted her death as fact?
who’s against investigations? but pls explain how the media got hold of the chargesheet before even the accused?
So after 60 years of “development” and 20 years of 8+ percent GDP growth, Indian middle-class is only upper-caste Hindus? This is a huge indictment of the Congress and the UPA.
>It calls Hinduism as a way of life but is oblivious as to whose way of life it is or who determines Hinduism.
Why should anybody “determine” Hinduism? Why this need to conform to Abrahamic relgious traditions that somebody “determines” what is Hinduism? Such a inane statement…
Let me tell you in plain and simple words why (we?) middle class likes Modi. I will start by asking ‘why not’. Who should we, if not politicians, do you say bureaucrats? The less we talk better it is, it is this community which is spoiling this country along with Police, Public Prosecutors, Media men, Judges and a whole lot of govt officials in all walks ok life. Have you ever seen a Lawyer pulled up for wrong doing by a policeman? A govt car/vehicle for that matter of fact? An SRTC bus for rash driving, wrong parking etc., has any school management pulled up for blatant misuse of school for profit making? They are all hand in glove and they are making the politicians dance to their tunes.
Should we idolise Media men? Ha ha ha, we have seen how news is bought and paid for, today paper and TV media are opinion creators and not opinion presenters. We have Chrumuri right here, how unbiased is it?
People will idolise anyone who makes their life less complicated, i.e. ‘Zero’ corruption at grounds level and equal treatment of Law for everyone. To a large extent that is prevailing in Gujarat.
The main problem with the media is the reluctance to print articles with a fair and unbiased mind.
Samples of Headlines :- “Skeletons tumble from Modi’s cupboard” etc.
Acc to me NaMo has been the target of various ‘human rights org ‘; and the ‘civil’ society. Unfairly. No one in the media has highlighted the new revelations in the Ishrat Jehan case made so by David Headley.
And do u guys know 1 more thing- that Teesta Setalvad , the founder of CJP , a ‘liberal’ H.R.O was responsible for cooking up the alleged incidents which happened during the riots. None of this has got the adequate coverage in the Mainstream media. Which highlights the fact that some media outlets are biased, unprofessional and not worthy of respect.
Simran:
>“It is against the journalistic norms.” – True. now pls apply the same standard to amit shah and modi.
Would be greatful if you can post any mainstream newspaper or TV channel report which called Amit Shah or Modi a criminal/terrorist or any other adjectives of the sort, without qualifying it as ‘alleged’ or something similar.
Similarly, do forward me any articles that ‘glorified’ Sohrabuddin.
>what about kausar bi?
Indeed. Courts haven’t accepted her alleged murder yet. But, she has certainly vanished without a trace.
>but pls explain how the media got hold of the chargesheet before even the accused?
That’s media’s job to keep looking out for news. That doesn’t mean anything.
For example – HDFC knew of the approval of my company registration and got in touch with me for an account opening, even before I got an intimation from MCA. Apparently, HDFC employs people to keep scanning the MCA website!
Dear harkol, I have to say sorry.
I cannot furnish freely available information to you. It’s a waste of my time.
It would be easier for you to assert that the media has been fair in the reporting of Amit Shah & Modi.
As far as sohrabuddin is concerned, I have said that the media and anti-Modi political class have gloried in his innocence by not dwelling and asking the right questions about his long criminality. Even you have not done it.
I thought you said kausar bi is dead already. In fact you also wanted to know what her fault was that she got killed. Now you speculate about her vanishing?
just a thought. do I now have enough reason to doubt your own sense of fair play and therefore understand why you defend the indefensible media nautanki?
So you mean to say the CBI had this chargesheet out on its website? Or are they in the habit of dropping leaflets from aircrafts? Instead of facing the most simple and uncomplicated probability which is CBI sharing this info with select media friends, you would like us to belive media did circus to get at the chargesheet and that too before it reached the accused?
