The 2014 general election was supposed to be a head-to-head contest between Rahul Gandhi and Narendra Damodardas Modi, the former ordained by the unspoken dynamics of dynastic politics; the other responding to the groundswell of popular support. Yet, could it be a no-show as the two conquistadors find one excuse more fantastic than the other to exit the ring?
The Congress vice-president reiterated in an interaction with the media in Parliament earlier this year (what he had privately maintained for a while) that becoming PM was not the sole ambition of his life. And now, the Gujarat chief minister has surprised even his fanboys by claiming that he was committed to serving his term till 2017.
“I never see such dreams (of becoming PM), nor am I going to see such dreams. People of Gujarat have given me the mandate to serve them till 2017 and I have to do this with full strength,” Modi said.
The charitable view to take is that both Gandhi and Modi are playing it safe, since neither Congress nor BJP looks likely, judging from opinion polls, to come anywhere near forming the next government. By seeming to be not interested in the race, they keep their options open, should the election verdict surprise them.
The less charitable view is that reality has hit home. Both Congress and BJP will require the support of allies to reach 273, and only Congress seems to be making moves as of now. Even if a non-Congress, non-BJP government comes to power, its longevity is far from certain. So 2014 could actually be a semi-final, with another general election around the corner.
Question: Is Narendra Modi being honest with his reluctance for the PM’s chair? Or is he being too clever by half and trying to exert pressure on his party to declare him the candidate?
Also read: CHURUMURI POLL-I: Modi vs Rahul in 2014?
CHURUMURI POLL-II: Modi vs Rahul in 2014?
churumuri 
Narendra Modi Versus Rahul Gandhi is only a small part of the changing political scenario of democracy. I think democracy has run its course. Democracy as such does not exist any more. Demos, that is the people are hoping that the power invested in them will be pontentl enough to make a change. If wishes were horses…as they say. And the Narenda Modis and the Rahul Gandhis are hoping that the demos i.e the electorate will cast its votes in their favour and cast the oppononent out of the ring. Well, only time will tell.
I feel that democracy has no power left in it. As a concept it has run its usefulness.
Polling booths are governed by money and muscle power. Where is democracy? Parliament has become a lawless market square. Where is democracy? The judiciary has taken up the role of lawmakers. With every judgement the judiciary passes a law. The debates for which the Assemblies and Parliaments are established as platforms, are usurped by the Media especially the visual media. They hire professional debators and pay them to create democratic opinion-making. Speak of the opinion making exercises: the social media are running breathlessly round the clock. Where is democracy?
I wish the beautiful rights and principles enshrined in the Consitution of the Nation will remain. I am hoping that the right to life and property, right to freedom of speech etc will not be highjacked in the coming years as vested interests have highjacked democracy.
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You don’t need to ask a question if one believes Modi. You got to be an idiot to ‘believe’ any politician, who says he doesn’t want position/power!
When Sonia G said she doesn’t want power, what she meant was she doesn’t want responsibility. When Modi ji says he doesn’t want to ‘become something’ what he means is, he wants to have a face saver, if he doesn’t ‘become it’.
This is game of politics – you can’t be ‘straight’.
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You guys seem to be deluded with the loony opinion polls which say BJP will get 130 seats only. Wait till elections are over, BJP getting 160+ is a cinch. If luck is on their side, they can get 180+. And if people like Jaya, Naveen do well, Modi might well be PM with comfortable numbers.
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Have you forgotten he is a politician? How do you outsmart RSS, Brahmin lobby, Advani and his chelas?
Modi is in this game for a long time and knows how to play it. Why do you take those words literally? He has no chance of becoming PM if he can not outsmart these a**holes in BJP.
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I dont want to comment either in favour of, or against Narendra Modi.
Just presenting what has appeared in public domain – both plus and minus-
Narendra Modi was popular and no doubt he is popular now
But why he is popular is changing from time to time.
“India’s Most Mentioned Political Leaders index analyzing the Top 20 Most Mentioned Political Leaders online for July 2013 has found that “development and economy” which was the plank on which Modi had entered conversations, dropped over a period of time, while conversations on ‘law, order & internal affairs’ increased in July 2013. ” – News report about an online study.
So now Narendra Modi is popular for his criminal side not for developmental side. Can it bring votes for him? Yes. It is his criminal side people always worshiped. But it is not a good sign if people search and read about it. Most people who worship Modi refuses to read, even if you give the best Research Article, they dont want to read. Hence, if some one is “reading online” about his “criminal side”, it is not just his hard-core worshippers. It could be “consfused admirers” like our good friends in Churumuri. People who read and discuss, can not support any psychopath infinitely.
The problem with online popularity and middle-class admiration is, they quickly change loyalty, when ever they find themselves according to hypes. Middle-class in India based in Metros are not known for intellectual culture. Intellectual activities in India takes place in regional languages. Middle class based in metros migrated to cities a couple of generations back. Their main motive is to look for better opportunities. Many of these sections, if not all, have a world-view which is influenced by commercial interests. As most of these people blindly follow mass-hysteria, they are keen to be with the majority. The moment they start suspecting they are not with winners, they jump to the other side of the fence.
Majority of the middle-class based in Indian cities would sure worship Modi, if he can win. No one is going to sacrifice their life for Modi. They all look “what we can get, if we stand by Modi.”. If Modi openly support and conduct support rallies in all Indian states asking for Caste Based reservation (in private sector or something like that.), then 90% of Modi Supporters would leave him, despite the fact that, he himself is an OBC.
I myself had a look at Google Trend. His popularity is all time high in August.
Narendra Modi re-elected in Gujarat in December 2012
– His Google Trend popularity had its previous high in that month. It is natural, when Gujarat Elections are going on, poeple look for Narendra Modi, online.
August 2013- It reached all time high. What are the news headlines which promted internet users to search for Narendra Modi?
Here is a list– Quick Random search–
Main News headlines about Narendra Modi in August 2013-
1) Anna Hazare can endores Modi only if he leaves BJP
2) Advani Snubs Modi on Independence Day
3) VHP workers lathicharged by police in Ahmedabad
4) Declare Narendra Modi as PM candidate, RSS tells BJP
5) Narendra Modi may be named PM pick by August 15
6) Hindu nationalist Narendra Modi to speak to parliament (Guardian UK news)
7) 11 killed as two buildings collapse in Vadodara
8) It would take more than small-scale interventions to check the fast spreading salinity ingress along the Gujarat coastline thanks to unchecked development activities
9) ABVP thrashes FTII (Film and Television Institute) student for not saying ‘Jai Narendra Modi’
10) Narendra Modi blasts ‘mute’ PM, says both UPA & rupee have lost value
11) Modi’s Planned Video Conferencing Address to UK, USA, Canada NRIndians- News report
12) Unlikely participation of Modi at 120th anniversary meeting on Vivekananda’s speech
13) Narendra Modi and me are poles apart: Karnataka CM – Siddaramaih’s clarification after Ambarish’ statement.
14) Congress expels Sadhu Yadav for praising Narendra Modi
15) Use of Bollywood megastar Amitabh Bachchan’s voice to praise Narendra Modi and Modi’s apology.
16) Narendra Modi too self-obsessed, intoxicated with PM dream: Sachin Pilot
17) Narendra Modi tweets in 13 languages, may blog in 50
18) Tamil Nadu Chief Minister Jayalalithaa wants Centre to include Christians in scheduled castes list (Guess why it is important. Jayalalita considers Christian votes are more important than BJP for her survival)
19) Mayawati demands to ban RSS
20) Ayodhya tussles in UP
Other news items which are continued to be discussed during this period
1) Unfazed Amartya Sen says he won’t budge on Modi (This news appeared at the end of July. It should be still live in the public memory during August)
2) Gujarat Riot ad Modis’ role in it.
3) Vibrant Gujarath campaign
4) That Modi is an unreliable person who would do anything for power. He leaked out a sex scandal video about his much efficient and younger colleague Sanjay Joshi. (Yes, my good friend harkol would say: “you know too much about inside matters.” He is referred the news report – “Sanjay Joshi …. told everyone who mattered that Modi was behind the dubious CD. Joshi was eased out when the scandal broke out …” (Read Times of India dated 21st May 2009)
5) Allegations that he was married but abandoned wife for his political career. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHtbnK3i_Dk)
6) He favoring Ambani group and CAG criticizing Modi govt for scams.
