Every October, India goes through the by-now familiar drill of asking why there are not too many Indian-sounding names on the list of Nobel Prize winners. And on the odd occasion there is, asking why they weren’t nurtured by institutes and industries here, and why oh why they had to go abroad to earn their spurs.
Despite Venkatraman Ramakrishnan and Amartya Sen bagging the supposedly high honour in recent times, the answers haven’t changed much. The usual cliches of Indians being copy cats, masters of learning by rote, of not being inventive or innovative enough, of debilitating quotas, backbiting, crab mentality are belted.
Delivering the foundation day lecture of the Indian institute of management, Bangalore (IIM-B), the Jnanpith award winning Kannada writer, critic and scholar, U.R. Anantha Murthy introduces a fresh new perspective.
India, he says is in this position, simple because the pool of talent isn’t large enough:
“The hunger for equality is the most spiritual aspiration of a human being. The challenge before premier educational institutes is to redefine “arhata” (merit) and “intelligence”.
“We can create excellence only through equality.
“India is not able to produce Nobel Prize winners because there are many castes and many groups in India that are yet to receive education. Education to me should respect not just the so-called cerebral area but the intelligence of the body. I’d like to see a redefinition of intelligence.
“The poet William Blake spoke of the plight of the poor chimney sweep in industrialized London; let us ask ourselves whether technological strides have resulted in ‘sarvodaya‘ (welfare of all) or if it is at the cost of the tribals and the downtrodden?”
View the full lecture here: U.R. Anantha Murthy
Also read: U.R. Anantha Murthy: our greatest living novelist?
Will Kannada literature climb Nobel peak again?
Look, who’s lobbying for the Nobel peace prize!
Chemistry Nobel, yes, but why not physics?
Mr URA! You dismiss Lord Macaulay’s observation about India and Indians
as absurd ???
What a treat! Ananthamurthy the intellectual is a national treasure. (But Ananthamurthy the politician would be a national failure!) Nooru varusha, Ananthamurthy avarige.
Not a bad speech, shows even URA has some potential. A bit simplistic in my opinion, mere reservation is not going to get us more nobel prizes. We need to root out corruption at the very heart of India first. Long way to go. The scientists, engineers, philosophers of India are nothing less compared to the rest of the world, it is just that they are held back. In any case, Nobel prizes are overrated, there is too much politics that guides who gets a nobel and when. Just like our Jnanapeeth awards (hint, hint).
Nobel Peace Prize is a Hoax, and even maybe Literature, There is intense lobbying, like anything it is corrupt. I dont want a Nobel Prize, I dont want to share the Karma of Dynamite Fishing.
Everyone will try and twist their explanations to suit their agenda.
The truth about why our brightest need to move abroad to realize their true potential is obvious.
Right from childhood, the majority of us learn to take the path of least resistance. In school, any attempt at originality on the part of a child will quickly be snuffed out by teachers too hassled by the workload generated by classrooms of 60+ kids to even consider an original thought by one of their students. At home, both parents will need to work throughout the day to simply meet the basic needs of a growing family and may not have the energy to nurture a child’s curiosity. And this is the fate of the privileged few who can afford good schooling in India.
After school and college, most of us opt for what gives us the best return on our parents’ ‘investment’ in education: a cushy, no-brainer job in an MNC or a mass-market MBA, leading to another mass-market job at a consulting firm. Again, the paths of least resistance.
You need to add another question to the Nobel Prize and India Question: Why are the Indians settled abroad doing well? You may get a reasonably good answer. We as a nation have a bad habit of acknowledging the contribution of Once upon a Time Indians to their countries of residence!
He he he, URA talking about talent!! Look who’s talking – someone who got the Jnanpith because of his political links. C’mon URA everyone knows that you are a Congi bootlicker, so keep your moralising and philosophising to yourself.
Ananthamurthy said “..India is not able to produce Nobel Prize winners because there are many castes and many groups in India that are yet to receive education…”
This man is confused in his thinking. Higher education in India is suffering by the weight of plethora of reservations that form a large reservation pool, with communities urging the government-both at the state level and at the centre to classify themselves to be “backward ” so as get into this pool. This is rewarding mediocrity . This does not stop here, as these reservation quotas are triggered at every level in universities and research institutes.
Just for a moment think of what would have happened to Venkatraman Ramakrishnan had he stayed in India.
