Jaithirth Rao in The Indian Express:
“I think it is a mistake to categorise India as a soft state. It is certainly not a hard one. It is a flexible one with a deep survival instinct. Our science teacher in school would tell us that grass blows with the breeze but never gets uprooted however strong the winds. A big tree which does not bend or blow can and sometimes does fall down in a severe storm.
“The Republic of India and our political leaders (who, despite all their faults, need to be admired) are like grass. They have figured out that a good-cop bad-cop approach works. Sometimes we do have to use the army against some alienated groups. But even as one set of leaders are behind that effort, another set is offering an olive branch to that same group.
“Our greatest contemporary intellectual refers to Indians as an argumentative people. I think we can refer to our country as a “talking republic”. And that central fact is of great importance. Binary either-or solutions, while attractive on the surface, could easily destroy our country.
“We need both efficient toughies and talking softies. We never need to make fundamental concessions that we find unpalatable. Holding our own while talking and talking about talking is what this big fat democratic Indian republican party is about. The combination has kept us together, and hopefully it will continue to do so.”
Read the full article: Solid state theories
Also read: What if India hadn’t been partitioned in 1947?
‘We drink in our caste in our mother’s milk’
I entirely agree with J.Rao. We can’t be opressive or give-in on Kashmir – so keep talking. Same with so many other Domestic groups. And with Pakistan we’ll have to do the same as well, till they come around to accepting what we can give.
Alternatives are more damaging.
Silly ol’ fart!
We are used to living like this!
“A beggar to another beggar: I had a grand dinner at Taj yesterday.
How? The other beggar asked.
We are used to living like this!
First beggar: Some one gave me a Rs 100/- note yesterday.
I went to Taj and ordered dinner worth Rs 1,000/-,
And enjoyed the dinner. When the bill came, I said, I had no money.
The Taj manager called the policeman, and handed me over to him.
I gave the Rs 100/- note to the police fellow, and he set me free.”
The way forward is through sincere dialogue only.
I am from the second generation which havent seen the partition holocaust, and hence there is no baggage being carried.
I feel that India previously thought that Pakistan could be really set up for splintering into pieces, and acted as a catalyst for the formation of Bangladesh.
And the present Pakistani regime is doing the same in Kashmir.
We should realize that this fight is really bleeding us badly. We need to really come out of it, even at the cost of kashmir.
Tanveer:
>We should realize that this fight is really bleeding us badly. We need to really come out of it, even at the cost of kashmir.
Sadly, you are mistaken.
I’d have supported a referendum in Kashmir and letting them go to which ever hell they choose to if they so wished!
But, there are two things that can’t be allowed to happen.
1. Minorities: It is not the only Muslim minorities of India who deserve protection of our constitution. Even hindu/buddhist minorities of Kashmir deserve it too! Track record of Kashmiri seperatists of pushing out Kashmiri Pandits, track record of Pakistan and bangladesh of systemically wiping out Hindu minorities (from about 20% to less than 2% now) is proof of we can’t let these folks to their fate.
2. Impact on rest of India : Can we afford another religion based partition of India. I agree it would’ve been best if Kashmir was allowed to succeed, if it so wished, in 1940s or early 50s. But, now reopening those wounds may throw up other demands – such as India for Hindus. How prepared are we for that?
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Vinay:
>And moreover, Kashmir is of prime strategic importance.
China will build a railway line even otherwise… They have China-Pak line planned, through POK Gilgit/Baltistan over Karakoram range. What China does or Pakistan does shouldn’t be the reason for our choices.
We need to sustain good development for next 20-30 years, and Pakistani folks will see the futility of their dogged persistence on irrelevant issues, just like East Germany and rest of Easter bloc saw the futility of cold war in 1980s..
+1 to Harkol.
And moreover, Kashmir is of prime strategic importance. It might sound sad for some, but there is no way the Indian state is going to give up Kashmir. The Chinese will build railway lines and road networks all the way from their mainland, through the land of the Porkies, all the way till the Porki coast. And oil and gas pipelines all the way from the middle east till the Chinese mainland.
One big advantage that India has over China currently is that in case of war we can block their access to energy through the sea, and block their lines to Europe and Africa in the Indian ocean and the Straits of Malacca. Give up Kashmir and you give the Chinese land access to the energy of the mid-east. No way the Indian state is going to give up Kashmir under the current conditions.