7) He working for and giving undue favour to Adani Group
8) Favouring and opposing statistics about Gujarat Development and Human Development Indices
9) News report about Modi employing controversial PR Agencies to spread truths, half-truths and lies to create good image.
a) Advani snubbing Modi could be widely discussed, as it happened on Independence day.
b) Amartya Sen’s opinion must be searched by many.
c) Modi using multiple languages in social networks must have given more network
d) RSS insisting to make Narendra Modi could be one reason. But as it was discussed and debated widely earlier, that doesnt explian the high search for “Narendra Modi”
e) London reports about Narendra Modi may have brought him to the news worldwide.
f) Other news is obviusly VHP’s Pravin Togodia’s cold war with Modi.
g) Film institute students thrashed by Narendra Modi’s men must be searched wildly, as film and movie artists/associated people are a popular subject.
“AHMEDABAD: Even as tainted IPS officer DG Vanzara has trained his guns at Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi for the government’s alleged role in masterminding encounters, the latter’s presence in social media jumped 126% over 6 months, with netizens primarily discussing him over “law, order and internal affairs”, an online study has revealed.
Blogworks’ 4th edition of India’s Most Mentioned Political Leaders index analyzing the Top 20 Most Mentioned Political Leaders online for July 2013 has found that “development and economy” which was the plank on which Modi had entered conversations, dropped over a period of time, while conversations on ‘law, order & internal affairs’ increased in July 2013. Blogworks Most Mentioned Political Leaders is a monthly barometer of public mood and conversations about the top political leaders on social media in India. The study was undertaken across Twitter, Facebook, Youtube, Tumblr, at al.”
All leaders are capable of analysing if Narendra Modi can take BJP to power.
At least two prominent leaders have already formed an opinion, it appears.
Yeddyurappa
Jayalalita
All of a sudden, why they have decided not to go with Modi, after showing initial interest?
BJP’s own leader Madhya Pradesh CM Shivraj Chauhan asked BJP and RSS leadership not to announce the name of Modi as for now. The reason – it will adversely affect BJP’s fortunes – (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/shivraj-singh-chouhan-meets-rajnath-singh-mohan-bhagwat-to-seek-delay-in-naming-narendra-modi-as-pm-candidate/articleshow/22351063.cms)
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Shemej:
The middle class which you keep mocking, is the only section of society which has its priorities right. Of course they are supporting Modi now because of development and hope for the future, and they will stop supporting him if he advocated caste-based reservations. So, what is wrong with that?
What this means is that the middle-class provides support on issues, and not for a bottle of liquor or because the person happens to be from XYZ caste.
So why do I see holier-than-thou folks like yourself constantly deriding the middle class for that? And yeah, it is high time more people started voting and thinking purely for “commercial interests”, as you put it. All this bullshit of caste, jaathi, religion, language – all this crap will reduce only when the nation begins thinking about prosperity and economic development, and nothing else.
You are a strange fellow. You use the fact that the middle-class moves in search of better opportunities, and is driven by commercial considerations, as a factor against them!!
Until more people in our nation start thinking of only commercial interests as opposed to caste interests, religious interests, etc., we will continue to be an underdeveloped nation.
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Correction: “All leaders are capable of analysing if Narendra Modi can take BJP to power.”
I meant “All READERS are capable..”
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The problem with the Jaati or caste is it serves the commercial interest of certain sections by exploiting the hard work of other sections. Capitalism also doing the same thing. it exploits certain sections for the benefit of other sections.
The big difference is– Casteism ensures who the beneficiaries should be based on people’s birth. Hence, it is not sustainable.
The Corporate, at least in theory suggest, it doesnt give the benefits only to a section based on his/her birth. But when we have a society, where majority of the people still live in a system which is determined by the caste (and related economic system), and the ruling class refuse to implement land reforms, that has only meaning– the previous propertied class (zemindar class) would become beneficiaries of the present and future Capitalist development more in numbers. Disproportionate to their skills, knowledge and hardwork, the previous landless class will remain slum dwellers and coolie workers in the present/future capitalist system.
The common factor is — Both system can survive by exploiting one group for the benefit of another group.
Compared to caste system which is dying, Corporate system may show some upward movement for a short period. But both system can not survive long.
Vinay, I never ridiculed middle class- Please dont add colors. I just state facts. I myself belong to middle class.
I have no problem if this development model help anyone. You all dream till everything collapse and every one loss all their hard earned money.
Why do you think majority of the American population were admiring the Capitalist system till the day they lost all their money when the banks collapsed. If the biggest American Banks can bankrupted, do you think, Indians banks will remain healthy for the next 50 years. Do you think majority of your relative will not lose money when Stock exchange fails, mutual funds closes, banks closed down…
Just read what happened the Asian Tigers and Indonesia when all supporters of Capitalism lost everything during the finance crisis.
It is nice to watch carnivals. Till you realize you are washed away by a financial tsunami.
There is nothing wrong people guided by commercial interests. The problem is that there is science of economics, which demands at least some people should be thinking of the commercial benefit of the larger society. I dont have any problem if you sit in a bus which goes to Kanyakumari and dream to get down at Laddak. But I only say that there should be some people who know the direction, and just because they want to enjoy places around, if they drive in what ever direction they want to drive, the passengers will never reach their destination.
There should be a small section in the society, who should dovetail their personal goal within the larger goals so the society. People vested interests should not be destructive to the larger interests of the society. It is possible to achieve more profit by working for the benefits of the larger society. This is not idealism. This is a science. This is why North Indians upper caste is working in the shops run by South Indian lower caste, today. Please study, what was the living standard of the North Idian uppercaste at the time of independence and now. Please study why South Indian upper castes are all in influential positions now. Also study why within Karnataka, majority of the influential , well to do middle class have migrated from where the land reform is implemented. And see why rigid caste system exists, upper caste population is waiting with application forms in the queue where officers from other areas are working in Sarkari offices.
Vinay, 3 days from now, I am going to be in another house, where my own people keep two sets of glass tumblers and two sets of plates. You know why. It is not just inhuman, but illegal. I know who benefited over decades and who didnt get benefited. I am not just stating blind theory. I live in a society with open eyes. By opposing caste based reservation and land reforms, upper caste people in India are digging their own graves. But, I also agree, caste based reservation could have been avoided if the land reform was implemented. I personally give emphasis to the latter. But if that doesnt happen at least caste based reservation is necessary.
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Modi is the best bet for India. give him two terms.
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20000 word posts tell me that the writer is confused and as a person must be the most boring.As for Modi, he is probably the first clear thinking politician who has cajones to carry out what he says.He has amply demonstrated good governance.Compared to him whom do we got?The present one is a wasted specimen,the scion of the “royalty” has done crooked deeds having got caught in US customs /murmurs of rapes etc, the other so called power house has a past between 1963-67 which will make you wonder , who is also uneducated and lied on oath about educational qualification.So no contest,Modi the right choice.
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Shemej:
I don’t want to argue about various “isms”, because as I have mentioned multiple times in the past, the definition of these “isms” changes as per one’s convenience, and these terms – “capitalism”, “socialism”, really have no fixed definition.
No one is arguing for crony capitalism – our Reliance-Congress type of capitalism. The 2008 economic crash in the US happened because there was a lack of oversight and regulation. An entrepreneur based economic culture with minimal government intervention and maximum regulation and oversight is what we need to aim for.
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Here’s link to translation of Pratap Simha’s article published in Kannada Prabha on 7 September 2013 –
http://www.sandeepweb.com/2013/09/10/the-cabal-within-the-party-to-stop-narendra-modi/
“A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within,”….
Lal Krishna Advani, Sushma Swaraj, Ananth Kumar. Arun Jaitley –
This foursome is more popularly known in the Twitter universe as Dilli-4 or D4….If D4 actually succeeds in sabotaging Modi, then there will be nothing to choose between Cong & BJP, and no need to vote….
the calculation is that Advani will stand a chance to become Prime Minister. And if Modi is stopped in his tracks, Sushma Swaraj reckons that she’d succeed Advani after his term as PM. As for Ananth Kumar, he’s fully aware that he’d stand to profit immensely if Advani becomes the PM. This then is the simple reason why they’ve ganged up against Modi…..
Finance Minister, P.Chidambaram. Here’s what he said: “we are happy that Ananth Kumar played a role in the victory of Congress in Karnataka….
UNHOLY TRINITY!
The members are none other than the Advani-Ananth Kumar-Sushma Swaraj trio!
Advani-Ananth-Sushma cabal. As Cicero says, it is the internal enemies who are more dangerous than the external ones.”
————————————-
As I suspected earlier, Advani-Anant Kumar-Sushma Swaraj trio were responsible for destroying BJP and BSY in Karnataka are now on to destroying Modi and BJP at the centre.