The Cambridge University and the MRC Laboratory for Molecular Biology there have to be congratulated for keeping so much faith on the ability of a relatively unknown professor called Venkatraman Ramakrishnan working in a relatively modest University of Utah in USA, years ago. He was then offered the prestigious professorship in the above Laboratory ( nearly a decade before his research attracted the attention of the Nobel Committee) which placed him at par with that great scientist Sanger- a double Noble Prize winner who worked there.
As for citing William Blake, well , the context there is very different.
To the commentors crying about sour grapes – why do Indians not win much in the Olympics or other international sports events? Because it is lobbying? or because we dont care? Or because we dont have what it takes when we are in our own country?
Hi Anon @7:33:
In Sports you have to perform live with others, all the Public is there to judge you, there is no margin for doubt. Not the case here. Does Obama deserve a Nobel Prize, even if it is the best prize on Earth. All of us can Pander to the “Western Method” as of now, soon Ball will roll, it will some other “Method”, and then afterwards that will roll too, it will be another “Method”.
Amartya Sen got his Nobel for Social Economics because Nobel Committee wanted to punish the Kensyian Economists it was all the time rewarding so far, because Nobel Prize Grant Money was deeply in Wall Street stocks and they lost a lot of value that year.
If that year Stock market had performed 500% better than the last year, Nobel investments had risen, they would not have wiped their ass with even Amartya Sen’s Ph.D. thesis.
IMHO both URA & Mysore Peshwa should be declared as ‘National Treasures’ found above ground! As usual URA is spouting arrant nonsense! Basic education to all is a must but that doesn’t guarantee eclectic excellence! Nobel Prizes and Olympic medals come from hard work and talent and perseverance. Indians lack application (sorry X Guy, I am borrowing your style) and we are happy playing cricket or saluting Tendulkar or watching movies.
Some strange things between USA and India.
In the USA, Poor people eat unhealthy at McDonald, and Burger King, Middle and Rich eat healthier food. In India, Most of the Middle Class are lining up for McDonalds etc. the Poor used to eat healthy Raagi. Some still do.
2. I started consistently buying flowers, Fruits and Vegetables from selected vendors, so in my reasoning that they would give me good quality produce at affordable price, like in USA you getting a good deal for a regular patron. In India, these vendors try to sell me bad produce since I have become acquainted and a friend with them.
3. When I renovated, I usually used to treat the laborers to motivate them to work better with Coco-Cola, Snacks etc, and generally being nice with them. This reduced the productivity. My neighbor told me they work only when they are berated, and verbally abused a lot.
Yes, Nobel Prizes, despite their controversies at times are still very prestigious and eagerly followed across the world. Remarks like “they are not worth it” have sour grapes written all over. We keep smarting over failures in general. Nobel Prizes are not prestigious; Oscars arent good because Indian movies dont win; Olympics are rigged; Math Olympiads are a waste of time and what not! The simple truth could just be that we as a populace are not competent enough.
It was the same URA who was keen on winning the Man International Booker Prize. I am sure he would consider the Nobel Prize as a crowning achievement although it may never happen.
My own opinion is that the awarding of Nobel Prizes (at least for the sciences and medicine) is partly linked to a country’s standard of living. The kind of research worthy of a Nobel Prize normally requires advanced lab facilities, money and an ecosystem that breeds research and innovation. In a relatively poor country like India such facilities are limited and despite what we would like to believe, bread and butter issues would trump research oriented activities.
One can hope that if the country’s economy improves. larger funding and interest can spur more advanced research.
Thucydides wrote more than 2400 years ago:
“It is a general rule of human nature that people despise those who treat them well, and look up to those who make no concessions.”
So you know what to do now, instead of complaining that people dont do what you want or that you don’t want a Nobel prize.
BTW same general rule applies in USA too.
Coming back to URA, Nobel prizes and lame excuses:
URA was quoted as saying:
“India is not able to produce Nobel Prize winners because there are many castes and many groups in India that are yet to receive education.”
If the Brahmins or other upper castes who win most ‘Indian-descent’ Nobel prizes cannot win anything in India, what super-intelligent people is URA talking about who will do so when educated? What is this education he is talking about anyway, who/how will it be imparted to the unwashed masses? Sometimes socialists get away with anything.
