BHAMY V. SHENOY writes from Houston, Texas: When Houston’s Non-Resident Indians learnt of the selection of Sonal Shah (in picture, left) to the 15-member transition team set up by US President-elect Barack Obama, we were happy and proud of her achievement.
But we were quickly shell-shocked when we heard of the virulent attack on her choice by self-styled ‘progressive” groups such as Coalition against Genocide, Indian American Coalition for Pluralism, Non-Resident Indians for a Secular and Harmonious India.
These “progressive” groups seem to be intoxicated with their victory in preventing the grant of a US visa to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi.
Though many of us did not fully agree with such an extreme step, we could appreciate the spirit behind it and even had some appreciation. After all, most of us were shocked and even shamed by Godhra massacre. However, with their latest attempt to discredit a reputed and highly accomplished Sonal Shah, they would have lost what little credibility they might have had with a majority of secularists, including yours truly.
How could they stoop down to connect Sonal with Godhra, or the recent killings of Christians, with Ekal Vidyalaya?
Sonal Shah, who graduated from Houston and whose parents live in Houston, is known to all those NRIs who are involved in contributing to India’s development, along with her brother Anand and sister Roopal. These three have devoted their considerable talents and time to work on various activities to contribute to India’s development.
Just two are illustrative of their dedication.
Exhibit A: Indicorps started by Sonal and Anand recruits young volunteers from the US to work with NGOs in India. Indicorps has accomplished a lot and has been recognized by many organizations. Sonal was honored by India Abroad as “Person of the year” for her contribution in 2003.
Will these “progressive” organizations boycott India Abroad as fundamentalist since their strategy seems to depend upon finding one harmful through guilt-by-association?
Exhibit B: Ekal Vidyalaya, an NGO dedicated to spreading literacy in tribal and remote villages through single teacher schools, is a great success. The Shahs have played a key role in its development.
It is true that it may not be as secular as other equally well known educational NGOs like Pratham or Asha. But the very fact of the association of Abid Hussein, former Indian Ambassador to the US, with Ekal shows that it is not a fundamentalist organization as is being portrayed by these “progressive” groups.
While Sonal’s professional contributions have been outstanding through her work at Anderson Consulting, Goldman Sachs, and the treasury department during the Bill Clinton presidency by working in Kosovo, Bosnia, and Indonesia and currently as Vice President at Google, her NGO work through the George Soros Foundation and the Omidyar Network during the 2004 Tsunami tragedy should be a model for the youth.
Her brother Anand after graduating from Harvard did not attempt to cash his credentials to earn a six figure salary like most of us. He went to India looking for opportunities to serve the poor.
Being a long term resident of Houston, I know Sonal’s family for the last 30 years. Her father is a good friend of mine and I have worked on various projects and organizations with him. I was always surprised by his affiliation with Vishwa Hindu Parishat and had argued about it. I was happy to learn that he was against Modi’s Godhra massacre and he wished that it had not happened.
I never found Ramesh to be a fundamentalist in his views. I have also had discussions with his children about their parent’s affiliation with VHP and was happy to learn that their involvement was marginal at best and they never looked at the problem from a narrow “Hindutva” point of view.
It has become a fad for “progressive” groups to show how they are the only groups who are broadminded and that others who have different opinions are narrow minded bigots.
It is ironical that they quote Mahatma Gandhi’s from his book My Experiment with Truth—“It has always been a mystery to me how men can feel themselves honored by the humiliation of their fellow-beings”—while they indulge in such humiliation, as in Sonal’s case.
The three “progressive” groups protesting Sonal’s appointment are not really concerned about the unintended consequences of their stand resulting in further divisiveness and hatred in NRI community.
The Mahatma, even while disagreeing with his opponents, was always humble enough to understand and appreciate them. On the other hand, these progressives have been trying to pour venom by raising unconnected incidents as background to create demonic personality of Sonal.
Obama’s Republican opponents also tried to create such an ugly view of him by giving guilt-by-association examples of his long time priest, Jeremiah Wright.
Perhaps this may be the beginning of the rapid end for this progressive movement when the NRI community consisting of a secular thinking majority sees their real design of sowing hatred and divisiveness like the fundamentalist jihadis.
Photograph: courtesy Rediff.com
Also read: Why the US is right to deny Narendra Modi a visa
I am not at all surprised at the outrage. This gujarati lady is indirectly affiliated to communal groups from Gujarat who raise money to fund terrorism in India. Gujaratis were major contributors to Obama election campaign and Obama is just reciprocating the favors.
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This mischief mongering was started by Vijay Prashad, a commie academic from connecticut who contributes regularly to outlook, his worthelss commie viewpoints ad nauseaum. The best thing to do is to ignore the progressive vermins and move on. It is their last lap and they will die a natural death very shortly.
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Bhamy, firstly- congrats for standing for Sonal.
Little is expected from these Talibanised progressives- who have made an art out of condemning Hindus, their value and coopt Jehadis.
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What progressives? These are just religious nuts of other colors.
Some simple Google search shows:
Coalition against Genocide – Check their about page. Lots of organizations of this kind claim to be their constituents:
American Federation of Muslims of Indian Origin
Association of Indian Muslims of America
Indian Christian Forum
etc.
List goes on. No names are given.
Link: http://www.coalitionagainstgenocide.org/about.php
Indian American Coalition for Pluralism – No website.
Google search’s first link takes us directly to a Christian ‘persecution’ website. http://www.persecution.in/node/1576
Non-Resident Indians for a Secular and Harmonious India.
No website.
Who are the faces behind these organizations?
I wont be surprised to find some very religious people behind all the funding of all three of these organizations.
They are just fronts funded by fundamentalists of other religions to counter the VHP in the US.
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Also, what about Guj 2002? Its these people who abused Modi for 6 long years now shd apologise after report of Nanavati Commission report.
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“It is true that it may not be as secular as other equally well known educational NGOs like Pratham or Asha. But the very fact of the association of Abid Hussein, former Indian Ambassador to the US, with Ekal shows that it is not a fundamentalist organization as is being portrayed by these “progressive” groups.”
– Here is where Shri Shenoy loses his credibility with me. It is not of such great interest to learn that this journalist seems to be defending his friends from slander…not nearly as important as to learn if he is doing it with dignity. I don’t see that happening.
I ask Shri Shenoy, what is his measure of sincerity and goodness in any organization? The fact that an organization may not be secular and still doing a great deal of good or the instance of that self same organization being, shall we say, “commended” by a member of a minority? What if Shri Abid Hussein had not associated himself with EV?
What is the meaning of such Political Correctness that one feels as stepping over egg shells if one wants to appreciate good work done by a Hindu organization? Can EV be any other but a Hindu organization?
If Smt. Shah believes as Shri Shenoy does, then is there sense in defending her at all…knowing she cannot take the heat when the chips are down and stand by what she believes is right?
What indeed would Shri Shenoy’s opinion have been if he had not known this lady and her family?