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While Modi is indeed INEVITABLE FOR INDIA, AGAINST ALL ODDS, out of curiosity…
I called-up and casually asked my close friend who is a perpetual BJP fan (and today a big real-estate tycoon thanks to wise investments) residing in Blr’s South, as to what he thinks of Modi and Anant Kumar…etc
In an unusually angry reply, he said that Advani has become the icon of a senile, greedy, shockingly selfish-politician while Anant Kumar makes him puke.
Apparently almost everyone he knows of in his constituency (the very same people who voted Anant Kumar), wanted to throw sandals, slippers & rotten eggs..et al, on the 4-time MP who has evolved into the most-hated politician of Blr/Karnataka!
I must admit that it indeed totally unexpectedly harsh, considering the unbelievably shocking and well-known corruption & huge scandals of so many others in the Cong-I and JDS..etc.
He added that unfortunately, the extremely canny and shrewd Advani-flunky has always managed to be in Delhi when the going has been too hot at home! In-fact, over the last few weeks, he completely avoids coming on to the streets or interacting with friends if ever in town, frightened of the general public’s anger!
Despite his central funds, he has apparently not done an iota of work either in his constituency or Blr or Karnataka.
Well, apparently, the well-known, shameless Modi-baiter (who is nowadays condemned even by the loyal & most intelligent Brahmins in Blr South), has been pushing his retarded mentor (a.k.a Jinnah flunky) to secure or try and negotiate with the powerful Modi-Singh combo a Rajya Sabha seat or nominated MP seat in the next parliament. I am told that the anti-Modi psyche in him, had earlier revealed to his own office workers (most of whom have now deserted), close friends in Jayanagar and Rajajinagar as well as some local Cong-I moles, that Advani has guaranteed him a key ministry in 2014!
Sad to see how a once upon-a-time RSS National College shakha member, in his quest for power and fortune, became so mean, blind and corrupted.
Perhaps, not completely surprising considering the fact that his chaddi-dost and enemy Yeddi, was also a member of the tribe, once upon a time ;-)
In a nutshell: let me humbly convey the message from my close friend.
Anant Kumar, the BJP MP from Blr, has made every honest BJP & RSS cadre in Blr & possibly Karnataka, hang their head in shame. May God bless him and family.
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The Catch-22 of Democracy is one must be elected as a PM by an mandate. Freedom of Democracy is not stopping anyone anointing themselves as ” Emperor of India”, ” King of Bangalore”, etc.
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CONSIDERING BREED OF COWARD PUBLIC AND COWARDICE OF PARTIES HE IS ASCENDED AS “SELF PROCLAIMED” CAPTOR…..WITHOUT PREJUDICE
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Noted deal-maker, businessman and renowned-fixer from Nagpur, Nitin Gadkari has finally sorted out all issues and conveyed it to members of BJP Parliamentary Board. No more internal bickering over Narendra Modi’s PM candidature.
Apparently, while Advani is adamant and doomed to retire, the Don Quixote has been promised that his Sancho Panza & side-kick Anant Kumar will get a key ministry in the next Govt along with a RS seat. Sushma Swaraj was bought over with the promise of a Deputy PM post!
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Hit wicket is probably the best way to describe the turn of events in bjp.
After anointmet of NAMO as PM candidate of NDA, the chances of NDA coming to power would be next to impossible. So the only option would be UPA, THIRD FRONT combination.
important questions a) why RSS is in this tearing hurry to announce modi candidature—- is it CORPORATE LOBBY INFLUENCING RSS?
b) why ADAG, RELIANCE stocks went up.the day modi was declared PM candidate?
ADVANI made a big mistake taking back his resignation after Goa conclave, the way RSS BJP has treated its patriarch is a good indicator of values, ideologies of those organisations.
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Dr. Ramesh:
>RSS BJP has treated its patriarch is a good indicator of values, ideologies of those organisations.
Agreed. But also consider other parallels.
The way Deve Gowda treated RK Hegde is a good indicator of his values. He got back in to Janata Dal by going and falling on Hegde’s feet, and then at a later day had his goons beat him up.
The way Nitish treated George Fernandes is also a good indicator of of JD(U) values.
The way congress treated PVN and Sitaram Kesri is a good indicator of its values.
Politics literally means pursuit of power. In politics only thing that’s sacred is gaining power. Thus, it is possible for parties to flip their ideology, sup with erstwhile enemies, relegate their prior stars to back burner. It is also OK for a father to put up fake tears, even while his son is grabbing CM gaddi, by doing what father says he didn’t want him to do and later back stab by publicly declaring it is ok for him to be called “vachana brishta”!
All of that indeed shows their ‘values’ and ‘ideologies’. And that is – Get power at any cost. BJP is no different in that respect.
The only diffeence is – atleast they are not ‘appa makkala’ family business like Congress, JD(S) etc. As such they need go thru a cathartic process to find newer leaders and get rid of the old. Because leadership doesn’t come by inheritance.
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Advani is patetially sinister.knew they would win the major state elections,then he would have said why not this x or y cm for pm.
He deserves egg on his face for meanness.
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That BJP has chosen a person who officiated over a genocide (Gujarat Riots) in India, to be its leader reveals the moral bankruptcy of that party.
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Socialist:
Let us cut the crap about these big sounding words like “genocide” and “pogrom”, shall we? Go and look up the definition of “genocide”.
In a riot where the number of Hindus killed was almost 35% (despite being 80% of the population), and which was sparked off by the burning alive of several Hindu pilgrims, if people call it a “genocide” they need to have their heads examined.
I am sick and tired of these NRI hypocrites and assorted jholawalas and leftists throwing around the “genocide” word for a communal riot, the likes of which have been happening throughout independent India’s history, and even before.
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Harkol saahebre,
if u shed some light on the following points I would greatly appreciate.
A) if RSS BJP MODI gang oppose dynastic rule , why did they and why are they doing business with SAD,SHIVSENA, DMK, JMM which are more dynastic than JD s? .
B) RSS BJP keeps harping about intra party democracy, but RSS parachuted modi as a PM candidate and forced BJP to accept it.
C) modi is the chairperson of Gujarat cricket association, why did he keep quiet about BCCI, SRINIVASAN corruption episode.
DEVE GOWDA, MORARJI, SHASTRI never had the lust for power, in fact power chose these leaders.
But modi is dangerously obsessed with PM dream.
Unnatha huddhegalu yoga haagu yogyathe iruvavarannu hudukikondu barutthe. Hapaa hapi iruvavaranu alla.
A KRISHNAPPA is the new JD S president, no nepotism here.
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Ramesh:
A: Next you’ll ask why they accept donations from Tatas and Birlas who are dynastic? You can choose to how to live your life, not mandate it to others, and not stop doing business with others because they don’t share your ideals. Would you stop treating your patients if they believe in something that you oppose?
B: You are ignorant. Check the news reports over time. RSS was opposed to Modi. RSS gave in because the cadre would’ve revolted if the RSS leadership wouldn’t go with Modi. Check the messages for past 2 yrs, RSS didn’t want Modi as they fear Modi won’t listen to them (as he has ignored RSS/VHP in Gujarat).
C: Wonder what cricket administration has to do with Modi’s credentials! He is one of the most honest politicians in the fray. He and his family have no visible assets. His mother and siblings still live a lower middle class life. He doesn’t have children driving 1cr cars. Actions speak louder than words.
>modi is dangerously obsessed with PM dream.
I like that about him. He has single minded focus and determination to do something. Why would I want to give something to someone who doesn’t want it, or pretends not to want it (hypocrisy). You don’t become a leader without working for it. HDD and HDK etc. do crazy things too, but have hypocrisy to couch their ambition in high words – you are just blind to such hypocrisy.
> A KRISHNAPPA is the new JD S president, no nepotism here.
I’d believe there is no nepotism in JD(S) when it wins and election and makes a non-family member the CM/PM. Not backstab like in case of Siddharamaiah!!
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Mr.harkol,
U are finding it difficult to answer it, I can understand it.
RSS BJP, CONGRESS are the most loyal followers of dynastic politics. Singling out only JD S is criminal.
Most ardent preachers of meritocracy, IT BT HONCHOS eventually gain liberation after anointing their sons and daughters CEO of their companies.
Modi, jaitley should relinquish their posts of cricket associations presidentships if they cannot condemn corruption there, unless they are part of the corruption.
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Question:
“The 2008 economic crash in the US happened because there was a lack of oversight and regulation. ”
As this is reflecting a popular opinion shared by many, if some one can go through various articles supporting “capitalist economy”, which were originally published before 2008 (especially after 1991), they were all arguing against any type of regulation. According to me, our friend Vinay is showing some open mind of late– let us accept it. In that sense, I hope he would show a little more open mind to examine the facts.