The lesson here is – if you think you can win a Nobel prize, move out of India ASAP. Otherwise you will be stuck with the likes of URA who will justify anything.
Let me make a prediction now:
Once the many groups URA is worried about receive URA’s gnanodhaya, there will be more chaos in India.
Not that I am saying that is a bad thing, but that is how it is going to be.
Oh, and nobody is going to win a Nobel prize after that too.
DHL: Well said.
Vishal: There is no question of “sour grapes” here. The nobel prize is a piece of shit. Olympics is different. There is no scope for lobbying and bias in the Olympics. When it comes to sports, we are talking about something objective as opposed to something subjective in the case of nobel prize.
So, stop bundling together Olympics and Nobel prize and Oscars. Oscars and booker prize are given only to movies and books which fulfill the predefined Western stereotype. In the case of India, it is all about poverty, caste and slums. If a movie has all these in abundant measure and even better, is made by a Westerner, then you have an Oscar. Ditto with the booker prize.
These Western oriented and biased awards and prizes will lose their sheen and be replaced by alternatives, and this will happen in our lifetime. But for heaven’s sake, realize the truth behind these biased agenda-driven Western prizes.
Just one example (though there can be many more): after seeing the prize being given to Obama, anyone who believes the Nobel peace prize is a great thing is an idiot.
Ok, let us assume Nobel peace prizes are not great things.
How about nobel prizes in the sciences? Why dont Indians in India win this?
And what about the Olympics? Why so few medals per people ratio, probably the worst in the world?
What solution does URA have or that? Or does he think the Olympics are not worth it too since they are a Western concept? How about barring anyone from crossing the seven seas again?
Faldo, You make a good point. Awards and excellence are a rich man’s game.
And URA makes solid points about universal education, in the way of helping people raise the self-awareness.
Is this education and self-awareness a good thing? It must be, especially for those whose awareness is being raised.
Will it be comfortable for those who are benefiting from the resources and labour of the unaware. Definitely not. With our famous inability to achieve efficiency and quality as a country and our insensitivity; it is difficult to think of how we can create opportunities for the newly educated. Most of the sectors which are doing well in India now do so due to inequity and cheap labor of the unaware rather than innovation or efficiency we create.
In any case, there is no denying the importance of what he is saying.
But will it win Nobel prizes for India. Likely not.
And that last specious argument from URA makes his whole argument sound like a tired speech from a politician.
If you think that the Nobel Prize is crap, you dont have to worry since you wont be winning one.
I did not say that Nobel Prizes are without controversies – giving the Peace Prize to Obama or for that matter Henry Kissinger (far worse) and others have been colossal mistakes. Every prize has some controversy attached to it. Even the Nobel prizes in natural sciences have a lot of controversies. For example Watson, Crick and Wilkins were given the Nobel Prize for the DNA structure. Many thought that Rosalind Franklin was left out unfairly.
Our own Satyendra Nath Bose should have a Nobel in physics but that did not happen. There are many examples where deserving candidates have been left out or sometimes the undeserving awarded.
But despite its shortcomings, the Nobel Prizes are still very prestigious. For example, winning a Nobel in Physics will put one in the company of Einstein, Dirac, Fermi, Feynman and others. Many people receive the awards years after their discovery since those need to be validated and tested. The latest award to Higgs and Englert is a case in example.
Generally, the science prizes are awarded on the basis of the citations that a paper receives and the influence it has on the field which has a fair measure of objectivity to it.
The other prizes such as the one for Economics, Peace and Literature are the ones that attract a lot of controversies. Literature, for example is clearly biased in favor of the Europeans. Peace, sometimes is used to send out a political message.
When I “bundled” Olympics and the Nobels, it was to make the point that our collective claim to those medals/prizes is abysmally low. It might change in the future (if we invest more).
There are three aspects under discussion on this thread, let us keep them separate.
First is the Oscar/Booker. Both these “prizes” are a farce, pander to Western stereotypes and we should stop giving any credence to these “prizes”. There are several good movies made in India, we don’t make *only* mindless dance-fight movies. There are good ones too. You will never find any of our films in the contention for an Oscar. There is a mild chance only if the film panders to Western stereotypes and has lots of cows, poverty, slums, and all the usual stuff that Westerners want to see.