Talking of minorities in kashmir,having been in the less popularised/relatively less touristy eastern parts of kashmir, it would be vastly unfair to the ladakhi people who occupy most of eastern kashmir to unjustly allow kashmir to become a mohammedan country! They have put in a lot of efforts to cultivate what is now their homes, their lands, their sustenance. They have developed some of the most ingenious ways of water conservation and effective water utilisation.. And to give up all this on the whims of partitionists! I have to agree with Harkol here!
@Vinay
“One big advantage that India has over China currently is that in case of war we can block their access to energy through the sea, and block their lines to Europe and Africa in the Indian ocean and the Straits of Malacca.”
-That is very logical, I second that.
@Harkol
You are right, a broader perspective is needed. But just recently i read that nearly 1277 jawans have died in last 3 months, civilian casualty apart. Can’t there be a peace formula. If we can come up with something like atleast giving up on POK, then we can force a real wedge between China-Pak alliance.
I think we should have better relations with Pak even at a higher cost. This will really help us in long run. It is the need of the hour, moreso with China becomming a real danger in Eastern India.
Tanveer:
>Can’t there be a peace formula…. giving up on POK…
As far as Kashir goes, Pakistan is not truly a problem for India.. It is only a red herring!
Indian problem in Kashmir i with Kashmiri Muslims. They simply believe they have been wronged. Giving up POK or otherwise is not a solution, if it was, then in 1972 after winning Bangla war, Indira Gandhi suggested that – though Bhutto turned it down, pleading Indira not to humiliate him.
In reality, the concept that Kashmir is a bilateral issue between India and Pakistan is so much humbug. It is an internal matter between India and Kashmiri people. Pakistan could do ZILCH to change status quo – for it neither has military, economic or moral power to convince the world otherwise.
We do need a solution to make peace with Kashmiri’s. Most probably it’d have to be something on the lines of what China is doing with Hong-Kong – One country two system.
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>nearly 1277 jawans have died in last 3 months
I am not sure of these numbers, for there are estimates ranging from 50,000 to 100,000 deaths over last 20years. And it is all very tragic. Lot of these deaths would’ve been due to the terrorism, but surely good number are because of the need to have a large military presence – which is never a sensitive force, as they are trained to fight wars, not keep law and order.
An long lasting solution will have to be a settlement, that doesn’t compromise the geographic unity of India, Security of Minorities, while giving sufficient autonomy to Kashmiris.
Once we do that – Pakistan can go jump of the tallest peak of Himalayas.
Tanveer:
>I think we should have better relations with Pak even at a higher cost.
These are noble and most sensible thoughts, which I am sure 80% of Indians will agree with. The question will be how high a cost?
India has been very tolerant of Pakistan. After winning a war, holding 93,000 prisoners and thousands of sq.km of West-Pakistan territory in 1972 – India withdrew its forces from all areas, including POK over which India had a legitimate claim, released all prisoners. All this on a simple piece of paper (Simla Agreement) that promised peace through a negotiated settlement, which Pakistan duly consigned to a dustbin, embarked on a Nuclear path, and Jihadi path.
This is the nature of the beast that Jinnah created. An extremely intolerant, incoherent, unprincipled and most untrustworthy state. There hasn’t been a single peaceful transition of power in Pakistan till date. Every leader (Military or otherwise), who hasn’t back-stabbed his mentor – Bhutto to Yahya, Zia to Bhutto, Musharaff to Nawaz , Kayani to Musharaff so many other such. In their political culture – There is no lexicon of loyalty, decency and bowing to public wishes. The person who wields the biggest stick at a particular point is always the ruler, either de-facto or de-jure. Today it is Kayani who rules Pakistan.
For all the ills of our politicians, they are a 1000 times better than what we get to see in Pakistan/Bangladesh.
With all this – What price do you think India should pay to Pakistan? POK? India has offered that many times – LOC as border, and Pakistan keeps rejecting. Altering the border is too high a price as I mentioned earlier. What else will satisfy Pakistan?
You’ll realize you can only negotiate a price with a person who is ready to sell something. I suspect – there isn’t a ‘price’ that India can pay, that’ll satisfy pakistan.
Instead, India should keep doing JAW-JAW with pakistan, but improve relationship with all other nations (Nepal, Bangla, SL etc.), where we may be able to negotiate an acceptable price for better relationship.
@Harkol
Nice analysis.
How about we look at it this way. We open up a really good economic channel witn Pakistan. Ensure the local people of pakistan get a very good market in India for their wares. Let the ground people taste trade and money.
After all Pakistan is a failed state..probably comparable to Bihar in India.
This will ensure that the people start fighting against their leaders for their economic liberation. This is how Jews are dominating the West and the USA, by their monetary strength. They have shown how a state can be formed out of nowhere(Israel) by their monetary and negotiationary clout.