Well, for argument’s sake, let us accept if there was better regulation, USA could have avoided the crisis.
Naturally, question arises. why did USA chose Not to regulate its economy and allowed it to collapse? Dear friends, we are talking about a great country (yes, it is a great country- with all its negatives), with people like Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Alan Greenspan and Bernanke at the helm. And let us, just for the argument’s sake, believe they were too naive to overlook the systemic faults causing an imminent disaster. Let us (again for argument’s sake) be so overconfident about our own abilities to analyse the problems and under-estimate these great Capitalist experts. Let us, conveniently reject the view that,, they knew the crisis was building up, but were helpless- Let us disagree with the prevalent vew- that they knew, if they dont regulate the Economy, they will perish along with their burning ship, and if they regulate, and decide to jump out of ship, they will be washed away to death by the terrible tsunami. Either way they would have died, if they regulate, Capitalism wont work,. if they dont regualate, Capitalism would perish.- okay, this is not our view. We reject this opinion. Let us examine…
What actually happened in USA- let me oversimplify it with the risk of not making it 100% accurate– But broadly my message is right, with some problems with details–
I tried to give some inputs about how Petro Dollar recycling, US political hegemony, the status of Dollar as the oil trade currency, how the worlds’ largest economy can survive almost endlessly by “just printing dollars”, and asking its citizens to live eternally by credit-purchasing, the ability of USA to create satellite economic systems (sweat shops and outsourcing destinations) to manufacfure cheap products elsewhere and supply to USA at a cheaper rate etc. all helps the America to survive despite its inherently problematic capitalist system. See here –(4th Sept 2013) https://churumuri.wordpress.com/2013/08/29/what-manmohan-singh-should-really-be-doing/ .. The wealth was flowing from third world countries to USA because third world countries were forced to purchase [capital equipments +defence equipments + ammunitions +slightly older technology ] from USA and western developed nations. World Bank/IMF/Asian Bank/African Bank arm-twisted/bribed the PrimeMinisters of third world countries to take loans for local development. (http://www.adb.org/countries/india/projects ) These poor nations were forced to repay huge interests back to USA. The US finance capital channelled to World Bank as Bonds and then as high-interest-rate loan to countries, brought massive interest, profit and wealth back to USA. America has only the population of one state of India. It is the people all over the world, (including that of America) who are working hard and creating wealth for USA .
USA was experiencing a seemingly infinite economic boom after Reagan administration. Remember- till Reagan’s time, the world was praising Soviet Union as the best model for progress. USA was struggling with stagnation and economic problems (known as stagflation). If the world’s majority of the middle class were admireres of America, and for that credit goes to Reagan administration (or Reaganomics). Kennedy was even jealous of Soviet Union and declared that they will first land in the Moon before Soviet Union can and he declared the plan (1961) even before America had any major innovation in space technology. That was the golden era of Soviets and not so enviable time for USA. But due to Reaganomics, USA clearly made further leaps and further consolidated its hegemony in the world, and Soviet Union got into major crisis, by competing with USA on Star War programme. (USA was alwasy more advanced, compared to USSR But stagnated just before Reagan- during 1970s)
So if people admire USA and Capitalism till 2008, that is because of the Reaganomics, which is the golden era of Capitalism, according to Capitalist admirers. (But in reality, why USA actually ensured the well being of its citizens, is not because of Reaganomics. Amerca had already ensured that is a welfare state protecting the interests of its citizens by doing effective and massive state intervention — Roosevelt + Johnson et al.. ). After ensuring quality of life to its citizens earlier, now it attracted massive “wealth flow” to its territory during Reagan’s era.
Coming back to the near past, how did the largest USA banks bankrupt? Why couldnt USA prevent it?
As I said earlier, there was an almost perpetual real estate boom in the USA preceding the 2008 crisis. There was a seemingly never-ending economic boom.
This meant that, every year there is more investments coming to USA. Every year, there are new jobs, every year, there are better salary slips, every year more purchasing, more consumer sales, more consumption, more enjoyment, more recreation, more watching of TV (but more and more hard work, more stress, more credit-buying, more debt – they are other sides of story)
There is more inflation every year, every year the propety price goes up and up.
This means when you buy an apartment or a house 5 years back for 20 lakh rupees, next year its value is 22 lakh and 5 years later, its value is 30 lakh rupees. (just an example – not giving values in Dollars)
You see, the Reaganomics advices the citizens to live in credit.. You dont need to worry.. “Chalta hai…” keep buying in credits and “enjoy maduodu…”
Well a USA citizen buys a property for 20 lakh rupees 5 years back, never fully repay the mortgage loan back to the financing company (or bank).. but after 5 years, he/she realizes that he/she can not repay the loan as he/she doesnt have enough money already earned. These people goes back to same /other Bank/Financial institution and re-finance their property. This time take 30 lakh rupees from Bank, repay the old loan of 20lakh rupees and keep the difference, that is, 10 lakh rupees in pocket. And they all chennagi maja madidhare. Who will not praise such a “colorful life”? But fhe problem is that, such an economy, which does not create the real wealth, is bound to collapse some day. And exactly that is what happened. (USA indeed creates real wealth and sells its products – There is a real economy and there is an unreal casino economy- when I said, USA is not producing any wealth, I am just trying to simplify the argument)
When thousands of debters and house owners defaulted their mortgage payment, the Banks wanted to attach the property. Remember, by this time, thousands of Technical jobs were outsourced from USA to India and other satelite economies, and as a result of this thousands of USA Technocrats, who all lived in credit throughout their life, lost their jobs and didnt have enough money to repay the housing loans. And as large number of Technical workers lost jobs, there was less demand for new apartments and houses in a market, where there was already an oversupply, because of decades of housing boom. When the demand came down, that reflected in the price too. When the banks and finance institutions went to market to confiscate the property of the defaulters, they realized that, the price had gone down sharply. They had given 30 lakh rupees of loan to the property, which now has only 20 lakh market price. If they do not try to attach the property, that is a loss, and if they try to attach, that would result in more loss as the process of seizeing and auctioning a house, in a market where demand had gone down, was too expensive an option. We all know that as a consequence, Banks got bankrupted. But unlike Indian banks, USA banks are investment banks. That means, when some private group wants to build a big road project or Thermal power plant, instead of giving loan to the company, USA banks would persuade them — Our Bank can buy certain percentage of the shares of your company and when the company reaps benefits, please give back proportionate share of the profit. Accepting share of the profit is ten times profitable than accepting interest given for a loan to the company. This means, when a bank collapsed, it has serious repercussions.
Now let us come back to our own Bangalore. Every one knows that the boom in Bangalore happened when IT-BPO brought a lot of Dollar to Bangalore market. Without this huge inflow of US Dollars, the Real Estate boom would not have taken place. If the Real Estate boom didnt take place, tens of thousands of unskilled workers would not have worked in Bangalore and sent back some money to their rural families. That is why every one likes US business happening in Bangalore.
Things are not different in USA. When a lot of “money” flow into the system, a lot of business activity takes place. A lot of real estate buildings, boom in the market. The only difference between Bangalore and USA is the source of money. When export to USA bring a lot of “money” to Bangalore, USA is also getting a lot of money pouring into its system. We have briefly discussed above that the wealth is pouring into USA from third world countries.
Let us assume that a guy starts a shop in Jayanagar and assures the investors that he will give 20% interest to investors. And many guys from Malleswaram, JP Nagar, Hyderabad, Peiking, Portland, Pakistan, Pondicherry and St. Petersburg will come and invest in that shop. This guy will be able to return high interest, no doubt. By the time the first 5 guys come back and ask for his return, he would have got 2000 new investors. This money chain business will go on and on. But remember, no real wealth is created. Only the money from many pocket is flowing to a few pockets and people mistake it as “wealth generation”. Logically, ti can not happen infinitely and some time, it is going to collapse.
Well, we all know that till the time of Reagan America was facing Stagnation and high inflation. (stagflation).
Did Reagan introduce any new economic vision for increasing productivity in USA? Did Reagan inspired the American scientists to do new technological innovations? Did Reagan, presented any new investmen t philosophy to the world? Did he give any new vision? Nothing. He did nothing. Reagan believed in horoscope and most of his decisions were incluenced by horoscope predictions. (Chief of Staff Donald Regan’s (not to be confused with Ronald Reagan himself- Donald is anotrher person) memoir “For the Record.”). He blindly believed tax-cut theory etc without ever verifying if it will work.