Coming to nobel prizes. This needs to be subdivided into categories too. Nobel peace prize, literature prize, economics are biased, fulfill Western stereotypes and involve heavy lobbying and are not fit to even wipe one’s ass with.
However, I will agree than Olympics is an objective thing, and we can certainly question why we have so few medals in Olympics. We can also question *to some extent* why we have few nobel prizes in the sciences. Everything else is a pile of shit.
Nobel prize has devalued itself by not giving itself to Vladimir Putin who almost single handedly averted a major human tragedy.
Shivaram karanth and kuvempu deserved Nobel prize, their case was as good if not more than Tagore.
At – did you even listen to what anantha murthy said? He dint say Nobel prize is useless, he said we need to redefine merit so that pool of people who can compete for Nobel prize can increase.
Vladimir Putin??? Since when did you shift your loyalties from HDD to Putin?
Parents in India kill that inherent curiosity of experiments or doing something new very early in childhood. “don’t do that”, “don’t do this”, “don’t go there, u will get hurt”… Etc etc. Thus we develop that fear of unknown, or fear of failure. Therefore research in india is so backward. This is the main reason.
Folks, consider the fact that IT has skewed the higher education and employment away from science research in India, given the fact that IT mania gripping the corridors of every educational institution .and hence, every youngster aspiring to become a NRN and not a CV Raman, there is no chance of any Indian in India getting a science Nobel Prize. Like Chandrasekhar, Khorana and Venkatraman, there is slightly a better chance of a person of Indian-origin getting one as a citizen in a Western country. I say “slightly better”, because of the Indian psyche strongly triggering ambition in the mind of a bright Indian-origin kid residing in the West these days to become another Zuckerberg or some other industry leader with a MBA.
Vishal, no reasons for worrying.
HDD went to Russia as prime minister and he held important discussions with Boris Yeltsin.
HDD always believed in good relations with Russia and he was against India prostrating before America and pledging our foreign policy to America.
America felt insecure and they dislodged HDD govt in collusion with vested interests in India.
PUTIN is a visionary leader, he beleives in keeping croony capitalism under check like HDD. no question of shifting loyalties.
“I did not say that Nobel Prizes are without controversies ”
I dont know much about Nobel prize for Physics etc. However, awards in general, and Nobel prize in particular is used as political weapon. More peace prize, economics prize…
A good example is, Nobel prize given to Dalai lama. (Now start attacking against me. (if Churmuri ever bother to publish this). Before that please read this– http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/02/world/world-news-briefs-dalai-lama-group-says-it-got-money-from-cia.html Just find out how much crore rupees they are getting from USA every year. How much Dalai Lama himself pocketed. Dalai Lama organization was a CIA funded terrorist organization You cant give a peace prize to a terrorist organization. (I am talking by presenting evidence. Please understand. I know many Indian media gets fund from agencies to praise Dalai Lama to present him as a God. If you give money to me, I will also do the same. But as long as CIA doesnt give me money, I will talk truth. Isnt it a fair policy? Agreed?)
Also read — http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/behind-dalai-lamas-holy-cloak/2007/05/22/1179601410290.html?page=2
In thi sYoutube video, Dalai Lama’s own brother admits that their organziation was Trained by CIA for terrorist activities. In the same video, (old time) USA trainers reveals that the financial burden on USA was relatively less. This indicates that USA was generating much of the fund to give arms and training to Dalai Lama movement is generated by using drug trafficking etc.
“According to declassified US intelligence documents released in the late 1990s, ‘for much of the 1960s, the CIA provided the Tibetan exile movement with $1.7 million a year for operations against China, including an annual subsidy of $180,000 for the Dalai Lama.’
Myrada (Mysore based NGO) itself is a CIA front organization. Some of the top Army Intelligent officers of that time were CIA agents (RAW was not founded then).
“Starting in 1968 and boosted by a donation of US $3,500,000 from the European Refugee Campaign funds, the management of most of the support was taken over by Mysore Rehabilitation and Development Agency (MYRADA), an independent Indian rural development NGO started especially for this purpose by the state government and staffed by Indian ex-army officers..”