C’mon harkol.
btw, im not too sure you have read this piece. http://www.indianexpress.com/news/desperate-congresss-votebank-politicssame-way-its-trying-to-protect-afzal-guru/655825/
Simran:
>It’s a waste of my time.
Well, we all seem to be wasting our time anyway. The bottomline is newspapers quote officials. And then they publish opinions or News analysis by Individuals. Papers publish opinions & Counter opinions. No one stops you from writing for a paper.
That’s how newspapers work worldwide. They don’t glorify a victim, neither do they denigrate a man by publishing what they think is news. If someone has a grouse they can use libel action against them.
>I thought you said kausar bi is dead already.
Did I say that? Where? Now you are being paranoid and accusing me of something I didn’t do!
All I said was something seems to have happened to Kasur. Witnesses have given statements saying she was burnt, though it isn’t proven in court, the news papers won’t be wrong to publish that – because, what is undisputed is she has vanished.
Perhaps it is normal for the wife of a person, murdered in a ‘fake encounter’ (which is not disputed by even state govt.), to disappear without a trace?
Why do I get this feeling that you really wanted someone like Sohrabuddin murdered! I can almost see a cheer-girl cheering for the folks who may have murdered someone in an extra-judicial way!!
>have gloried in his innocence by not dwelling and asking the right questions about his long criminality
This is a strange argument to say the least. I for one knew that Sohrabuddin’s character was questionable, ever since I read about him the first time. Same goes for Ishrat, as her circumstances were do not make it clear she wasn’t mixed up in something. When I read about Ishrat the news item sounded more like it was an encounter and they fought and died. But, later there was skepticism about police story. Even to date, we aren’t sure if she was a terrorist or not – for that’s not proven. But, what is not disputed is – She was killed in an extra-judicial process.
Just as these papers had to bring up the possibility that these folks may have had some murky past, they also have to bring up the facts that, they may have been innocent (like Ishrat’s relatives account etc.).
Questioning the motives of the media is the easiest tack followed by who ever has been accused! When Headlines today broadcast the video of Abhinav Bharat Conspiracy. BJP representatives asked – Why did Headlines today broadcast the video? What is the motive?! Then a bunch of people attack and thrash the Studio.
In other words, when some one accuses you of something, with fair degree of prima facie evidence, question his motives, instead of addressing the allegation!!
***
***
Simran:
>btw, im not too sure you have read this piece.
The article seems to be an anti-thesis of your allegations against the media!! ;-)
harkol, i do not wish to disturb your full confidence in our media’s sense of ethics and fair play.
you say newspapers quotes officials. in this case that wud be cbi. that means cbi has been speaking to the press instead of communicating to the accused and lawyers. my point was is that fair?
the absense of libel suits does not mean the act has been ethical.
you asked me if kausar was a terrorist too? if i am a reasonably intelligent person i wud understand that to mean “why was kausar killed too?”
why not admit this plainly? because it wouldnt look impartial? :)
why are you avoiding the basic question about sohrabuddin? that he was free till the day he was killed. why was he free? who was protecting him? why wud the police not bring him to a judge and instead kill him? if they did that to bag an award, is it safe to say that other state govts were protecting him because he was benefiting them?
ishrat jahan has been cited in the LeT website and recently the same has been confirmed by headley. of course all these are liars.
they may have to bring up the “facts” that they were innocent? really? now these are facts? why? how? who has proved LeT and Headley wrong?
fyi, in ishrat jahan’s case it was the central intelligence that fed gujarat police. not the other way round.
if the media is really fair and is interested in facts, then they will be DIS-interested in their reports. they will report plainly and without hype. that is not the case.
only recently there is the case of ndtv manipulating a pti report about an assault in kerala. the original pti output never mentioned any group. but dear unfair media such as ndtv reproduces the very same report and inserts the possibility that these were rss/bjp workers. how? why? any reason? wud you have a rational explanation for such “fair” displays of reportage?
why are you so surpeised that ppl are angry with the media? so if someone is angry then that person is rss/bjp? i think it is.
please read that article. that one piece did not make indian express an “organiser”. pls read the piece by the former head of IB.
caution – he too might be a closet rss/bjp fellow.