What he diid is to convert USA into a money chain business model. Rich from anywhere in the world can come and invest in USA and they will get more profit. During Ronald Reagan’s time, USA effectively closed down all manufacturing industries and the entire USA was converted into a fiancial business house. Naturally rich people from all over the world came to USA for quick gains and to multiply their profits. And it worked for some deacades. But like any other model, where you dont create the real wealth it was bound to collapse some time and it collapsed in 2008.
And our friends now argue that Reaganomics failed because they didnt regualte the market.
Reagan was saying exactly the opposite. According to him and the Capitalist economists of Neo-liberal world, The american economy met with the twin crisis of stagnation and inflation because the Govt prior to that intervened and they regulated the economy. So they decided to remove all regulations.
If USA regulated the economy, majority of those who bought apartmetns and houses in USA would not have bought those houses and the boom would not have taken place in USA. Reagan advocated something called supply-side economics. If I can over-simplify it– it is like this—
the Conventional wisdom is that, if there is a demand in the market, you can sell products and that will trigger more production. That means if htere are more rich consumers who can afford to buy Television, refrigerator, Furniture, Flats, cars, primary education, Management education, two wheelers, health schemes, heart operation service or Prajavani Newspaper, people will buy it. That is why more number of newspapers are sold in Bangalore city than in the rest of Karnataka. Times of India’s focus is one city, that is bangalore, where as Deccan Herald focus entire Karnataka, and every one knows who wins. In Churumuri, you have same ten people post comments where as 100 people post comments in a Malayalam regional languae newspaper blog. More cars are sold in seven metros in India.
But what Reagans said is– if there is no demand in the market, then produce more and more products and push into the market. The excess supply of products will create its own demand.
That is why Reagan removed all regulations. He provided credit-facility. He ecnouraged citizens to buy in credit. If America gave loan only to those eligible for loan and who can repay, then tens of thousands of people would not have purchased the houses. American authority knew that most of these people cant repay this loan. That is why they are called “sub-prime-mortgage-loans” . The kannada Translation given in the Websters English Dictionary for “subprime-loans” is “thagontu Hogi baddi magane, neevella nale vaapas koduthano.. Eno.?…. Yarige gothu.. thagoli Saala…”. When American authority itself believed that these loans are not “prime-loans” but “sub-prime-loans” they knew that there is high risk of giving it. Still, they had to give it to encourage activity in the market. Without which financial capital would not have come to USA system., Without which, boom would not have taken place..
That means, the solution Reagan suggested for the problems of State intervention-model and regulated-market is to remove all regulation. And the solution suggested by our new economists to the problems of Reaganomics and its problem is “regulation” itself.
It is like an old lady told me– if Plastic cover is creating pollution, put it in another plastic cover. Okay, what to do with the second plastic cover? Put it in the first plastic cover. In short, you put the first plastic cover in the second plastic cover and put the second plastic cover in the first plastic cover and both will disappear. No plastic pollution. Simple.
The state intervention and regulation in the market created stagflation of 1970s and the solution to that problem is remove all regulation and remove all state intervention. And this new experiment has failed miserabl by 2008. And the solution to that problem is — state intervention and regulation innodu sala nodonaa….
What a wonderful idea Sirji…
If we read little more about Pre-Reagan-Thatcher and post-Reagan-Thatcher era, it is obvious for all that, USA economic fall was not because of “lack or regulation”.On the contrary, it was a fundamental crisis.
Many of us may not like it– But the solution to today’s problem is Socialism. And more accurately Marxism. Dont believe me– Read this Guardian report — http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jul/04/the-return-of-marxism
it is interesting to see that a lot of Rich American Indians and even other Americans are eager to help Narendra Modi, in all ways including financially. There is a lot of money being channelled in the name of Sardar Patel memorial etc. How much money goes to where , God only knows.
1. http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2013-08-25/news/41444083_1_vibrant-gujarat-narendra-modi-visa/2
2. http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/world/after-modi-rajnath-now-a-cashcow-for-chicago-businessman/article4916828.ece
3. http://kafila.org/2013/03/29/modi-meets-with-ethics-probed-us-member-of-congress-zahir-janmohamed/
And the RSS is already finding its funds from the USA and other western countries. When Congress and BJP gets fund from Corporates, Janata Dal and other parties do corruption to get funds, BJP and RSS have a well established network to collect fund. Money attracts mobs. With money you can buy people and votes no doubt–
1. http://comminfo.rutgers.edu/~lyonsm/hindunatbib.html
2. http://www.human-rights-for-all.org/spip.php?article28
Why BJP, Narendra Modi and RSS are getting more funds from USA and West? Why rich NRI business men are more interested to see Narendra Modi as head of govt. Many of them have business interests. And many of them are still thinking the Reaganomics is the solution to India’s problems.
This bankrupted ideology can not take India to anywhere. These group of businessmen who have, arguably, limited knowledge about the complexities of India’s problems can take India to disaster.
———————————–
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Dr. Ramesh:
Manmohan Singh, became PM, because of support from SoniaG. All his children are independent and never used their parents as crutches. But, is Manmohan Singh a dynast for he took support from SoniaG (who is unarguably dynastic)?
A fool can make any argument and there are no paucity of fools.
Dynasty, an English word, means one thing – sequence of people inheriting their assets/privileges by virtue of birth.
It doesn’t mean anyone associated and doing work with such families are also dynasty or dynastic! Look up dictionary.You have privilege for your opinion, but not to facts or defined language.
By no definition of word ‘dynasty’ can BJP/RSS & CPI be called Dynastic, because no one inherits the party/power because of birth/family lineage – like it is the case in JD(S) or congress.
Anyway – You can wake up a man who is sleeping, not one who is pretending.
So, If you want to argue BJP is dynastic – no one can stop you or change your argument. If you want to argue JD(S) is the storehouse of virtue, no one can stop you either. If you want to argue, Sun raises from west, no one can argue or stop you.
people by and large however, know what JD(S) is and is not. How dynastic HDD-HDK or Karunanidhi are. People know of the incredible wealth amassed in short time by these folks and they also know of their family values by counting of their declared/undeclared wives and children.
So, I wish you a grand pretend sleep.
When you choose to stop pretending to sleep, follow your own advice – cut off all association with India to condemn its corrupt rulers!!
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Harkol,
This is the problem with NAMO, RSS abhimaanis. They speak, others should listen, no opposition. They dictate rules, others should follow but should not expect NAMO, RSS to follow them.
This is fascist mindset.
I don’t say dynastic politics is bad, in fact I support it. So I am clear in my stance. But organisations like RSS,BJPand people like NRN and Co.deep inside their hearts are strong proponents of dynastic rule but on FACE BOOK, TWITTER and MEDIA they talk about merit.
And RSS supporters like yourself blindly believe that nonsense without having the temperament to think, study and question.
I am sorry Mr.harkol, even u r affected by the SAMOOHA SANNI of RSS, modi. Few minutes of independent thinking can make u come out of this.
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The following are the demands by a woman who admires Gandhiji–
1. A government takeover of all banks and measures to curb financial speculation
2. Genuine “participatory democracy” and steps to curb political corruption
3. Decent housing for all, and an end to all foreclosures
She is not a communist. Some of us will be astonished to know that here is a Christian Nun, fighting for the leftist ideals…. No she is not trying to become Prime Minister. She is not claiming to stand for elections, or to become the prime minister candidate..
Read this BBC report – http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24079227
Here is a rare video, that I can find online, in which she speaks in English.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Oj3Vqo1lww . In all videos, that I watched, she speaks passionately, but not aggressively. Sure she is not eligible to become a Prime Minister candidate.
See this video, where at the 5th minute she tells something.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2594lQJ8YJo
My understanding about human being is that, people who have vision, who have intelligence, who have compassion for fellow people, would always speak from their heart. They undergo pain, and they dont talk about politics or revolution because they want to gain anything for themselves…
In the BBC report, she talks about love. Love for all humans. Watch her body language, that shows an open mind, accommodating, sharing..
Why do we think a leader should be aggressive, sadistic, abusive, blaming, selfish, mean and power-greedy.. and above all, why some of us think our leaders should be merciless and brutal in their approach?
Okay, her political stands are endorsing what we discussed above. She is asking to curb speculative finance Capital.
If I say, Capitalism is crumbling.. and Socialism is the future, many of our friends will get angry with me… Let us wait and see.
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“A fool can make any argument and there are no paucity of fools.”
I think, that is not a decorous comment for a gentleman like harkol to make.
My humble opinion is– dynasty politics is improper. But not criminal. I didnt criticise Narayana Murthy when he wanted to promote his son. I dont even disagree.