Yes Putin deserves Nobel peace prize just because he averted Syria War. That is not a small achievement. But Putin is not a democratic leader. He is now commercially selling Soviet era weapons and make money for his country and for himself. Putin’s Russia can not even build weapons by itself without the help of other Nations. They are in such a terrible situation. Take the example of Brahmos (Brahmaputra-Moscow rivers).That is an old Soviet technology. Russia wants to do commercial production of Brahmos missiles and sell it. They tied up with India, and Indian company produce missiles and the profit is shared with Russia. Hundreds of Russian Scientists are now hired by Chinese, as Russia cant even pay handsome salary to their scientists. Capitalist Russia cant even imagine to produce anything new. They sell old Soviet Nuclear reactors and make money. Nevertheless, Putin deserves Nobel peace prize, no doubt.
Many of our commentators argue that primary education cant produce scientists. They conveniently forget the important law that, quantitative changes would lead to qualitative changes. Why South India is producing more Scientists and scholars now? Why areas where feudal social relationships control social life dont produce large number of creative minds, scientists, scholars etc? Not all 10 lakh people you send to primary schools will get nobel prize. But when our Dalits and Adivasis get better education, 10 +15 = 25% (and if you include Dalit Muslims, that is another 5- 8% I guess) of Indian population is going to contribute to the Nation building. During the initial years after Independence, most of the scholars wrere from aristocratic landlord families. Or from familes who were into money lending business. eg: Vikram Sarabhai (Gujarati Landlord family) and Bhabha (Parsi) et al are examples. But today, people belong to Dalit community are making important research findings.
U.R. Anantha Murthy is a much-hyped, extremely controversial specimen in Karnataka. Among all the educated Kannadigas, he is considered a canny politician who still retains his ambition of becoming a MP or MLA.
His Bharathipura, Avasthe, and Samskara..etc were good for their times when there was no electronic media and the Cong-I ruled everyone’s mind with AIR, Doordarshan and the all powerful I&B ministry!
Apparently the Cong-I high command earlier had this anti-kannadiga, forever Bhyrappa & Modi-baiter in the shortlist for the key Blr south constituency! However sources say that matters changed ever since the news-leak about the much-hated Adhar hero and Billionaire Nandan Nilkani aspirations to get the MP ticket. Nilkani was initially hoisted by the Pappu Brigade despite an extremely adverse reaction from the well-networked and politically-aware local voters of Blr south.
To those ignorant, this phoney and at times cranky novelist called URA, is actually a tool and creation of the media, vested interests and political parties in particular Cong-I, Mannina Maga Gowda Clan and the ruling ‘socialist’ CM.
Ask any Kannadiga with an iota of knowledge on Kannada literature and he/she will say that SL Bhyrappa (among others) was really genuine, avoided political parties and many light years ahead of UR Anantha Murthy. (btw, URA’s kids were specifically sent to the most premium English medium school in Blr)
There have been so many exposes in various media of how this so-called novelist and his chaddi-dost Girish Karnard spent all their time sucking-up to their politically powerful, Delhi-friends and God-fathers that included special treatment to the various rotating heads of the Kendriya Sahitya Academy as well as key Cong-I ministers at Hotel-Ashok. Of course, all chicken, mutton and foreign liquor bills are on the house, thanks to hospitality from the Govt-owned ITDC.
Do people know that this media-created political oxymoron once said that he is ‘really secular’ not because he loves the Cong-I or Deve Gowda… but because ‘I married a Christian’!
With elections round the corner and the UPA govt doomed after 10 years of complete misrule and extraordinary corruption, URA is in great demand in the speech making, seminar and media controversy circuit.
You might as well invite Putin to a JDS samavesha & badoota and crown him with a Mysore peta giving him a new name: Putin Gowda
I hope you will get the nod from Kumaranna & Dodda Gowdru for you to undertake this endeavor!
Churumuri perhaps forgot to mention that it was Gowdru who pulled the strings to ensure URA got a stage at IIM, to let out his pent-up frustrations.
BTW, the Gowdru in this case is not one of URA’s key friends, Viz., Deve Gowda!
It is M Rajeev Gowda, (Blood Type: Congress +ve ) who is a Professor at IIM-Bangalore (currently on paid leave!) and is the son of the former Karnataka Assembly Speaker, MV Venkatappa.
Rajeev Gowda incidentally is one of the Cong-I spokesman and this indeed helps in doing miracles.