Simran:
>you asked me if kausar was a terrorist too? if i am a reasonably intelligent person i wud understand that to mean “why was kausar killed too?”
I am not going to doubt your intelligence – and its only right for you to arrive at your conclusions. Most of the time, There is no clear explanations as to why we like or dislike somethings – we just do.
But, when you accuse me of saying something that I haven’t said, you are acting on your perceptions rather than facts. Where you confuse your opinions to be facts – Similar to the statement that media glorifies criminals.
Written word is complex, for it can’t communicate all that we think/feel. So, it is possible to misread the intentions and confuse facts. So, we should give a lot of latitude in accusing someone with serious acts like glorifying criminals.
>your full confidence in our media’s sense of ethics and fair play.
I don’t have full confidence in all of our media. I find their coverage occasionally going over the top.
But overall, the so called ‘left liberal’ media (NDTV among them) are more somber in the way they report, though overall journalistic quality can improve.
But, my objections is to painting the whole media in general and say they “glorify” criminals/terrorists.
>my point was is that fair?
I didn’t realize that a charge sheet by a state agency is a secret. Or that an FIR/complaint filed in a Police station. Is it really?
Police may want to keep some parts of their investigations a secret, but that’s their discretion.
But, I agree that our institutions rarely play fair. They are in the hands of their political masters. We have had law minister of this country give out a letter to a foreign country to help out a foreign individual to escape all charges of Bofors and also collect on his ill gotten money.
We have had Yediyurappa proclaim the innocence of Bellary Gang in public, and his Home minister revoke 11 criminal cases against them – siting discretionary powers. So – no investigation or judicial process on FIRs lodged by a citizen.
No – all this isn’t fair at all. But, what that’s got to do with your paranoid statement of ‘glorification’ of criminals by media?
>possibility that these were rss/bjp worker
RSS/BJP can sue NDTV for libel, and demand an apology, if the facts are otherwise.
>surpeised that ppl are angry with the media?
Who is surprised? Some folks have got angry on a ‘lost supper’ cartoon. Some people get angry if a paper says someone ‘may be’ innocent. Some get angry with Media for catching their leaders accepting bribes or trying to sell their vote.
You are arguing with me over here, because I don’t agree with you – So, why should anyone be surprised?
If we all thought similarly, then we’d be drones.
I am just trying to make sense of how you so confidently state media glorified Sohrabuddin.
>did not make indian express an “organiser”
So, the benchmark is ‘organizer’?? I think I get it now. :)
This piece in IE is an opinion piece. They could publish another counter opinion that can make out a case why Sohrabuddin wasn’t a criminal. That doesn’t mean IE would glorify – it just presents to intelligent people like you a perspective and a choice to believe what you would.
harkol,
what did you then infact say with regards to kausar bi?
yes. i assert that mainstream media glorifies/covers for terrorists/criminals who belong to the muslim minority.
on the chargesheet, i gather you are argueing just for the sake of it. Hype was created in the media before the chargesheet was filed. the chargesheet btw is not filed in police stations. it is filed with the courts.
simple question. how did the media get the chargesheet before the accused and lawyers? hope you dont come up with more inane fantasies.
on rss/bjp – “if” the facts are otherwise? what does this mean? do you mean to say media can brazenly accuse and impute and then dare the victim to file suite? and until then the media shud get benefit of the doubt?
i also gather you have not read that piece by doval.
“Beware of half truths — because you may be holding the wrong half. After having seen and read so much about the Sohrabuddin episode in the last five years, one might believe one knows it all. Sohrabuddin is now cast as an innocent victim of police excess.”
mainstream media has lost its credibility completely. attempts to prop it up shud be based on some sort of reasonable basis. when arguments are made without even that reasonable basis it is clear that there is much to be ashamed of.
thank you
>what did you then infact say with regards to kausar bi
I was wondering why she is out of the radar of people who argue Sohrabuddin encounter was justified. Even if the argument that Sohrabuddin was a victim of his own crimes is accepted, she certainly wasn’t?
At best, she is a widow – perhaps a witness in this case, running for covering her life from the fake-encounter specialists? At worst – she is dead, perhaps murdered by same encounter heroes!
In either case, it reflects poorly on the protection law provides to innocents in our country, and our sense of justification in extra-judicial actions.
>hope you dont come up with more inane fantasies.
Heh! You under-estimate the power of News networks and Journalists. These folks are fanatical about what they do, and go to any length to get a story. Otherwise, who in their right mind be covering a battlefield, or expose all powerful politicians/muscle men?
And it isn’t inane fantasy to know how people do get the information they need, without breaking the law – I gave you the example of MCA-HDFC.
If there was a violation of law in points of chargesheet being discussed with press, then it should be punishable. So I ask you again – Is it? I don’t see anyone sighting any violation of law or rules.
How about police press conferences, where they claim to have cracked a case, or arrested key suspects? They tell the whole world how the crime was committed – Surely, those information too would then be part of chargesheet? So, if they are doing something wrong, then they would have been punished?
I am fairly certain there is nothing unusual in Police sharing information they have about an accused. It doesn’t even have to be termed a leak!
>Sohrabuddin is now cast as an innocent victim of police excess
oh lord! I ask you again. Where did anyone say he was an ‘innocent’ victim?
AllI have read is he is a ‘victim’. And of that there is no argument, after all – HE IS DEAD, WITHOUT A TRIAL, IN A FAKE ENCOUNTER.
harkol,
“In either case, it reflects poorly on the protection law provides to innocents in our country, and our sense of justification in extra-judicial actions.”
Really? Why do you think ppl support extra-judicial actions? Do you think ordinary citizens who do are more blood thirsty than scumbags like sohrabuddin who get killed? that’s what i mean when i say you never ask the right questions. Why?
“HE IS DEAD, WITHOUT A TRIAL, IN A FAKE ENCOUNTER.” – Good riddance.
>Why do you think ppl support extra-judicial actions?
‘ppl’ don’t. You and a few do.
A republic is about primacy of rule of law. Just because a set violates law, we can’t have others and especially state violate it too. Let them do that and then you won’t have anyone to save you either. Pakistan, Bangla, Srilanka have all gone thru this ‘quick justice’ phases, and all ended pretty bad.
>Good riddance.
“..then they came for me..”
***
i say you never ask the right questions. Why?
Here are a few right questions.
1. Do you subscribe to Indian Constitution? Answer this after having read article 21.
If your answer is NO : then rest of the questions don’t matter – You apparently would believe in law of the jungle, so, I have no argument with you. I wish you good luck for the time you are taken to a police station for a traffic violation or such.
2. Should a govt. which is proven to have violated the foundations of the constitution of India be allowed to continue?
3. If a govt. is accused of violating constitution of India, is it essential for an investigation to be done?
4. Can a state govt. say “yes there was a fake encounter” and escape further scrutiny?
5. Can a govt. minister be above the law established under constitution of India? Can he hide under the pretext of ‘political vendetta’, when serious accusations are made?
6. Do we believe in Article 19a of Constitution, as interpreted by our Supreme court in Maneka Gandhi v. Union of India? If we do, why we think press coverage of a CBI case against a minister is wrong?
7. If we don’t believe in Article 19a, why can’t I ask you to shut up?
:-)
harkol:
we are going round in circles. recently on the ftn show by sagarika ghosh, she ran a poll on how many ppl support fake encounters. guess what %age supported it? do you have any figures to show otherwise?
when overwhelming numbers support fake encounters this does not mean they have become lawless beasts or terrorists. only a terribly twisted morality can label them in such terms.
i don’t know what you wish to convey when you refer to pak, bangla. at least lanka, if it had held on to your so called standards, prabhakaran would have been sitting in colombo by now.
then he and his cohorts would have surely come for you.