I indeed disagree Kumaraswamy automatically becoming JD leader. But to be fair, I dont think (and the available reports/later developments/evidences show that, DeveGowda, was not very enthusiastic to promote Kumara Swamy to be leading Karnataka JD(S). He even tried to send him to center. He expressed to many political leaders that, “the MLAs and other leaders are with Kumaraswamy, and he couldnt do much.” When ever Devegowda, tried to field an old time worker, Kumaraswamy do not campaign enthusiastically. Yes, father and son both can be blamed, but I think father is more well meaning.
“Devegowda tried to do injustice to Ramakrishna Hedge” is totally baseless. These are things happened in the near past. Rama Krishna Hedge was always a media Tiger. It was Nijalingappa who brought his shishya to become the Chief Minister when Bangarappa of Krantiranga Congress, Deve Gowda and SR Bommai wanted to become Chief Minister. Though he was known for his sophisticated manners, and in his early years, he got the name of good administrator, RK Hedge never fought along with people and never participated in any mass agitations. HD Devegowda was supporting and participating in farmers’ struggles and even spent time in jail. What Rama Krishna Hegde was doing is well known: “RK said that there have been many women in his life — so..” this is the words of some one who was close to RK Hegde, I dont want to drag respected personality’s name here, but the important point is — in RK Hedge’s own words, he had “many women”. I am not making any derogatory remarks. With genuine respect, let me say he was candid and never tried to hide anything. But to argue, he was better politician or champion of people is without any base. Yes, during his initial years, he was more sophisticated compared to Gowda. And during his last years, he exhibited his selfish side more. Some argue that he was depressed. But the truth was he was too much obsessed with himself. Again, I dont want to discuss about that, as he is a tall leader, who contributed immensely tor this society.
Just before 1994 election, RamaKrishna Hegde was arguing that, in order to oppose BJP, Janata Dal should merge with Congress. Even JH Patil couldnt agree with this. The reason – RK Hedge didnt like VP singh announcing Mandal Commission.
He only did token campaign for janata Dal prior to dec 1994 election. In many places, he promised to attend public election meetings, but refused to arrive to deliberately embarrass Janata Dal candidate. But because Bangarappa’s Karanataka Congress party divided congress votes, and because Muslims were angry with Congress, Janata Dal got an unexpected victory. But a power-greedy RK Hegde wanted to become Chief Minister. There was indeed stone throwing incident, but even RK Hedge’s right hand JH Patil later opined (he condemned stone throwing), RK Hegde who didnt actively participate in political karyakramas of late, should not have tried impose himself as CM.
Of course, RK Hegde was minister even before Devegowda, partly because he was close to Nijalingappa. On the contrary, Deve Gowda was opposition leader during Gundu Rao period, led agitations for people, not corrupt then, continuously got elected from 1962 to 1989. Was the tallest opposition leader of that time. Yet he agreed to give power to RK Hegde, no one accused HDD that he was indulged in groupism. Even after RKH’s second resignation, Deve Gowda,didnt play groupism, but accepted Bommai as Chief Minister. Even Bangarappa became CM before Deve Gowda.
When HDD was selected as PM, RKH gave a false complaint against Devegowda using one of his aids. “The filing of a writ petition in the Bangalore High Court in connection with a case against Deve Gowda just a week before the confidence vote” was the reason Hegde was expelled – Indiatoday,July 15, 1996
I agree with Dr. Ramesh saying Deve Gowda didnt go after power beyond a reasonable way.
As far as I can see, it is not DeveGowda, but his rivals who played caste politics more.
Of course, he got Vokkaliga votes- but he didnt play blatant caste politics like the way Siddaramaiha did during Ahinda politics, or Yeddyurappa later, BJP played caste politics during mandal and violent Hindutva politics. Advani himself explained later that, when VP singh implemented Mandal, RSS suspected that it was a strategy to divide them, hence intensified Hindutva politis
I remember, after the losses in the bi-elections, (when HDD was PM), Devegowda insisted JH Patil should be given more freedom to run govt. And his supporting and giving more power to Lingayat leaders was one reason why Byregowda (who was loyal to Devegowda till then) turned rival. At that time, the Indian Express, KannadaPrabha and section of lawyers (high court bench) also played games to create wedge between lingayat and vokkaliga leadership within Janata Dal. Later, coming out of JD(U), ByreGowda formed All India Progressive Janata Dal and joined Congress. But remember Vijay Mallya made revelation that many he had to pay a huge amount to get Rajya Sabha seat support, indicating Byre gowda. Others who keep blaming Devegowda as corrupt are Yeddyurappa, Bache Gowda, Eswarappa, DK Shiva Kumar, Bellari Reddys. What credibility these people have – they are all neck-deep in corruption.
Almost all those who criticized Devegowda as corrupt, are proved to be more corrupt later, but DeveGowda is not implicated as of today. It was BJP which came with a booklet claiming Devegowda’s family amassed 1500 crores of wealth. But they conveniently forgot to even make a serious inquiry. They didnt utter a word about that during the last assembly election. Why?
The problem with caste system is that, most highly educated caste people look down on OBCs, Vokkaligas, Dalits and Muslims. Even the Lingayat Shettaru look down on Lingayat Gowdaru. Not many members from farmers castes are in the media, and the they present a nice image about people like RK Hegde, SMK, Yeddyurappa, Anant Kumar and so on. The evidence available in public domain shows that DeveGowda is less corrupt than all cynosure of media and urban middle-class online users.
But my disagreement with Dr. Ramesh is about Kumaraswamy. How can any one say Kumara Swamy is honest? How can any one say Kumaraswamy is principled or ethical? I agree with harkol when he ask: “what was the declared assets of HDK before he entering politics and after that?”
Essentially what Kumaraswamy did within janata Dal is the same thing Modi does within BJP. both are efficient. Both are greedy, both are selfish, both are pro-corporate, both implemented anti-democratic and pro-corporate policies, both administrations were corrupt in the sense, they gave undue support to certain business houses, by incurring losses to state exchequer, both are not having the experience and seniority (compared to other leaders) to become the top leaders, both played dirty groupism and used money power to impose themselves as leaders of their respective parties.
The only differences are Kumaraswamy has real concern for poor (while supporting corporate), he understand the problems of people, especially poor. Kumaraswamy really proved that he is a good administrator and his records shows that he is one of the good Chief Ministers of Karnataka. where as Modi is better known for his criminal side, no concern for poor (show me one evidence, otherwise), Modi proved he is a puppet in the hands of some corporates and proved he is one of the worst administrators (despite all what media says – chief minister’s duty is not to pass the bill that Adani or ambani group prepare in their corporate office), and as Chief Minister Modi didnt do anything significant for his state –whether it is Human Development Index or any other development units.
While, I consider, Kumaraswamy and most bjp leaders are corrupt, the reason why more people criticize Deve Gowda, Siddaramaiah et al, is more due to their caste bias. But to argue that Devegowda, Kumaraswamy, Siddaramaiha et al are 100% honest is a joke. If Dr.Ramesh thinks dynasty politics is acceptable, that is his opinion. If dynastic politics is acceptable, Brahmin dominance in the society is also acceptable.
I would really prefer to stay away from these caste inspired tussle here, in the future.
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Shemej:
>I think, that is not a decorous comment for a gentleman like harkol to make.
I didn’t make an indecorous comment at all! it is a statement of fact. fools make foolish arguments, that reveals total lack logic or coherence. And there are many such.
My problem is not with someone supporting Dynastic politics. That is an opinion & his privilege. However ill considered.
But, to change the meaning of a word as it is defined is to be foolish. Can you be called a Dynast or of practising dynastic principle, If in your business/work you deal with a dynasty? Can someone call East as west, and north as south, and still consider it as a matter of ‘opinion’?
Words, terms,equations have specific meaning. When someone chooses to ignore well defined and accepted convention, rules and definitions and make his own, what else can you call that person other than a fool?
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Along with Dr Ramesh, Dr Shemej is also late for his lobotomy! Wow what a defence of Dirty Devegowda!
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Anybody can call anyone “dirty”. Please substantiate with valid points. I am not asking “evidence”, at least people should give some supporting reliable news report, some document, at least a logically valid argument, etc.
In an internet forum, people respond spontaneously. and instantly. Not always, people can show “concrete proofs”. However, there is a thin line between facts and lies. But, there is a huge difference between those who passionately debate for what they think is correct, and those who are blatant liars. Let me say sincerely, dont you think you will be giving room for mistaking your intentions, to anyone who revisit these pages, say, after 10 years? Please give something , at least something to support “allegations” so that, others can attempt to give a reply….