I don’t know how it will work..but yet a penny for your thoughts.
Tanveer:
>We open up a really good economic channel witn Pakistan.
This too was offered to Pakistan and was rejected. Vajpayee and MMS both have told many times that we should leave contentious issues (read Kashmir) and focus on things we can develop (Trade and economic co-operation). But, Pakistan rejects it.
I read 3 Pakistani news papers on a regular basis (Thenews, Dawn and the Daily Times) for past 6-8years. News papers offer a view of the straws in the wind.
There are very few commentators and opinion makers in Pakistan who are in favor of opening up trade with India. Pakistani think tanks are affraid of two things:
1. Superior Indian Industrial strength, that may swamp Pakistani markets – Somewhat similar to the narrow minded discourse we see in India about trade with China!
2. Most think focusing on non-Kashmir issues, like trade and people-to-people relationships, will help India relegate Kashmir to back burner, and Pakistan will be in even weaker position vis-a-vis India in future for negotiating Kashmir.
The right path for Both India and Pakistan is not to let their future hostage to a small piece of history called Kashmir. Let Kashmiris live with dignity with large degree of autonomy, but without compromising the regional stability. If in future, pakistan too turns purely democratic, and our region becomes more like west-Europe – where there are no conflicts and high degree of human rights, then Kashmir can indeed be an independent country, with guarantees for the safety of Minorities.
But, such an outcome is not to the likings of theocratic mindset, which wants nations to be formed on the basis of religion alone. So, as I said – we need to keep doing Jaw-Jaw as Jerry Rao suggested.. :-)
While on this matter, here is a good article by Kuldip Nayar, whom can never be accused of being a hawk on Indo-Pak matters. he too feels there is no solution for Kashmir!!
http://bit.ly/ackPq8
@Harkol
Very true…Still doing Jaw-Jaw is ok to a certain extent. But to continously maintain the same stance against a trigger happy Army ruler with his button on the nuke doesnt make me comfortable. Moreso with South India comming in the range of the Pak missile.
I still feel that economic development is the way forward for better relations. For that to happen we should open up our markets for their products initially and let them taste trade. Then slowly we can offer our products to their markets and widen our markets.
Now pakistan is totally India centric, and the fact that they have nothing tangible to lose, makes them fearless.
This is how USA is making hay in the middle East. People visiting there recount the big US cars, US food and beverages, even US style W/closets are the fad.
Tanveer:
>I still feel that economic development is the way forward for better relations.
US thought so, and has fed Pakistan with above $10billion in past 9 years, and where have they got? Majority of Pakistani’s hate USA, the country that feeds them. US has tripled the aid this year on… I can virtually guarantee that they will get triple the hate. ;-(
All the folks who talk about unilateral aid to pakistan miss a point. Pakistan can’t be reformed from outside. It’ll have to do so from Inside. More we try to help them, more distrustful their people will be of our motives. The conspiracy theories of India wanting to gobble up Pakistan will come up again.. etc..
We need to have a hands off policy, leaving Pakistan to go through its own process of either reforming or destroying itself.
>button on the nuke doesnt make me comfortable
We have China next door, which also has an authoritarian regime with more nukes than India+Pakistan, that can hit all of India. Why are we not affraid of China?
While all of USA was uncomfortable having nukes that could hit their cities in under 20minutes, they never budged in Cold war and eventually stared USSR down. Similarly, We can’t conduct our foreign policy based on irrational fear. Pakistan will tire of its confrontation, and will loose completely when the US finance dries up.
@Harkol
>We need to have a hands off policy, leaving Pakistan to go through its >own process of either reforming or destroying itself.
There is so much turmoil around this problem, I really wonder whether this will be the right choice.
>Why are we not affraid of China?
China will be a major threat, if it isin’t already. Turning a blind eye to it wont serve any purpose. We need to be real careful on this front.
All said and done, I recollect yr earlier reflection whether the Maoists are more of a threat, than all of this put together. India needs to really pull up its socks and sort out this internal problem.
And I assure you Sir, the muslims of India are more patriotic than you can imagine. They are spread out across the length and breadth of India. And muslims are and will be the unifying force in the diversity of India. Trust us muslims(of India) Sir, give us opportunities, harness the strength of our youth. You will find us more than trustworthy.
Tanveer:
>We need to be real careful on this front.
‘Eternal vigilance is the price of Liberty’ – Wendell Phillips
>more patriotic than you can imagine
You embarass majority Hindus when you make statements like that.
Most won’t need any convincing. Some will be never convinced.
Patriotism is another word used for safe-guarding one’s collective self-interest. So, it doesn’t take much of an imagination to know that Muslims of India will be patriotic.
After all they have to thrive in this country, not in some other! ;-)
@Harkol
>Patriotism is another word used for safe-guarding one’s collective
>self-interest. So, it doesn’t take much of an imagination to know that >Muslims of India will be patriotic.
>After all they have to thrive in this country, not in some other! ;-)
I differ on this. Patriotism needs to be nurtured. It needs more than self-interest to motivate the masses.
Banishing muslims to live in Ghettos will not serve the purpose. They will act as fodder to anti-social activities. The need is to bring them to the main stream, give them a decent life, then we can expect reciprocation of the highest level.
Many surveys have concluded that present day muslim are in very dire straits, they are much below the poverty line. Some surveys even suggest they are below the SC/ST category. We need to pick these guys up by giving them opportunities.
After all they are a part of this country -:)
Tanveer:
>Banishing muslims to live in Ghettos
Can you elaborate? My neighbour (in a tony BDA layout) is a Muslim. My kids pediatrician is a Muslim, who lives about 2furlongs away in the same layout.
Worldwide, Minorities (or small ethnic groups) tend to form clusters. That doesn’t mean it is a ghetto – a word which means it is ‘enforced’ by regulatory or social restrictions. I don’t see that in India. In fact, the courts won’t allow it.
Majority of slum dwellers in India are non-muslims, these slums can be called as ghettos as they are forced by their economic conditions (if not social). So, I don’t get the point that Muslims are banished to Ghettos.
I do know of some cases of discrimination by housing societies in Mumbai, where they refused to sell/rent to muslims. But, I don’t think it is a prevalent practice and it exists all over India. Correct me if I am wrong.
>Muslim are in very dire straits
Agreed. This reminds me of an debate I had with another Churumuri commentator ‘Khan’.
I don’t agree to any form of reservations. However, I think certain affirmative actions to assist the poor of all sections is good. Specifically in case of muslims – the govt. should promote modern education among poor muslims, by making it mandatory to study of English and Science in Madrasa etc.
Govt. should revamp our education system, if it did, muslims will be major beneficiaries.
I strongly feel it is the conservative & vocal muslim leadership which hampers the growth of muslims. Not any discrimination. They spend their political capital in getting symbolic rewards, rather than substantial ones.
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>Patriotism needs to be nurtured
Point I was making is – Patriotism is a feeling of belonging or owning. A dog too is patriotic, as it pisses in four corners of a ground to mark its territory, and will fight to guard it. :-)
If there is a feeling of disenfranchisement, then the feeling of ownership (stake) goes away. This is true of not only Muslims, but other classes too. Maoist rebels are an example of that.
It is important for India to make sure all citizens feel they have a legitimate stake and a way of addressing their problems thru their franchise.
So, my point was that – there is no surprise that Muslims are patriotic too. Because majority of muslims feel they belong here, and that they can exercise their vote to bring about change
@Harkol
You are right when you say that majority of muslims feel they belong here, and that they can exercise their vote to bring about change.
There are instances like in Mumbai, even in bangalore, where people avoid muslims in the neighbourhood…but they are very stray and i appreciate the majority of the crowd.
The onus lies with the muslim clergy too, who should come forward and adopt the educational system..or atleast add it to their curriculum. This will make a sea of change. I also know for a fact that this clergy is also non-willing to allow the muslim masses to directly connect with the Quran. It discourages them to understand and likes them to just orally read it in the original arabic text. But times will change and the new generation surely have their priorities right.
Its been a pleasure sharing thoughts with you.
Tanveer:
>where people avoid muslims in the neighbourhood…but they are very stray
Some bigotry is not a preserve of any country or any community or class. It is universal.
In our layout there is a residential complex, that’s exclusively for Jains. Their society doesn’t permit selling/renting apartments to anyone buy jains. But, these are rather isolated, stray incidents.
I lease a commercial premises, which has joint owners – A Muslim and a malayalee christians. Both extremely rich, and most agreeable individuals. We have an office boy who is a Muslim, who can barely read and can barely sign. My land-lords won’t have any problem in settling anywhere in Bangalore. But, my office boy most certainly will be in muslim dominated cluster.
Which is to say – Economics, not religion/caste makes all the difference.
It was very pleasurable debating with you too. Thanks.
Kudos to both Tanveer and Harkol on a civilized debate. Hope the rest of Churmuri commentators can take a cue!