Art 21 – “21. No person shall be deprived of his life or personal
liberty except according to procedure established by law.”
my life and my liberty is threatened by the sohrabuddins roaming freely in my society. if the gujarat govt has ended the menace, i applaud it. i also want to know what the other govts were doing till the date he was killed? why did they not protect my brothers and sisters lives and liberties that were trampled upon by sohrabuddin and his pals and employers amongst others, dawood ibrahim and abdul latif? i want to know from you. pls answer me.
2. Should a govt. which is proven to have violated the foundations of the constitution of India be allowed to continue?
where has this been proven? pls adhere to your own principles and show me where it has been proven. in the meanwhile i shall provide you numerous instances of where govts have violated the foundations of the constitution in not protecting me and mine life and liberty and have been allowed to continue. are you game?
3. If a govt. is accused of violating constitution of India, is it essential for an investigation to be done?
pls decide. is it a proven fact or is it an accusation? have you even read the chargesheet?
4. Can a state govt. say “yes there was a fake encounter” and escape further scrutiny?
yes. it can say “there was a fake encounter”. where has it escaped scrutiny?
what do you mean by “escape further scrutiny”? or are you trying to say of the over a thousand reported fake encounters across the country – majority of them in non-bjp ruled states btw- only the gujarat govt is “trying to escape scrutiny”?
5. Can a govt. minister be above the law established under constitution of India? Can he hide under the pretext of ‘political vendetta’, when serious accusations are made?
only a fool will try to hide under the “pretext” of political vendetta. amit shah, as you will agree, is not a fool. on the other hand is it not a fact that the cbi has decided to pursue only this case of fake encounter and has not moved on the andhra and rajasthan legs of this episode? why?
also tell me why the over 400 such cases in maharashtra are languishing and cry out for the cbi’s attentions? these are not being paid heed to.
there are over 700 such cases in uttar pradesh. what has the cbi done there?
i’d take a wild guess bihar is lily white.
maybe you want to discuss the cbi cases against mayawati and laloo and how they “vanished”? quotrocchi is old hat. an old pal, no?
who has said the minister is above the law? dont spread false propaganda even out of ignorance.
6. Article 19a – to freedom of speech and expression
i, as a paying customer of paid media, am fully entitled to expect honest and impartial coverage of news. when i see this paid media not even interviewing (forget about grilling) their goddess and godson who are the acclaimed and unabashed bosses of the poor sod of a PM of my country and instead are seen grovelling and doing their bidding as is even now being done in the cwg scam – see shekhar gupta etc…..
…i am being deprived of my freedom of speech and expression because the purveyors of information, that is, the acclaimed but prostituted fourth estate, have become corrupt and decayed.
so, dear harkol, what exactly are you talking about? are we even living on the same planet?
> ftn show by sagarika ghosh
You mean the representative of the very media that ‘glorifies’ criminals?
>guess what %age supported it? do you have any figures to show otherwise?
It won’t matter what a studio audience claims, for as I said – they don’t constitute the majority. It is easy to get an answer you want, if you present an argument to a crowd, without the downside…
Ask the same crowd, how many of them want ‘law of the jungle’ instead of law of our republic, and see the answers.
And in case Majority of India wants to support Killing outside of law, even then it won’t be permissible! That’s the beauty of a republic. You aren’t governed by majority, but by law.
Otherwise we’d become a mobocracy, ruled by Tyranny of Majority opinion, which at times bays for blood.
>what you wish to convey when you refer to pak, bangla
Why just Pak, bangla? We had a brush with Quick Justice system in India too in 1970s, when Indira gandhi declared emergency… basically your rights are suspended, and you can be punished without any trial.