What can one reply, if authors argue, “congress leader xxx is dirty, because he belongs to xxx caste”, BSP leader xxx is dirty, because he belongs to xxx caste”, Forwardbloc leader xxx is dirty because he belongs to xxx caste, my neighbour xxx is dirty because he belongs to xxx caste, person sitting at railway ticket counter named, xxx is dirty because he belong to xxxx caste etc.
I can see doddy buddy participating here, at least from 2006. I believe he has good intentions. A gentleman, who sincere and consistent in his line, is little blunt, (and perhaps a little too prejudiced.). No offence intended.
Personally, I dont consider Devegowda perfect, not even average. He stands for rural rich farmers. But he is thousand times better than most other Karnataka polititians, except, may be, Nanaiah, Jairam Ramesh, KS Puttannaiah, GN Nagaraj, YSV Datta, our own Siddaramaiah et al… For a change, please see here – http://www.ndtv.com/article/south/meet-ysv-datta-the-politician-who-travels-in-an-auto-396550
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Shemej, as usual u are very right and u have shared a great bit of information.
I said dynastic politics is acceptable to the extent that it is as common as viral fever in India. Every one practices it, but many pose that they are averse to it. Worst form of AATMAVANCHANE.
Imagine, a Tech CZAR could not desist the temptation of passing on his company to his kin, how can one expect a politician not to pass on his political legacy to his son or daughter. Its a rule of nature, no one can overrule it.
HDK is classical example of A WELL INTENTIONED, MASS LEADER becoming a victim of conspiracies hatched by deteriorating political system in karnataka, encouraging aspect is HDK has proved his mettle inspite of hardships.
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Dr. Ramesh, if everyone else does it, that is not a justification for Janata Dal to do it. The difference between a corporate house and a political party is–
A corporate model is where all power is “concentrated at the top”. Where in a democratic political party, all power is “with the people, or at the bottom” .
When a political party follows a corporate model, then that party cease to be a democratic political party and moves towards becoming a fascist party. (not yet, just beginning to become one)
That is why we call BJP/RSS/Jamaat e Islami fascist parties. And not because they stand for Hindu or muslim communal views.When a political party stands for commuanal ideals, then that party becomes a communal party (like muslim league), but it can not be called a fascist organisation.
Copying different aspects of “corporate structure” to a political parrty will ultimately make it a Fasicst party. “Dynasty politics” is definitely one aspect of “adopting corporate structure into Janata Dal”. But that is only one aspect. But it weakens the democratic structure of janata Dal from within.
A democratic political party must have a “democratic Aatma or soul”. A democratic “soul” should have a democratic “body”.
When top leaders practice “dynastic politics” it can not inspire young mind to its ranks. Naturally, people who join Janata Dal will have some or another vested interests. And leaders with vested interests often can not hide their vested interests.
Which leader in Janata Dal doesnt have vested interest? (MP Prakash is no more). People are watching. They have intelligence. Not everyone understand and study about the dangers of fascism. Not every one understand why it is important to practise secular politics and why it is important to give emphasis to agricultural economy , why it is importance to give emphasis to rural economy etc. When people see a good drama or movie, they identify easily with main characters and they only remember Villains and heroes. Most people, including our well meaning friends like Harkol, watch the drama by janata dal and they can not be blamed if they come to the conclusion that Janata Dal is full of vested interest. (Yes they are wrong in praising the worst political parties- and that is their problem).
People will continue to mistake Janata Dal as a coterie of vested interests. If Janata Dal really wants to avoid it, let it democratically elect leaders from grass root level. Give representation to all sections, all caste and religious groups, to women, students, trade union activists, social activists, disable workers, RTI activists, media activists, farmers, agricultural workers, retired employees, lawyers, folklore artists, theater activists etc. Secondly, let it ensure it connects at least 60% of its fund from grass root level. At present if Janata Dal tries to connect fund from grass roots, bulk of fund will never reach party, but will be eaten by local leaders. But ensure a system (use registration of ordinary people using mobile phone or internet and keep proper record, encourage payment through banks etc.) is place so that leakage can be minimized, if not completely avoided
I really hope Janata Dal will be able to do something here in Karnataka. I really dont want to vote for Mukesh Ambani’s political wing BJP and Congress. At least I need to vote some one. I really dislike to vote Janata Dal at the present form.
I know some people will call me arrogant or a puritan. I am not. I am not expecting political leaders to be angels. But I really dont want to be led by pack of animals. Thanks for understanding. And thanks in advance who will shower “shit, stool and all such abusive words” on me. I think I can understand their anger.
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“ensure it connects at least 60% of its fund”
Please read as “collect the fund” and not “connect the fund”. Sorry for the error.
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Mr.shemej,
Political and political parties are indicators of society from which they emerge. They do not emerge from another planet. Support for dynastic politics in India from decades reflects the deep rooted family values and vestiges of monarchism present in Indian Psyche.
As long as the SUPER EDUCATED, ELITE, RICH CLASS continues to practise double standards wrt to dynasty, dynastic politics will continue . Shemej, ramesh and others in churumuri like it or not.
There is no point harping on Utopian outdated concepts like NON DYNASTIC FULLY MERIT kind of politics, as CHIDU said —– it would be FAKE ENCOUNTER WITH FACTS.
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“Political and political parties are indicators of society from which they emerge. They do not emerge from another planet.”
Agree. Most good people just want to avoid all trouble. They prefer to sit indoors. And those who are willing to participate in any (moderate or big) struggle, (at least a section of them) are not motivated by any principle.
A political party exists, not to point out all hurdles in front of us. Is that our objective? Our real objective is to remove those hurdels and find a way to bring in change.
I really wish Janata Dal secular will become an important force in India (I know it is unlikely, mainly because of its leaders). This is not because, I have a center-left political view. I am a leftist. Only center-left parties can reach out to the masses in India, at present, and in the near future.
See RSS/BJP how they strengthen the party. They dont conduct a public meeting and explain their promises to people and people get attracted to their policies and vote for them. What they do is, using their various wings, they bring in structural changes in society and create polarization. (their short cut is to conduct a massive communal violence just like what they did recently in Muzaffer nagar and during coalition govt, in Mangalore). When society is deeply divided, you can be only in one side of the divided society.
What Janata Dal needs to do is same– Divide society, not based on Jaati, religion etc. But on good things. janata Dal can easily conduct agitations against corrupt “LPG distributers in Karnataka. Tell me a single LPG distributer, where private vehicles are not filling gas, and when people book LPG cylinder, they dont get it.
If you have people like Kumaraswamy at top, you cant do such agitation. Janata Dal can grow only through public agitation. Grama vastavya, appointment of Yadava or kuruba leader etc can bring only short term benefits.
If tomorrow, Janata Dal tries to organize a political struggle, it will easily understand that it cant find cadres to participate in the struggles. No one wants to lose, but only wants to gain. But if Janata Dal insist that only those who bring cadres to agitation, only those who recruit new members, and only those who contribute share of income to party (paying monthly contribution to organisation) can be elected to leadership, some people will come forward. And each agitation will give you more cadres. The social and political agitation in any society is a churning process. That will throw out honest leaders at local level. (it will not create any new honest people in society). Such new leaders will be less corrupt and more principled (at least in a short term). Such churning process will slowly divide the Communal parties like BJP or RSS. If you organize a struggle against a corrupt local LPG distributer, people will watch who is helping these corrupt people. You should understand that, Congress and BJP/RSS are funded by business groups. If Congress and BJP DO NOT support corrupt businessmen, they will not get fund tomorrow. See how Veerappa Moily is doing Dasya vruthi for Mukesh Ambani, who is deliberately scaling down the production of Gas at KG basin. People can see this. You yourself posted somewhere why Narendra Modi is silent about scam in IPL. If Narendra Modi complain, BJP will not get election fund. Simple. See the structure of IPL team, if you take majority share holders of all IPL teams in India, majority of them are RSS sympathiser- Gujarat based and marwadi businessmen. Except a few percentage of population who have surrendered their intelligence (or lack of it) to crazy communal and caste ideology, majority of the people will see who is helping whom.