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The guilt by association should have been because of Anderson Consulting, Goldman Sachs and not VHP …
And the dude on the right looks like he is as embarassed as an unexpected loud flatulence on stage :)
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=>I was happy to learn that he was against Modi’s Godhra massacre and he wished that it had not happened.<=
There you go again! If you believe Modi is guilty, you should not have any problem with Sonal Shah’s accusers. You let people to demonize RSS, VHP and let them equate “Hindutva” to demonic agenda of abrahamics. Now you have to agree that Ekal Vidyalaya, which runs hundreds of schoold for the underprovileged is to be condemned. People have let the fanatic, extremist, lunatic left to spread the lies time and again. Sorry, you can not ask the leftist beast to be selective in their fascistic agenda just because you know someone personally.
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Why bring Gandhi into this? Why bring Gandhi into anything? Can’t we function without invoking MK? Or are our philsophies so faulty that we have to support them with big names?
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“I was always surprised by his affiliation with Vishwa Hindu Parishat and had argued about it. I was happy to learn that he was against Modi’s Godhra massacre and he wished that it had not happened.
I never found Ramesh to be a fundamentalist in his views. I have also had discussions with his children about their parent’s affiliation with VHP and was happy to learn that their involvement was marginal at best and they never looked at the problem from a narrow “Hindutva” point of view.”
I came into this issue having no knowledge of the controversy. I read this post and found myself feeling a little sympathetic toward Ms. Sonal Shah. Then, of course, was the claim that Ramesh’s children’s involvement with the VHP was “marginal at best”. I did my research. I found this post to be bias, partisan and plainly dishonest. Ms. Sonal Shah was the National Co-coordinator for VHP-America for their Gujurat Relief effort. Of course, this was for a good cause. However, she could have picked ANY secular, non-divisive organisation to help Gujurat victims. Why did she pick the VHP? And apart from that she was a part of the VHP for three whole years. How did she get involved with the VHP and why did she stay involved? The answer is glaringly clear. Mr. Shenoy’s defense of the Sonal Shah breaks down in the face of facts. His statements that Ramesh’s children’s involvement was “marginal at best” is patently untrue. In fact, they were significant at best and very telling at worst. Along with a pattern of allowing themselves of being associated with the VHP (all the family included), they clearly are unapologetic Hindu Fundamentalists.
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p.s. this is the link proving Ms.Shah’s involvement with VHP-USA: http://www.vhp-america.org/dynamic/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=13
Here is their mission statement: “World Hindu Council of America, founded in 1970 and incorporated in the state of New York in 1974, is a nonprofit, tax exempt volunteer-based charitable organization serving the needs of Hindu community(who believe in, practice, or respect the spiritual and religious principles having origins in Bharat(India) which includes Jains, Buddhists, Sikhs and people of various religious sects within the Hindu Ethos) in US with a grand vision of building a dynamic Hindu society inspired by the eternal values of Dharma and the lofty ideal of Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam meaning ‘The entire creation is one family.’”
It thus seems blatantly obvious that the funds she raised would have been solely devoted to helping Hindu families with a bias against Muslims. If that’s not Fundamentalist, I dont know what is.
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BHAMY SHENOY WILL NOT TELL YOU THAT these names like coalition against genocide are funded by the biggest fundamentalist jihadis belonging to the ummah of the world. Their officials are muslims like hyder khan who collaborate with people like teesta setalvad with suadi funds.Teesta also uses similar misleading names like citizens for peace.Only Bhamy has woken up late like a true pseudo writing for churumuri.
First dont hide facts about theese progressives and then try convicting modi for modi’s socalled massacre without a shred of evidence.You english media would not get a court clerks job.U guys thrive
on psecular jihahdi christain funds and hindu hating.Your article wants it both ways because you know sonal family and as usual you are being swayed by personal emotions,not facts.
THeir is more truth in revealingg the people behind this coalition against genocide like hyder khan and teesta.Their is no truth in calling
gujarat Modi’s massacre when nanavati has cleared him.Bhamy you are not accountable to anyone like all corrupt media.So realize what you are
and try honest reporting for a change.See how dishonest churumuri which you write for censors this just like u hide the names of people behind this coalition that welcomes arab and pakistani dictatotors and sleeps when hindus are massacred in kashmir,bangladesh,pakistan.
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Exibit A!!! Exibit B!!! Are you some kind of lawyer defending a criminal. These Gujaratis living in a foreign countries and slaves of westerners do not deserve admiration from Indians. Modi is the remote control of these people and helps them to take out their frustrations.
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This is very comical, the make-up of CAG, that is.
“This anti-Hindu group, which called itself Coalition Against Genocide (CAG) included the following organisations:
Alliance for a Secular and Democratic South Asia (ASDSA)
American Federation of Muslims of Indian Origin (AFMI)
Association of Indian Muslims of America (AIM)
Association of South Asian Progressives (ASAP)
Center for Study and Research in South Asia (CERAS, Montreal)
Dharma Megha
Federation of Indian American Christian Organisations of North America (FIACONA)
Forum Of Inquilabi Leftists (FOIL)
Friends Of South Asia (FOSA)
Hindu Vaishnava Center for Enlightment
Indian Christian Forum (ICF)
Indian Muslim Educational Foundation of North America (IMEFNA)
Indian Muslim Council-USA (IMC-USA)
Indian Muslim Relief and Charities (IMRC)
International South Asia Forum (INSAF)
Muslim Youth Awareness Alliance (MYAA)
NRI´s for Secular And Harmonious India (NRI-SAHI)
Policy Institute For Religion And State (PIFRAS)
Sikh American Heritage Organisation (SAHO)
Sneha (A network for women of South Asian origin)
Vedanta Society of East Lansing
World Tamil Organisation (WTO)
Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR)
There are three Poddars, all from the same family, with six organisations between them – Shrikumar Poddar, President, India Foundation, USA (this is besides his avatars in the Vedanta Society and Hindu Vaishnava Center for Enlightenment), who is also co-founder of the pompous-sounding NRI SAHI or Non-Resident Indians for a Secular and Harmonious India (whatever that may mean); Mayurika Poddar, Vice-President, Seva International, USA; and Devesh Poddar, Treasurer, Coalition for India, Undergraduate Students, USA. There is no other information about Shrikumar except that he happily signs any letter drafted by the anti-Hindu Marxist, Muslim and Missionary gang in the USA to lend their various causes a Hindu touch. He is the ´Hindu´ drop that flavours the pretentious and blatantly false ´multi-religious´ claim of this NGO coalition against the RSS. The three members of the family besides Sripada Raju can ensure four signatures amongst themselves citing four organisations, or four names citing six organisations, to all letters and petitions drafted by this group. Similarly, while these two so-called ´Hindu´ organisations have at least the two names, Poddar and Raju as signatories, the Dharma Megha, which is also a part of the Coalition Against Genocide has neither a website nor a person´s name. We also do not know if it is another pretentious ´Hindu´ or even a pseudo ´Buddhist
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I don’t think she is a good choice, but Obama administration has already appointed Clinton era pro Zionists and this is the ‘ CHANGE ‘ he delivers.