>my life and my liberty is threatened by the sohrabuddins roaming freely in my society
You life was threatened? how? And did you complain? Try and get protection from police?
This is a crap argument. This argument only works well when someone else gets killed. If you want Vigilante system, and bay for blood, don’t be surprised if your ‘brothers and sisters’ are killed by the very same police on a false premise.
>where has this been proven
hmmm.. I thought you didn’t believe in the burden of proof… ;-)
>pls adhere to your own principles and show me where it has been proven
I haven’t said it has been proven. But, to prove it there has to be an investigation, and a court case. That’s where it is.
I was asking a ‘right question’. If it is proven that gujarat govt. was complicit in a fake encounter, violating constitution of India, should it be allowed to continue?
I guess I have your answer – you have already applauded the Gujarat govt. crediting it with this fake encounter.
>where govts have violated the foundations of the constitution in not protecting me and mine life and liberty. are you game?
Please go ahead. But, don’t give me a crap argument that if criminals exist in our midst, its equal to violation of constitution!!! A govt. takes an oath of office to uphold the constitution – Not to be your personal bodyguard. If the law and order situation is so bad that there is no security, then you are free to kick out the govt. and bring in some other.
So, if there was indeed a genuine, proven violation of constitution by a govt., such a govt. – irrespective of which party, should be dismissed, and a fresh elections held.
>400 such cases in maharashtra are languishing and cry out for the cbi’s attentions?
Someone moved Supreme Court in case of Sohrabuddin and asked for a CBI investigation. No one stops you from doing the same, if there are enough evidence of ‘fake encounter’. Supreme court has the powers to order a CBI investigation, even without Central/state govts ordering one.
>over a thousand reported fake encounters
Every encounter death is non-judicial, and has to be carefully and independently analysed. If it is confirmed to be ‘fake encounter’ (as in case of Sohrabuddin), then people involved must pay. BJP or otherwise.
>cbi has decided to pursue
Get your facts right. CBI didn’t decide to pursue anything, and it couldn’t have even if it had wanted to, without state govt. permission.
It is the Supreme Court of the land which directed CBI to pursue, and is directly monitoring progress.
>quotrocchi is old hat. an old pal, no?
I don’t know why you want to justify Gujarat govt. with unjustifiable acts of congress or other institutions. Two wrongs surely don’t make a right.
This is the classic defense BJPwalas use now a days. After taking my vote for over a decade with ‘party with a difference’ slogan, now they say ‘look, congress did the same’. Why the heck do I have to vote for BJP if congress can do it better?
>who has said the minister is above the law? dont spread false propaganda even out of ignorance.
You told me to ask the ‘right questions’. Not ‘convenient questions’.
You applauded the Guj. Govt and ministers for killing a man extra-judicially, and was not happy with they being investigated/prosecuted. BJP doesn’t want it either.
>i am being deprived of my freedom of speech and expression
ha ha ha! You surely jest madam.
If a paper expresses its opinion, then your freedom of speech is deprived!! Don’t even know where to begin on this one!
What do you think is Panchajanya? Or Organizer? Or Saamna? They are manifestation of Freedom of expression!
If you are a paying customer, pay to the ones that talk the language you want to hear.
There may be others who want to hear different, and they can buy these newspapers and channels.
Just because you don’t like what some newspapers say, they don’t become conspirators in ‘glorifying’ criminals.
Oh BTW, who stops you from starting a newspaper?? Or from making a big blog. This is India, not china. Your freedom of expression is safe.
>are we even living on the same planet?
Apparently not. You seem to be living in a authoritarian, non-constitutional world. Perhaps someone like Akbar/Shivaji is the ruler, who could satisfy your need for instant justice well – where they say ‘off with your head’ and anyone can be killed.
In 1947, in India we changed that. Not even President or PM of India, can order an unarmed person killed. leave alone your lowly minister of Gujrat.
Only exception to this rule is when someone engages in rioting (shoot to kill orders) or in situation of war.