See, how RSS is surrendering to the pressure of Gujarat based NRI businessmen to nominate Narendra Modi as their Prime Minister candidate, even though majority of the existing BJP leaders are not accepting this low intelligent, less civilized guy, RSS is imposing Modi on them. Though they call it, pressure from cadres (we all know that RSS never bothered about what people at grass root level say), it is the pressure from their finance sources. I have given links elsewhere showing RSS and BJP gets bulk of their money from NRI businessmen based in USA and UK. When they pay BJP/RSS they buy BJP/RSS. DeveGowda himself admitted that he had to give seats to Real estate barons in Bangalore, “out of compulsion” . What does that mean? When a group keep funding a political party, they can buy the political party. Why Zameer Ahmed is keep threatening Janata Dal? Every one knows that he pays, hence he can influence Janata Dal. Similarly, RSS and BJP will urinate when Gujarat NRIs dictate. That is a simple logic. It is just a fact that Gujarat community is the number one group funding RSS and BJP. Gujaratis form the number 1 linguistic group among NR-Indian businessmen in USA. There are some key figures who have big demands with BJP/RSS. BJP/RSS in return have promised , if come to power, to give away big National assets to these groups at throw away price. That is a big gambling. If Modi gets elected some of the greatest monuments of India will be gifted to these “fund contributers” in the name of setting up Hotel industry etc. Already huge amount of money is being collected in the name of Sardar Patil memorial. RSS is collecting fund, from each NRI businessman if they want to get a chance to talk with Modi in person. They all want some thing in return if BJP come to power.
What Janata Dal needs to do is, organize agitations against these gifting of public properties and monuments. If any NRI-Hotel group is going to be gifted any monuments in India, some of them will be from Karnataka, where Janata Dal has some base. Organize public against these robbers. First ensure that these corporates are bankrupted, that will help to undermine BJP/RSS from its base. Remember, RSS/BJP is built from top. It has no base at grass root level. Once its, funding is stopped, it will collapse. Janata Dal has some base in the ground.
You cannot bring cadres from another planet, is correct. That is a pragmatic understanding, and that shows Dr.Ramesh live in a society, unlike most of these Hindutva sympathisers – they float in the wind and talk like ganja addicts. But all of them are not evil. Most of them are well meaning, but lacks touch with reality. You show some good works, they will support. If you never churn this society, you can never grow. Prolonged mass agitations will bring honest/ principled people with leadership quality to the forefront. You cant create honest people. But they are there– somewhere –hidden. Some of them are reading your postings at Churumuri. But majority of them cant read English. Right now they are silent. They are great cinics. When you churn the society, people will be forced to take positions. If you conduct agitation against Relieance for scaling down production (against the contract) every citizen in India will be forced to take a position, because people pay for petrol, diesel or LPG.
No plan to organize people’s agitations? then please publish own websites and autobiographies and keep reading. It will at least help to increase vocabulary. Of late Kumaraswamy is showing a lot of behaviour patterns resembling that of Late Rama Krishna Hedge. is he really paranoid? Ramakrisna hedge during his last years conduct so many programmes where people keep praising him (understandably by accepting something in return). Kumaraswamy also build “fans association” . Why cant he understand, these are viewed as his ಅಲ್ಪತ್ವ ! When will he realize people know very well, if any one pays 250 rupees each to 10 people, they will all start praising any mahatva, greatness of any leader. What we really need is, a political party to organize mass agitations against corporate looting of this nation.
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Shemej:
I didn’t bother to read your full post because you were caught lying early on in the post. Aaj Tak has already exposed what actually happened in the Muzaffarnagar riots. Yet you continue to lie, blaming the “BJP-RSS” for ‘artificially engineering the riots’.
Kejriwal had initially blamed the BJP-RSS for MN riots, but quietly took out that press release from his website as soon as the truth was established. Yet, you continue to lie.
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Shemej,
Your posts surely raise the standard of debate in churumuri. Regarding JD S, IT is at crossroads, its going thru tough times, but fact that JD S is an offshoot of janata parivar, and deve gowda is still fighting hard for justice gives me hope.
Kumaraswamy is very practical politician, he had to do political maneuvering which some felt was not befitting of janata parivar ideology, but survival of the party was critical and steps taken to resuscitate party should be viewed in that sense. Yet HDK turned out to be the best CM karnataka had seen in decades.
Five more years of opposition role will make HDK an asset in karnataka and Indian politics.
After biju patnaik, Congress dominated orissa politics, but time moulded naveen patnaik and he is unstoppable in orissa now, HDK AND JD S will do the same in karnataka.
THIRD FRONT should come to power with LEFT PARTIES and JD S support., India should discard its AMERICA CENTRIC policy, get close to WORLD LEADER VLADIMIR PUTIN. build good relationship with NICOLAS MADURO of Venezuela, and India will prosper.
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Muzaffer Nagar – “you were caught lying early on in the post. ”
I hope Churumuri will allow to publish this report, for the larger interest of promoting social harmony, by exposing the evil elements.
Instead of bad mouthing people who raise uncomfortable questions, kindly let us show some courage to give evidence to strengthen arguments. Let us not show cowardice, by throwing abuses and running away.
Evidences talk louder than propaganda. All what RSS says is proved wrong here. There is no “love jihad”. “there is no misbehaving of Jat girl”, though two hindu boys were killed, BJP/RSS workers spread false video of a totally different incident happened in Pakistan….If this report is right, then Narendra Modi’s followers incited communal riots in Muzaffer Nagar. If this report is wrong, then, let BJP file a defamation case against NDTV, in the court.
“The Mystery of Kawwal: Were Muzaffarnagar riots based on distortion of facts?”
by Sreenivasan Jain (with inputs from Niha Masih and Tanima Biswas)
“Muzaffarnagar: In the popular narrative, the genesis of Muzaffarnagar riots sets it up in this way: on August 27, two Jat boys, Sachin and his cousin Gaurav, from Malikpura village killed Shahnawaz, a Muslim from the nearby village of Kawwal because was harassing their sister.
In retaliation, a Muslim mob killed the boys. The administration acted in a partisan manner, which set off a chain of violence and retaliation.
The deaths of all three are a verified fact, as are some serious doubts over the police response.
But the reasons ascribed to justify the killing of Shahnawaz (and by default the riots that followed) — the supposed protection of the honour of Jat women — are not borne out by the facts. (Muzaffarnagar clashes: Latest developments)
Sachin’s sister Ritu says she has never been to Kawwal nor does she know Shahnawaz.
……
Shahnawaz’s father, Salim says Gaurav and Shahnawaz clashed when their motorcycles collided in the village lanes.
In the police records at Jamsath thana, under which Kawwal and Malikpura fall, there is no mention of the harassment of women.
Two separate FIRs were registered. According to the FIR for Sachin and Gaurav’s death, registered by Gaurav’s father, Ravinder Kumar, he says his son had a bike accident with someone called Mujassim, which led to the altercation. ….
The FIR for Shahnawaz’s death names Gaurav, Sachin, Prahlad, Vishan, Tendu, Devendra, Yogender and Jitendra. It says all the accused came to Kawwal, forcibly entered Shahnawaz’s house and took him out. They were armed with knives and swords. They injured him and left him half-dead. He died later on the way to the hospital.
…..
For that matter, the police have not arrested any of the Jat boys named in the FIR for the killing of Shahnawaz.
…..
BJP MLA Suresh Rana, from Shamli adjacent to Muzaffarnagar, claims the harassment of women is what he had heard when he visited Malikpura.
NDTV had reported earlier that Hindutva groups like the VHP have made what they call ‘Love Jihad’ (the alleged abduction or harassment of Hindu women by Muslim youth) part of their propaganda. The district president of the VHP told us that the Kawwal incident is very much in keeping with this trend, though he had no empirical evidence to prove it.
A fake YouTube video circulated by BJP MLA from nearby Meerut, Sangeet Som, also played on similar themes. It shows two boys being beaten to death by a mob, indicating that they are Sachin and Gaurav.
The video was, in fact, shot in Sialkot in Pakistan, and is two years old. Som has been booked by the police for inciting hatred amongst communities.
A massive Mahapanchayat called by Jats on September 7 demanding justice for the Kawwal incident was labelled a ‘bahu bachao, beti bachao’ sammelan (Save our wives and daughters meeting). As the meeting dispersed, violent clashes broke out, a cycle of retaliation which continues to this day.
….”
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/the-mystery-of-kawwal-were-muzaffarnagar-riots-based-on-distortion-of-facts-418666
I am giving a lengthy excerpts from NDTV.com report
This very clearly shows, who is responsible for communal riots.
I dont blame the Jats or Muslims villagers. Even the Hindus who participated in violence are only victims. There were calculated lies spread to instigate raw communal passions.
BJP leader who participated in the Mahapanchayat himself clarified that the Mob was insisting to project Narendra Modi as prime minister, and shouted every one else down.
This is exactly why Amit Shah was given charge of Uttar Pradesh by Narendra Modi. And Amit Shah is an expert in one art– every one knows what.
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