Till 2001 Sonal Shah was national coordinator for VHPA, does that sound good??
pls read
http://www.counterpunch.org/prashad11072008.html
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yaaRRee sonal shah?!
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If Sonal Shah disavowed her links to VHP to gain power in high office it is understandable. Because the position held by her is required for more work to be done.
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Sisya,
Sonal shah USalli obbalu desi piguru.
See:
Seems to be a combination of looks and brains.
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PAyal- congrats for the detailed note. I knew daal main kaala hain- but never knew same family signed up for 4 different organizations. Big Hoax- who have presence more on ENglish media than reality.
They are used by many evangelical US law makers to further their political interest.
But amongst NRIs, they exist more in paper- than in reality.
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C – “World Hindu Council of America, founded in 1970 and incorporated in the state of New York in 1974, is a nonprofit, tax exempt volunteer-based charitable organization serving the needs of Hindu community(who believe in, practice, or respect the spiritual and religious principles having origins in Bharat(India) which includes Jains, Buddhists, Sikhs and people of various religious sects within the Hindu Ethos) in US with a grand vision of building a dynamic Hindu society inspired by the eternal values of Dharma and the lofty ideal of Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam meaning ‘The entire creation is one family.’”
– Why “with a bias against Muslims” necessarily? And what is otherwise wrong with this Mission Statement?
At least these Hindus are true to their US hosts in that there is no agenda to subvert it’s national ethic….completely unlike that of the Muslims. Yes, here is the “bias” against Muslims if your looking for one.
Kkr – Why does this sound wrong to you?
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Stupid idiots!
Apart from the common allegations against VHP, evangelists are sore that VHP is preempting their opportunities.
VHP and organisations closely related to it(not Sangh Parivar’s other affiliates even) run many decent and successful schools in underdeveloped & tribal areas.
One of the organisations famous for its fund raising marathons and commie, hotheaded founder also supports few schools near mysore by providing them teaching aids! :D
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Here we go again whining about someone who has renounced everything Indian for Uncle Sam’s green card and wudnt keep poking their nose in India’s internal affairs by supporting divisive organisations in India.
BTW, Sonal shah has been hired to advice Obama on economics and not on his India policy..
And Modi didn’t orchestrate the Godhra massacre..it was by Muslims.. Modi is guilty of not upholding his rajadharma in the aftermath of the Godhra massacre.
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As per comment by C
Hindu is equal to Fundamentalist!! C probably is a madrasa graduate
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Would Obama bring Sonal into his team without any knowledge about her background or affiliations? Would his people not have gone through reasearch into Sonal’s life? If Obama is not worried about it, who are these progressine charectors to object?
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@ Chockalingam….
per the secular fart Vijay Parshad …Sonal Shah also responsible for ENRON scandal…
Nowhere is the jaundiced nature of Prashad’s article clearer than in this line from the second paragraph:
“Shah, a product of the University of Chicago, shined her corporate shoes at Anderson Consulting (who was Enron’s accountant), which probably made it easier for her to go into Clinton’s Treasury Department, where she helped Robert Rubin put a U. S. stamp on the post-1997 Asian economic recovery”
Here are views from Pakistanis…( source Reuben Abrahams blog -Zoo Station)
Bilaal Ahmed, the founder of IMPAK (http://www.impak.org/about/)
(-A pakistani version of Indicorps) spoke up for Sonal today.
Pakistan Has a Friend in Sonal Shah.
Back in 2004, it was Sonal Shah who was my inspiration for starting a Pakistan volunteer program, later mentoring me to help make that vision a reality. Impak is now an active service corps program that addresses some of Pakistan’s most pressing challenges, including relief following the 2005 South Asia earthquake.
Sonal, along with her brother Anand and sister Roopal, have always been available when we’ve had a question or requested a meeting. I remember her making time at cafe at midnight in Manhattan when a colleague and I were in driving from DC to Connecticut. When I would catch her in DC, often unannounced, she would take time out to listen to my challenges and concerns and consistently offer solid advice. She always gave more than I expected and encouraged me to tap into Indicorps’s resources.
There has already been an outpouring of support from people of all backgrounds in support of Sonal. It is clear that the smears against her are baseless and contradict everything that she has worked for and believed in. As a Pakistani-American who has been dedicated to promoting development in Pakistan, I have always found a stalwart supporter in Sonal.
Let me be absolutely clear: Sonal Shah has wanted nothing but the best for Pakistan and its Muslims.
Her ideas and vision go beyond ethnic and religious divisions and instead puts emphasis on progress, development, and the power of the individual. The fact that President-Elect Obama has selected her speaks to his campaign of change, inclusiveness, and community. I believe that Sonal is a fantastic addition to the Obama transition team and someone that all South Asians can be especially proud of.
Congratulations, Sonal. We at Impak will support you as you have always supported us.
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Hardly.
Maybe I wasn’t clear enough but I meant to point out that the VHP wants to create a specifically “Hindu society” as opposed to a secular society or a dynamic Indian society. Creating a specifically Hindu society in a country which contains 170 million minority citizens is fundamentalist, anti-secular and goes against everything the fathers of our nation fought and died for. It is scary how similar that vision statement is to the Nazi vision statement – just replace Hindu society in India with Aryan society in Germany. Of course, I expect to be bashed for the comparison, but it just goes to show how right-wing and Fundamentalist the VHP is. And of course, Ms.Sen knew all this given her family’s ties to the organisation – plus she was an adult at the time of her association. So yes, I stand by my claim that she is a Hindu Fundamentalist.
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“It is true that it may not be as secular as other equally well known educational NGOs like Pratham or Asha.”
Everyday, people give new definitions to secularism in India.
“But the very fact of the association of Abid Hussein, former Indian Ambassador to the US, with Ekal shows that it is not a fundamentalist organization as is being portrayed by these “progressive” groups”
So, if you are associated with a Muslim ambassador, then you are not a fundamentalist association.
In other words, for Hindus to build any organizations which is not fundamentalist, they should have a muslim in there and that muslim should certify it so.
Mr. Shenoy, thanks for the new theory.
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C – You have made some assertions about the VHP. Can you provide basis for them? How is a “Hindu” society different from a “secular” society or even a “dynamic Indian society”, given that over 80% of our people are Hindu and the rest interact with Hindus daily in some way or manner?
What is a “specifically Hindu society”? What does this entail for you that can be so detrimental to minorities in India?
How is the VHPA’s vision statement similar to the Nazi vision statement? The Nazis believed in the superiority of the “Aryan” Race. They based their theory on grounds tenuous. Are you saying the VHPA has a similar thought process? What Race does the VHP believe in?
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C is a classic selective secularist. He is brazenly branding VHP, which according to himself says ‘vasudaiva kutumbakam’ and has a clear agenda of welfare of ‘only Hindus’.
So what do you call the people who follow the 6th century manifesto to dominate the world. What would you call the people who follow the manifesto which clearly says they are superior and they are supposed make everyone fall in line with them and eliminate those who resist? What would you call the people people who clearly has the agenda (Vatican would like to ‘save’ all of Asia’s lost, pagan souls in this century.) to convert by brainwashing native people their ‘gods’ are inferior?
If working exclusively for the welfare of Hindus is fundamentalism, abrahamics, mullaists and missionists are all terrorists. If defending our own is fundamentalism, then what is offending others on a daily basis? They are all terrorists. None exempted.
Are we in agreement, Mr. C?
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Everybody condemns Sonal Shah, but nobody gives two hoots to Gospel thumping Nick Rathod (of Indian origin), new member of Obama team. This shows how DOUBLE STANDARD Indian ‘leftist’ like Prasad, or silly Indian media follows.
Here is one article that Nick Rathod wrote in Sep 2006- clearly identifying himself with evangelical rightwing.
http://www.civilrights.org/library/features/op-ed-offending-american-and-christian-principles-the-public-expression-of-religion-act-of-2005.html
“The primary purpose of separating church and state is to assure that freedoms–including religion–are not compromised. Billy Graham has stated, “To tie the Gospel to any political system, secular program, or society is wrong and will only serve to divert the Gospel. The Gospel transcends the goals and methods of any political system or any society, however good it may be.”
What this means, HINDU RIGHT IS TO BE CONDEMNED, BUT RIGHTWING XTIANITY IS ALRIGHT. Nobody raised any fingure against open evangelical background of Nick Rathod.
Indian media is either unaware, or wilfully collaborating with Gospel thumping Xtian right to denigrate Hindu right. This is neither secularism, or free speech, or freedom of religion. This is absolute double standard which smacks racial discrimination which is not much different from religious fundamentalism.
Its this abuse of Hinduism, indic culture by missionaries that made revival of Hinduism in late 19th Century in the form of educated middle class like Swami Dayanand, Swami Vivekanand, Sri Aurobindo…..By openly showing hostiliy Indian media is asking for history to be repeated.
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Eminent social scientist Dr.Pandey’s take on this subject
http://pandey.ru/blog/valentinadimitrieva/31/president-elect-obamas-challenge/
” Noted Feminist scholar and biologist Dr. Alexandra Bremer wrote in the early 1980s of how associated guilt is inherited and therefore should be consciously cleansed in order to compensate for the evils of our history. In Dr Bremer’s thesis, no woman could be a True Feminist because they all had men as their fathers, and therefore were bound to be tainted by this patriarchy.
Crucially, Bremer goes on to point that the only way to atone for this inherent pollution is to make conscious efforts to eradicate the vestiges of the old. She referred to this process as synthesistic revolution. It involved a total denial and rejection of the paternal genetic inheritances. This was often acheived by simple acts such as defacing the father-image in the family album, or in certain required extreme circumstances, patricide.
…
In the Randall Zakuroff chair, we are of the opinion that Bremer’s theory offers solutions beyond the field of gender studies ” and into pseudo-secularism.
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With the friends like these progressives, who try to pull the leg of any Indian who is on the assent, India and Indian causes do not need enemies. These villainic progressives do not realise what kind of image of India and Indians they are painting abroad – Indians at the throat of other Indians! Don’t these people have any self-respect or pride in being Indian?
There seems to be a systematic attempt to project all Gujaratis as pro-Modi and anti-Mulsim. Forget being anti-Muslim, is being pro-Hindu per force mean that the person is anti-Hindu?
I would not be wrong in concluding that these progressives are definitely anti-Hindu and have to be dealt with not as mere dissidents within Hindu society, but as enemies out to destroy Hindus and Hindu society.
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Working exclusively for the welfare of Hindus is not fundamentalism. Let people work whoever they want for. It becomes fundamentalism when people start bombing, destroying, maiming, raping and looting in the name of ‘saving religion’ or ‘saving Hindus’.
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Palahalli – Sir, if you cannot see that the VHP’s goal of a Hindu society in India (as opposed to a secular society) is fundamentally contradictory to our constitution and our founder’s vision, and, indeed, to the notion that all humans are equal regardless of religion, then I think you need to study our history a little more and get back to me.
shyodha – You have an interesting point though you miss the fact that the VHP has a distinctly political agenda which will affect all citizens of the nation. If they were merely working for the welfare of Hindus, while I would still be uneasy with their preference for one group of human beings over another, I would not be as worried. Their mission statement clearly states that they have a political vision for India in that they want to make the nation a Hindu nation (similar to the Islamic nations of the middle east – e.g. The Islamic Republic of Pakistan). As for your somewhat off-topic questions let me say that I unequivocally condemn all religious organisations which attempt to impose their ideology on political systems or nations as a whole. The Vatican, in my opinion, is definitely corrupt, narrow-minded and religiously fundamentalist. However, I have yet to perceive the level of hatred of other religions in the Vatican that I routinely see from members of the VHP, RSS and some in the BJP too. These organisations, which I comment on because of their relevance to the topic at hand, routinely spew hatred against the Muslim and Christian communities of our great land. It seems that they resent the Muslims and Christians even living in India and see India as the ‘Land of the Hindus’. Certainly you could say that Muslims and Christians came after Hindus though is that grounds to spew such hatred against them? They have been here for at least 500 years and if they committed atrocities 500 years ago does that justify persecuting their 15th generation descendants today for what happened centuries ago? India is not the land of the Hindu’s. It is the land of Indians which includes every religious grouping residing here. Now if you understand that, then you will find exactly what is objectionable about the VHP’s mission statement that they want to create a Hindu society.
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a) Here’s Barack Obama very clearly stating ( http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1646743/mccain_obama_bare_souls_at_saddleback_cbn_com/)
that he believes in Jesus Christ and that Jesus died for man’s sins etc. The TV channel is Christian Broadcasting Network (CBN which is present in India as http://www.cbnindia.org in Hyd) owned by Pat Robertson founder of the Christian Coalition, a strong right wing Christian group that had huge influence over the Bush Presidency. Is Obama a fundamentalist? What would’ve been the reaction in India if a Hindu leader had said similar things?
b) Tony Blair (former British PM) now leactures on Faith at Yale University’s Divinity School. He’s a recent convert to Catholicism and is quite open about his faith. Is he fundamentalist? What would’ve happened if a Hindu leader were to do the same thing?
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If Sonal Shah disavowed her links to VHP to gain power in high office it is understandable. Because the position held by her is required for more work to be done.
oh… Bobby Jindal also did something very close to this. Simply he converted himself to a pentacost christian so that he can have more acceptability in the American Society.
Sickos these desi’s they will go to any extent to full fill their American Dreams, nothing surprising after all their fathers and fore-fathers migrated to clean the toilets of white men!
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karihaida….
In the Randall Zakuroff chair, we are of the opinion that Bremer’s theory offers solutions beyond the field of gender studies ”
goLL!!! hahahahaha…. had not laffed so hard in a while.
synthesistic revolution!!! hahahahahaha!! hahahahaha..
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What credible evidence do these CAG guys have agains this person other than hot gas, if there is one can they put it forward for Obamas office to see else they should keep their smelly stinky mouth shut, redirecting to urls with articles written by the CAG cronies cannot be considered evidence and Obama is more smarter then all these useless group of people who have nothing (credible) to show for any interest in the countries future.
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TS,
check out the other posts in that blog. Pure genius that dude…
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Vinay – Religious Fundamentalism is a simple term that defines those folks who like to stick with the fundamentals of faith.
Let’s leave bombing aside a moment.
The rest falls under rioting in the Indian context.
If you have to include “bombing”, then, you may even call this terrorism, but not “Hindu” terrorism as one may mean Islamic terrorism. A lot of people ignore the fact that Islamic terrorism has apart from the negative, (ie fighting against their enemies), a “positive” content in that these terrorists seek to impose their “world view” upon their opponents. One will be hard pressed to site a so called Hindu terrorist who want to impose his ways on Muslims or any other.
Again I wish to say that in our day, Terrorism is defined so by scale and method. If this is not correct, then a “wife beater” can be locked up for “terrorism”.
*****
C – Shri C here seems to be saying two things. One, that there is no such thing as a Hindu society and hence must be created by the subject organization, VHP. Or else, is Shri C confusing Hindu “society” for “Rashtra”? If that is in fact what he is saying, then he is closer to the truth even though the VHP focuses on religious revival and religious organization of Hindu society that forms an important component of our Rashtra’s revival. Is there something wrong with this idea? Only if one sees in it a deliberate and solely negative plan to subdue non-Hindus. I do not see it that way. It is true and accepted by opponents of Hindu revival, that Hinduism has been plagued by a lot of weaknesses and social ills. But unlike Hinduism’s opponents, we do not wish to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We wish to rid Hinduism of its various weaknesses and make it strong for itself. How can one do this without inculcating pride in one’s heritage? It is this exercise that rankles our liberals including Shri C.
If I may—–
In his response to Smt (I presume) Shyodha, Shri C seems to recognize the Rashtra that I spoke of earlier but quickly relapses. Is he against the Rashtra or is it the “society” he is fundamentally against? Given the fact that aiding it makes him uneasy. Does he then wish for the Hindus to self destruct?
That the Mission Statement reflects a “Political Agenda” is not true. It’s straight forward in its apolitical scope. If it is not, then Shri C must back his case stronger.
Any number of books on Hindu Rashtra, and even the ones written by opponents, does not speak of this Rashtra as similar to the various Islamic theocracies. How can a Hindu Rashtra be so? Hinduism is simply not built like Islam. If you listen to Hindu Rashtra’s proponents themselves, and these are the folks one must listen to to know what this Rashtra is; they do not speak of it in Islamic terms. In fact, they speak of it in glowing “secular” terms. True secularism, they call it. I do not subscribe to this “secularism”, and not because I believe in the Islamic model :)
They even call for a Uniform Civil Code! Which Islamic nation calls for a UCC for heavens sakes!? Savarkar himself was an atheist. You will find innumerable Hindu Rashtra-vadis who are not devout. Even against religious practice.
The Vatican and its tentacles do not need to “display” its darker side because these people are superbly sophisticated in the manner they sell themselves. Here, Hindus can well learn some lessons.
There is one question for Shri C though. When you say you are against VHP’s Hindu “society” drive because that is not secular, will you extend yourself to say you are against all Christian and Islamic organizations helping their own, because these are not secular? And I mean all over the world. Are you fine with the logical deduction of dismemberment of all religions? If you think this is not practical, will you then promise to step aside while the Hindus organize?
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Clash – Why would you be against a Bobby Jindal converting in order to represent his people? He is an American is he not? In fact, I have great respect for him and I would posit him against a Sonia Gandhi who has not assimilated and yet wants to rule. Jindal has ceased being a “desi”. He is an American, plain and simple.
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Mr C proclaims thus:
=>The Vatican, in my opinion, is definitely corrupt, narrow-minded and religiously fundamentalist. However, I have yet to perceive the level of hatred of other religions in the Vatican that I routinely see from members of the VHP, RSS and some in the BJP too.<=
Mr. C, you clearely can not see or perceive. The kind hatred Vatican has spewed throughout history is unparallel in non-Abrahamic culture. The genocidal actions encouraged by Vatican has no parallel in Indic culture. Even today, Vatican sponsored bible channels spew hatred openly denigrating non-Christians declaring the need to “save” the souls.
Either you are joking when you say that you actually “see” hatred from member od VHP. RSS and BJP or you are a bigot who hates Indians and Hindus. At least have the decency to admit what you are and stop pretending to be some kind of equalizer who throws “bones” such as ‘The Vatican, in my opinion, is definitely corrupt’.
As soon a false-secularist tries equating native way of life of India which encourages open thought to barbarian ways of Abrahamics, I know the debate is over.
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The answer to this question: “When you say you are against VHP’s Hindu “society” drive because that is not secular, will you extend yourself to say you are against all Christian and Islamic organizations helping their own, because these are not secular? And I mean all over the world. Are you fine with the logical deduction of dismemberment of all religions?”
The answer is yes. I am generally against all religious organisations that promote the concept of a religious state.
As far as the dismemberment of all religions goes, I certainly would welcome that as a step forward for humanity.
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shyoda says – “As soon a false-secularist tries equating native way of life of India which encourages open thought to barbarian ways of Abrahamics, I know the debate is over.”
Sigh. I feel nothing but pity for you for branding all “Abrahamics” as barbarians.
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C – There can be no conversation with anybody who has the dismemberment of Hinduism as goal.
Again, Liberals have proven themselves to be traitors to their civilization.
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@C,
Anyday a polytheistic society is better than a monotheistic society.
That way I support any organization that tries to peacefully create multi cultural/polytheistic/liberal/free societies as long as they don’t want to subjugate other cultures/beliefs in the process of creating such a society..
Look at Nagaland or Kashmir valley – these are examples of monotheistic societies created (mostly with support from foreign forces/money).
Remaining India is a better place to live because of predominance of polytheism – polytheists are super flexible in that they can worship a phallus and instantly migrate to worship a cross (Gunadala Mary mata temple) or a spaghetti monster or who knows the middle-finger in the future :-)
If VHP talks about Hindu causes what is wrong? If they call themselves VSP – Viswa Secular Parishat and then espouse Hindu causes then it is wrong..
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C – do not put words in my keyboard. Or you can not comprehend the difference between ‘abrahamics’ and ‘barbarian ways of abrahamics’?
You need the sympathy; not me. At best you are living in a self-denial utopian world; if that is the case, try living in one of the “universal ummah brotherhood-all are equal except arabs/muslims” countries for a cure. At worst you are a proponent of decimation of India’s native way of life. Either way, a sad state.
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I didn’t put any words in your mouth, shyoda. These are your exact words – “As soon a false-secularist tries equating native way of life of India which encourages open thought to barbarian ways of Abrahamics, I know the debate is over.”
Palahalli – My goal is not the dismemberment of Hinduism. I just stated that I would welcome the dismemberment of all religions should that happen. I have no goal per se, but for the sake of this conversation you could say that my goal is the preservation of a secular, multi-ethnic, non-religious State of India. That doesn’t mean that the people in the state have to be atheists, but that the State as a whole musn’t identify with one particular religion over others a la the Islamic Republic of Iran.
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C for Communist?
=>I just stated that I would welcome the dismemberment of all religions should that happen.<=
You are sugesting social engineering a la Mao, Stalin and Lenin. I am sure millions of dead people appreciate your line of thinking.
By the way, try and figure out the difference between ‘abrahamics’ and ‘barbarian ways of abrahamics’.
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C – You seem to be utterly confused. Let me explain;
The State is the political structure through which a people represent themselves. This “people” generally are the “Nation”. When people speak of “separating the Church from the State” they mean separating religion from governance. This is a by product of what happened in Europe with the Church and its interference in governance of various Christian Nations.
When you prescribe “a secular, multi-ethnic, non-religious State of India”, you must mean a government that is represented by various Indian ethnicities. That is what we have today. But I think you are meaning this prescription for our society ie, Nation. This is the classic Liberal prescription in the US and India. What this means, in practice, is that the Majority will give up its identity in order that the Minority is accommodated and feels “welcome”. As you can see, the Minority identity remains intact. Indeed it must or else the “National Majority” will attract the opprobrium of being Fascist and hegemonic.
Why take Iran as an example? These are extreme cases. There are several countries that are both religious and ensure fairness in their governance. We must remember that Hindus welcomed diverse people when their States were Hindu.
I think Multi-Cultural play must remain within bounds. If cannot and must not be allowed to dictate any and every policy in our land. There must be a Majority core in place that will help preserve the National culture. The others may embellish this National culture but must not replace it either by themselves or by proxy. This is only fair.
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Shyoda – you no longer deserve my time.
Palahalli – I fail to see your point. I see nothing in our current secular constitution that prevents a Hindu from having his own identity. I do not see how and by whom the majority is being forced to “give up its identity”. You are still free to be a Hindu under the constitution just as a Muslim is free to be a Muslim. You must explain how you feel your identity is being threatened by a secular nation and what changes you would bring about and whether the VHP embodies or would embody those changes.
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C – The issue is of security and this is directly connected with a sense of identity in being Hindu.
If I were rhetorical, I would say, “Where can the Hindus go? Can they seek the support of the Vatican and its untrammeled influence in the Western World? Can they look toward the West and the East of Asia for Islamic sustenance? Who but the Hindus themselves, can stop themselves from drowning?!”
India is the last bastion of the Pagans. There is no other land on this Earth that will be home to our culture. We do not even want any.
Now for Bullet Points;
1. Infiltrators from Bangladesh – What is the Secular position Vis a Vis Hindu prospects in the border areas and inside? What is the Secular position on this movement into India per se?
2. Kashmir’s Status (370 et al,) – What is the Secular position Vis a Vis Hindu/Buddhists and their prospects?
3. Naxalism – What is the Secular position on its containment? The Salwa Judum, a unique effort has already been strangled.
4. Reservations for Minorities – What is the Secular position?
5. Dealing with Terror – What is the Secular strategy?
6. Hindu Sanghatan – Why does the Secular establishment oppose it?
I would like to correct you wrt a serious misconception you carry;
We are NOT a Secular Nation. We ARE a Secular State. Our people ARE NOT Secular. They are deeply religious.
My identity as a Hindu is threatened by the utter apathy of this our Secular State.
What was the cause for sending an Indian governmental delegation to the Vatican on occasion of Alphonsa’s Sainthood? Which British (only because it has comparable Hindu percentages) government has represented thus its 2% or more Hindu population? I do not even wish that for Britain.
Why does our Secular establishment hanker after OIC recognition? I hate to use links in my posts but this was just right;
http://www.hindu.com/2006/01/30/stories/2006013004291000.htm
Why do you think such things happen? Would anybody even be talking about it if it were not for Hindu orgs creating a ruckus? That is the job of the VHP and the rest. To create awareness and at the same time ensure that such things do not recur.
Given this Secular/Liberal mentality of our State and Anglaise’ intelligentsia, how can anybody pretend Hindus are not under siege?
The reason our Hindu majority and its identity is sought to be weakened is now obvious.
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If I were rhetorical, I would say, “Where can the Hindus go? ” – They can stay right where they are.
1. Infiltrators from Bangladesh – Illegal Immigration is a problem, no one doubts that. The issue is not one of the secular fabric of the nation versus a ‘Hindu’ nation.
2. Kashmir’s Status – I see no problem with the ‘secular’ status. The issue needs to be finally and completely solved to bring peace to the region and thus reduce our spending on wasteful bombs and plough it into education and health.
3. Naxalism – I know of no particular ‘secular position.
4. Reservations for Minorities – It is blatantly clear that lower-castes and minorities have lower achievement levels. This is an empirical result that can be tested through scientific surveys. How are you proposing to fix this if not for reservations aka Affirmative Action?
Terrorism – All murders must be stopped and terrorists jailed. No difference.
You see, there is nothing wrong with any of the positions of the ‘secularists’. In fact, they are more logical than any of the fundamentalist positions.
In any case, I doubt you and I will ever agree so lets leave it at that.
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I am surprised people still fall for the traps of commies. Please read
http://www.letindiadevelop.org/
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C – Please stay. I’m not trying to convert you. All I want to know is if your stance is based on logic and facts.
When I spoke rhetorically, I meant to drive home the point that Hindus, as a civilization, have no “brethren” with whom to share their concerns. If Hindus get a raw deal in this country, they cannot run to the Vatican, like our Christians do. Crude but true. And then, there is no point in “staying here” if their culture cannot be nourished.
1. Infiltrators from Bangladesh – Illegal Immigration is a problem, no one doubts that. The issue is not one of the secular fabric of the nation versus a ‘Hindu’ nation.
* Really? Why do you think these millions of infiltrators are harbored by our liberals? Why do you think measures to deport them are opposed? By the liberals. It is this harboring and encouraging criminal behavior such as this, that raises the hackles of Hindus. Land and resources are depleted apart displacing Hindus in border areas. What do you say?
2. Kashmir’s Status – I see no problem with the ’secular’ status. The issue needs to be finally and completely solved to bring peace to the region and thus reduce our spending on wasteful bombs and plough it into education and health.
* How do you intend to “solve” this problem? Is Kashmir’s special status “secular”? If yes, how?
3. Naxalism – I know of no particular ’secular position.
* Are you not aware that Liberals see Naxals as some kind of Robin Hoods?
4. Reservations for Minorities – It is blatantly clear that lower-castes and minorities have lower achievement levels. This is an empirical result that can be tested through scientific surveys. How are you proposing to fix this if not for reservations aka Affirmative Action?
* I have not spoken against Dalit reservations. I support that. But Minorities? Which ones? Christians? The “Dalit” variety? Muslims? All of them? And why?
Terrorism – All murders must be stopped and terrorists jailed. No difference.
* So, Terrorists are common garden variety murderers, period. No difference at all. You jail them and you stop Terrorism :)
You see, there is nothing wrong with any of the positions of the ’secularists’. In fact, they are more logical than any of the fundamentalist positions.
* I’m waiting for your logical responses.
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Btw, I am yet to hear your views on OIC and the Alphonsa shebang.
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“If Hindus get a raw deal in this country, they cannot run to the Vatican, like our Christians do.”
See, here is the problem. I do not see how a secular government = a raw deal for Hindu’s. Secular governments are neutral between religions and thus are an equal deal for all people and NOT a raw deal for Hindus.
You see, the fundamental disagreement between you and me is that you place Hindu’s and the Hindu civilization on a pedestal. That is, instead of saying “Land and resources are depleted apart displacing Hindus in border areas,” I would say Land and resources are depleted displacing Human Beings in border areas. To me, Hindus are simply Human Beings, like all other Human beings, no more special and no less special. Also, I am not one of those conventional ‘liberals’ who condones immigration. I think that infiltration is definitely a problem regardless whether they are depleting the resources of Indian Hindu’s or displacing Indian Muslims or Sikhs. The fact is that they are a drain on Indian resources. No disagreement apart from the
Also, you think that I am one of the ‘conventional’ liberals that have contradictory positions on things like Article 370. I fully agree that there is a contradiction between demanding Kashmir be part of India and granting it a special status under article 370 such that it is not to be governed by laws enacted by the Indian Parliament. This is why I place a stress on somehow finding a mutually-acceptable solution to the issue so that we can move forward (say, accepting the LOC as a border) and actually integrate the part we have into India abolishing Article 370. For historical reasons, however, the Kashmiri people have not identified themselves as Indians. That much is indisputable. This, then, poses practical problems for us when we try and impose Indian laws on them even if we do have the moral right to do so. That is why it is best to come to an agreement on the issue and then integrate them into India instead of trying to integrate them before a solution is reached. Is that clear enough?
I don’t see Naxal’s as Robin Hoods, though obviously there is a cause-effect relationship at work. Naxal’s dont just appear out of thin air – they are created because of some grievances. If acknowledging the existence of grievances is a crime, then sure, i’m guilty.
I only support reservations for those sections of society which have statistically lower achievement levels whoever they may be – dalits, muslims, other low castes, whoever. I make no distinction based on name.
Terrorism – Of course their motivations are different from garden variety murderers. They are funded and promoted from outside forces and are intended to destabilize the nation. However, addressing terrorism is intimately connected with achieving peace with Pakistan. Without a peace with Pakistan there is no solution to terrorism. Thus, in the short term, the only viable solution is to hang them and try and halt infiltration. Of course, you could go to war with Pakistan over it, but that will only inflame the problem – not solve it. The only solution is a mutually agreed one in this case.
I really don’t see the big problem you have with OIC and Alphonsa. They are trivial issues. Spell out your actual problem and I shall respond.
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I think that one can take small satisfaction that only 1% read the so called “secular” newspapers.
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I think there is a thorough misunderstanding about the term “fundamentalism” Vinay seems to think that killing and bombing is fundamentalism. It is not. Fundamentalism is an attempt to return to the scriptures of a given religion in its purest form. For Muslims, attempt to return to what are considered as pure Islamic practices of the times of the Prophet would be fundamentalism. Fundamentalism requires assertion that one’s religion alone is true and all the others are false. For christians, claims that christ alone is the saviour and through him alone, salvation is possible is a fundamentalist belief. A fundamentalist does not give scope to consider the cliam of truth in other religions. Any deviation from the fundamental tents of religions professed amounts to “kufr”, and “shirk” to borrow from Islam.
In this sense, fundamentalism is not possible in Hinduism. Being a polytheistic religion, Hinduism admits of almost any belief to be professed by its followers. In fact, a person who claims to be a Hindu need not adhere to even minimal observations of religious practices. On the other hand, a Muslim cannot claim to be one, unless he believes in Shahada, performs salat, goes on Haj and observes fasting. A christian cannot but seek salvation through Christ. In this sense, where is fundamentalism in Hinduism.
In a way, communism is also a prophetic religion. Its prophet is Karl Marx. Its diety is Historical dialectics. Its cannonised saints are Engles, Lenin, and the like. (I would rather not name other monsters who have murdered millions).
Only the prophetic religions can be fundamentalist. All extremists or radicals are not fundamentalists.
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C – My responses;
See, here is the problem. I do not see how a secular government = a raw deal for Hindu’s. Secular governments are neutral between religions and thus are an equal deal for all people and NOT a raw deal for Hindus.
**** Are you by any chance mixing up “Secularism” in theory with “Secularism” in practice in this country? Or if you believe India is theoretically and in practice, a Secular State, then please explain the Liberal opposition to the Uniform Civil Code.
You see, the fundamental disagreement between you and me is that you place Hindu’s and the Hindu civilization on a pedestal.
*** Let me ask you a question. During the anti-Christian violence, did you happen to oppose interference from the Vatican, the US, France and the rest? Did you happen to oppose Sarkozy’s lecture to Singh while politely declining to discuss the Sikh turban issue? Did you happen to oppose the Islamic countries when they officially protested the demolition of the Babri Masjid?
****On infiltration, why should you bother at all then? What is so special about being Indian? Aren’t Bangladeshis “Human Beings”? Is it not most sublime and humane to support them too? How do you resolve this inner contradiction in your stance?
****On Kashmir, unfortunately you are not clear at all.
Art 370 with its special status pertains to Kashmir, period. It has nothing to do with Pakistan. It takes a 2/3’s vote in the J & K assembly to dismantle it. Why am I not hopeful? Again, by speaking of “imposing Indian laws” on them, you automatically have done two things;
1. Accepted that Kashmir is not Indian.
2. Admitted that Kashmir chooses not to be governed by Indian laws even while purportedly, being Indian and gobbling up Indian resources.
Let’s admit to the larger Secular philosophy on Kashmir. That this state is a Jewel in our Secular crown because it proves that we have allowed a Muslim majority state to remain “unmolested”. Is your heart really in the abrogation of Art 370?
By accepting LOC, are you not legitimizing Pakistan’s occupation?
****All right. Naxals arose out of grievances. Would you then acknowledge that Hindus have grievances and can react the same way, all the while making you seem guilty for acknowledging them?
****Totally wrong on Reservations. Reservations for SCs arose because of historical disabilities imposed on them. These people did not choose to remain uneducated and miserable.
With Muslims, they have been rulers of this country. They chose their own model of “development”. Will you ask that Muslims admit to their failure before Reserving for them?
With Christians, they lured some Dalits by promising them revolutionary manna. Unfortunately, they don’t get to sit on the same pews nor be buried in the same grave yards! Will you ask that Christians admit to failure of Christianity’s proclaimed equality before Reserving for them?
May I remind you that Hindus admitted to their failure to treat Dalits with dignity? Thereby Reservations.
****On Terrorism, what do you think will satisfy Pakistan? Remember, you have not even bothered to make it realize “costs” for its actions.
Per yourself, the OIC issue, wherein the “Secular” Republic of India pines for place on the table meant for Islamic Nations, because it is home to the “second largest Muslim population in the world” is trivial.
Per yourself, the “Secular” Republic of India sending an OFFICIAL Governmental delegation headed by a Christian, to the Vatican to be present and give thanks for Sainting Alphonsa of Kerala, is trivial. I’m sure you had absolutely no objection to Liberal newspapers proclaiming Alphonsa as India’s “first woman Saint”. Or did you?
Awaiting your response.
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Dude, you didn’t even read my responses properly nor did you respond adequately. All you did was to ask rhetorical questions about other issues. For example your response to my point here was woefully inadequate:
You see, the fundamental disagreement between you and me is that you place Hindu’s and the Hindu civilization on a pedestal.
*** Let me ask you a question. During the anti-Christian violence, did you happen to oppose interference from the Vatican, the US, France and the rest? Did you happen to oppose Sarkozy’s lecture to Singh while politely declining to discuss the Sikh turban issue? Did you happen to oppose the Islamic countries when they officially protested the demolition of the Babri Masjid?
All you did was ask a question back to me without addressing the issue.
I really have no more energy to keep responding to question over question without any sort of systematic answers or conversation. Sorry, but I’m done. You can have the last word.
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C…in other words, a cop-out.
Any Liberals out there who want to pick up from where “C” ran off?
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Palahalli;
Superb arguments.. I can c C frothing at his mouth
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Secularism is a very good thing if it is practiced as it should be. That is the kind of secularism that we need. While secularism as it is practiced in India is not exactly fair, or is ‘pseudo’ as most fundamentalists put it, the reaction of maniacs is what we do NOT need.
What we need is a truly secular state, not fundamentalistm in the name of Hindus.
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Thank you C++
Java – Can you please be more specific?
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Annandiraada C, C++, Java avarugaLe
oLLe vaada madidira. C avru atlakade fullu objective-orientoo agade, itlakade fullu assembly language-oo agade oddadtavre. C avare, palahalli language questionsgale answergaLu. Adikkobedi.. horage banni
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@Assembly language
I completely agree with you. Some of C arguments are invalid.
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In India, rank communalism passes for secularism. Secularism in India is not about maintaining equal distance from all religions. It is about forces joining hands against Hindus and Hinduism. It is only in India that communists join hands with rank communal and fanatic muslim and charistian individuals and organisation and proclaim themselves to be secular. Elsewhere in the world, Muslims have killed communists and vice versa. Christians and churches have labelled communists as godless and satanic. But, within Indian borders, these differences do not seem to matter. Unfortunately, the foreign media eats out of the hands of Indian secular news media. Foreign media seems to think that secularists in India are same as secularists of Europe and elsewhere.
Though I hold no brief for BJP, I must say that BJPs manifesto is more secular. It wants to apply same law to all Indians, and treat all the States as equally under constitution, without the benefit of ARticle 370 etc. But, BJP is blamed as communal party, and not communists who sleep with rank communalists.
Leftists are the ones who shout the loudest when it comes to affixing the badge of criminality on others. It is for the accused to defend himself, in this case, herself. Thief joins the chasing crowd!
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C, C++, Java, Assembly Language, Machine Language,
What are you guys without me?!
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Transistor, what are you without me?
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@Transistor
You wouldn’t be born if not for me :)
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Why “Secularism”? I don’t believe it is important nor good.
Let’s remember that historically, Secularism has meant separation of “State from the “Church””, ie, separation from a “religious” authority. It did not mean, separation of the State from “God” itself. It is easy to see how today’s “secularism” has come to mean “godlessness” and even “anti-godism”. This is how ideologies deteriorate and degrade.
My proposal would be to revert to a State based in Dharma. God fullness rather than Godlessness.
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Poetic justice really.. the ATS chief who led the torture on hindu sadhvi be killed.. Why is the police not giving out names of the terrorists in bombay.. is is because they dont have names like pandey purohit etc?. Manmohan is rip van winkle now, after all the sleep he lost over haneef. dont be surpised if rajdeep sardesai implicates hindus..
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I would not question Shri Madesa’s anger wrt Shri H Karkare. It is valid in its place. However, it is also a fact that this same person gave his life in the line of duty. Surely this is the highest sacrifice? Apart from him, there have been at least 15 more officers who were killed.
Let us remember them and numerous civilian victims who have yet again been sacrificed at the alter of liberal treachery.
It is ironic that the ATS was in pursuit of folks who had made it their mission to end such terror as we witnessed in Mumbai yesterday….
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Avva Madesa is undoubtedly one of the biggest b******s alive for making the statement that he has. No point commenting more now – bums like him will not understand anyway..
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Vinay,
Wake up dude….
A lot of people think that ATS was being used by politicians to implicate a few people just to give the term ” hindu terrorism” a stamp of approval.
While none should rejoice the death of ATS chief, if thoughts veer towards that angel, no one but the politicians who manipulated and people who allowed themselves to be manipulated are to be blamed.
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The ATS chief went there to fight terrorists who had invaded (oh yes, this was a sae-based invasion, not an ‘ordinary’ attack) Indian soil and were indulging in wholesale massacre. “Anti Terror Squad” is meant to do that, right?
And guess what – Karkare was not obliged to be on the spot himself. He went there to do his job, got killed, and ‘Avva Madesa’, sitting in an air conditioned room is farting on the keyboard. Should this scumbag be garlanded with flowers now??
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Vinay,
You deserve to be in CNN IBN.. not churumuri… there are ample positions waiting..you can then suck up to terrorists in public.. good luck
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Avva Madesa:
What do you mean, “Suck up to terrorists”? Who is doing that now? CNN IBN? Or me? Don’t make empty comments without any substance. Even our politicians are not playing games at this point of time, they’re showing solidarity for the first time in their lives, and you raise a stink here..
Karkare and the other officers who died were people with a known record of excellent service. They were among the most professional men in the force, and the most skilled. Thats why they were in the “ATS”.
Go, hang yourself, please!
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I enjoyed reading the comments. The only thing I have to say is that if there is a group whose mission statetement is promoting, protecting and preserving Hinduism – then sign me up. I will never apologize for that. Swami Vivekananda said that anybody who brings Vedanta to the people is doing a noble job.
Shri C said that “the difference between you and me is that you put Hindusim to pedestal” – Holy Cow, you bet we do and we should do and hence we are called Hindus exactly the same way a Muslim or a Christian does to his faith. Anybody who has read a piece of the Vedanta will put Hinduism in a pedestal, it is the ignorants who wont. Reading Shri C who has ‘left the building’ left me with no doubt that he is obviously a fundamentalist of his own kind.
Finally, Supporting Sonal is the right thing to do – though the way it was done by the author is questionable and lacks conviction.
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