Welcome to my world, if only you’d leave your medieval one.
I DON’T EVEN HAVE TO READ THIS ARTICLE TO SEE HOW STUPID IT IS….THE TITLE SAYS IT ALL.
THIS IS WRITER, IS ANOTHER “ANTI-NATIONAL” LOSER….
NARENDRA MODI IS THE GREATEST OF THE GREATEST….
I HOPE TO SEE HIM RULE ALL OF INDIA ONE DAY…
GOD BLESS MODIJI…
GOD BLESS INDIA…
GOD BLESS BJP…
JAI HIND.
harkol, im so tired yaar. why is it soo difficult to understand simple things for you?
1. i have the right to use sagarika’s show against hers and your arguments.
2. the audience responded to the question asked. not happy? too bad.
3. well, the crowd was not asked if they supported “law of the jungle”. if they were they wud prolly say “No”. but what gives you the idea they wud oppose fake encounters?
4. if in this republic we were indeed governed by law, then fake encounters wud not be necessary. relook the law.
5. well, believe it or not, democracy is all about rule of majority. the majority wants killers killed. that’s why no matter what party, the killers are getting killed. only when they live a little longer do you sense that the killers are paying their would be killers. so, why did sohrabuddin live so long when his master abdul latif was killed by non-bjp party govts?
6. this is new. the emergency was “quick justice system”? let’s assume it indeed was and that innocents were no longer being molested by marauders – i’d support it. relook the law.
7. why shud i run to the police for protection? why can your republic not assure me my safety wherever i am? threats to my life don’t come with a notice period. they come when they know your republic’s laws are bunk.
8. if my innocent brothers and sisters are killed by the same police then i will hold you and your republic responsible. why? because the police system is not populated by habitual killers. they are driven to it by the impotence of your republic’s justice systems. relook the law.
9. what makes you think i have forsaken proof? ignoring evidence is a hobby horse of the republic’s door keepers these days.
10. so let them investigate.
11. “if” it is proven, we’ll see.
12. oh yes. i applaud anybody who sees scum like sohrabuddin bite the dust.
13. if criminals continue to exist, of course it is a violation of my constitutional right! the reason the gujarat govt conitiues is because i keep bringing it back because it ensures innocents dont suffer. but then your not happy with that also.
14. and you seem to be sure that in this litigant country, no one moved the supreme court from maharashtra? not one from the family of over 400 killed in fake encounters? kindly check with the human rights commission.
15. you seem so clueless. the 1000 odd figure is from the human rights commisson that has already found reason to belive these were fake encounters. the cbi is sleeping over all of them but one. why? bcz they smell modi’s blood. that’s why.
16. perhaps it is also the supreme court that directs the cbi to give the press their information? perhaps. bcz in the arushi case the supreme court decided on a gag order. your republic is already stinking.
17. which two wrongs are you talking about? i see only one wrong. the quotrocchi wrong. but why are you defending it?
18. of course the CON can do it better. see, no fake encounter cases at all!
next time, vote for CON.
19. ask right questions. dont impute.
20. so not being happy with it and not wanting it are the same? logic yelappa?
21. Thanks for confirming the so called mainstream media are nothing but party organs of her majesty’s party. i dont think you shud talk about media objectivity, free press and such any more. sounds bad.
22. i wud want to start a paper. do you think your party can fund? i’ll promise to support it.
23. akbar/shivaji (?) nice to hear you take your levels of political correctness to bed.
So my humble submission is this – pls don’t expect the common man to revere your republic when your republic does nothing to protect him from crooks and killers. at some point, the common man will begin to support ppl who take law into their own hands and end the menace. your otherwise impotent republic may yet strangle the hero but many more will come until your republic mends its ways.
@Harkol:
You are one hell of a indefatigable debater. Take a bow!
@Simran:
I must say you are infinite times better than folks who do the CAPS-LOCK hatchet job:). You atleast debate!
Thoroughly enjoyed your pow-wow..