You are right sir. Abnormal application of Capitalistic ideas are main reason for degradation of scientific research or thoughts in India. Look how it degrades Charles Darwin’s “Survival of the fittest” thought into its main tenets with name of “Social Darwinism”(please Google and compare it along with original “survival of the fittest”). It has no connection with Darwin’s original thought. please get the definition of “Fittest” from Darwin’s view. it will set whole thing upside down of the word “Merit or Arhata”!. Social Darwinism portrays “competition” has dominant factor for survival. I can argue both spiritually and scientifically, that it is just one of many factors for enlightenment. Nature doesn’t allow dominance of one factor or phenomena over others. It’s main requisite is balance of all. Probably this is what equality means from Sir Anantha Murthy :). Kudos for Ananta Murthy for the wonderful speech.
Some correction. “Survival of fittest” is not Darwin’s idea. Actually Darwin formulated “Natural selection” concept. Based on this British biologist coined “Survival of the fittest”. I think, this is first step for degradation of Darwin’s “Natural Selection” before Social Darwinism.
Darwin’s idea of fittest was based on “Adaptation in extreme condition with least resources” and not on something physically strong, cunning-ness or intelligence which Crony Capitalism always applauded.
>>We can create excellence only through equality.
Excellent quote by Sir Ananta murthy. I will try to give Spiritual proof for above quote. Many people will miss this spiritualness of the word “Equality” by dragging prejudiced thoughts of reservation, quota etc. Please don’t think on individualistic way. Equality is balance of all factors/ phenomena rather than individual thoughts. I will use Buddhist “Seven factors for Enlightenment” and “Five Hindrance for Enlightenment” concept here.
please see this.
The 7 factors of enlightenment into 2 + 1 division
• Joy or rapture (pīti)
• Investigation (dhamma vicaya)
• Energy (viriya)
• Relaxation (passaddhi)
• Concentration (samādhi)
• Equanimity (upekkha)
Here you can notice the “Competition” factor fill in 1st division. Mainly in “Energy / Effort” factor.
“Adaptation/ Flexibility” factor fill in 3rd division mainly in “Concentration” factor.
Mindfulness the balancing phenomena required to balance both faculties.
Abnormal application of “Effort” ( Competition here) factor leads to Restlessness-worry (uddhacca-kukkucca) one of five hindrance. Here Restlessness-worry is analogous to corruption, agitation, violence etc.
Same way abnormal application of “Concentration”(adaptation here) factor leads to Sloth-torpor (thina-middha) another of 5 hindrance. Here sloth and torpor may be analogous to unproductivity.
That’s the reason Lord Buddha kept the “Mindfulness”/ Heedfulness factor out of both faculties and made the king of all factors for Enlightenment. Here Mindfulness seeks equal contribution from both Effort and Concentration faculties.
Mindfulness teaches us to practice “Right concentration” when Restlessness-worry is dominant and avoid Effort factors.
Same way it teaches us to practice “Right Effort” when sloth and torpor is dominant and avoid Concentration factors.
Same way it balances “Right faith” with “Right Wisdom”. Everybody here knows consequences of abnormal application of “Faith(without Wisdom) ” and “Wisdom(without Faith: which leads to cunning-ness)” and need no explanation here.
EmptyMind is on a (t)roll.
Summane illindha gaadi bidodhu volledhu.
I am thinking of proposing a new kind of Nobel prize called the ‘Everlasting Inanity Spouting Fountain’ . I would like to propose a one-off betting race between URA & Ramchandra Guha. What do Churumurians think?
If i assume definition of “troll” is something which comes out of topic of discussion in this forum, please brief me what is in my post which is out of synchronous here? what is the prime qualification to get Nobel Prize.? Just Leaving India settling in abroad without- discerning right methods, correcting own mistakes and doing right action? That doesn’t fetch you any rewards. please come out of this illusion! I am not interested in authenticity of Nobel or any other award or even on Indian vs American.
I will discuss only on general qualities of human mind which is conductive/ hindrance to Arhata(Meritocracy)
One primary reason: No one told Nobel committee there are reservations for historically wronged Indians! ;)
Jokes apart – I think there are two reasons.
1. Critical thinking: Our education system doesn’t promote thinking, it just promotes rote learning and puking what you have read again & again. To innovate, you need to think and work on something new. Not something that India does.
2. Nobel peace prize is political – normally goes to folks which west (nato) thinks are pursuing their cause.
best expose i read today about URA the politician: